Electro Pedal Steel Build

[Jacobus De Bruyn]

Hi All
I thought I will send you some pictures of my newly build Electro Pedal steel.
As a C6 Lap Steel player I decided to build another Lap Steel that I can set on E9. As I completed the Lap Steel, I found that E9 work more on a Pedal Steel, so I converted it to a Pedal Steel with a twist.
This steel does not have pulling rods. I use servo motors to pull the strings to its desire positions. The Pedals at the bottom I use WIFI communication to the main controller in the guitar.
The guitar work surprisingly well with the setup I have.
So, what can the guitar do - I can change from E9 to C6 with the flick if a switch. I can initialize the guitar as Standard E9 or Universal or Nashville or Extended or whatever setup I require by uploading the existing code I completed or creating a new..
Currently the guitar is setup with Pedal A, B and C. If I use C6 them 3 Pedals become the traditional 1, 2 and 3. The plan is to add another 3 pedals. It also has knee levers Left & Right
.

[Gary Watkins]

Hi All
I thought I will send you some pictures of my newly build Electro Pedal steel.
As a C6 Lap Steel player I decided to build another Lap Steel that I can set on E9. As I completed the Lap Steel, I found that E9 work more on a Pedal Steel, so I converted it to a Pedal Steel with a twist.
This steel does not have pulling rods. I use servo motors to pull the strings to its desire positions. The Pedals at the bottom I use WIFI communication to the main controller in the guitar.
The guitar work surprisingly well with the setup I have.
So, what can the guitar do - I can change from E9 to C6 with the flick if a switch. I can initialize the guitar as Standard E9 or Universal or Nashville or Extended or whatever setup I require by uploading the existing code I completed or creating a new..
Currently the guitar is setup with Pedal A, B and C. If I use C6 them 3 Pedals become the traditional 1, 2 and 3. The plan is to add another 3 pedals. It also has knee levers Left & Right
.

If possible, please post a video and sound clip of your steel in action. GREAT!!!

[Jacobus De Bruyn]

I don't know if I can upload Videos.

[Gary Watkins]

I don't know if I can upload Videos.

PM sent

[Jacobus De Bruyn]

I have a question. With my Electro Steel I found that the normal strings over the counter keeps stretching. Every time I start playing I have to readjust. The strain is more as I change between Tunings, some strings need to stretch a full octave. What make strings will be a better string for Pedal strings. Do anybody have the same issue?

[John Hyland]

You have a few points to deal with.
All strings need to settle in but usually 4 or 6 tugs on the string will do it.
Also I think you are over optimistic to expect an octave change.
Nothing special about PSG guitar strings. I just use d’Addario singles.
Regarding the reset after each session I am wondering if you are getting movement in the actual structure of the steel.
Other wise an interesting project a would like to hear more on how responsive it is and the feel in comparison to a mechanical system.
Also it looks great.
Where in NSW are you.?

[Jacobus De Bruyn]

The strings seems to settle now. Thanks for your post.
I am in the Newcastle area NSW.
I previously tried to upload videos with no success, but to change from E9 to C6 one of the strings need to jump a octave and survive every change, fingers cross.

[Paul Strojan]

Could you control the servos to pull to a certain string tension rather than by distance? That should solve the issue with string stretching and cabinet drop.

[Jacobus De Bruyn]

My design at present is to pull the strings by measuring the degree of the servo arm. The accuracy is very good. After I tune the guitar on E9, that values become the constant of all the movements. When I switch from E9 to C6 it then also use the default values as a reference to change the tensions to C6.

To use tension to pull the strings is a great idea and I will make a test mock-up to see how accurate it is. I can install a strain gauge on the pulling arm and measure the spring tension that way.

I am however in the process to test a frequency reader that can re-adjust on the run. It can also be used to adjust real frequency during tuning. The counter will read the frequency directly from the pick-up which mean it will be 100% accurate. It will also have a warning LED to tell if a string is outside or near set values.

[Jacobus De Bruyn]

Hi all. Its a long time since I posted my first introduction of my Electro-Steel guitar build. I progressed up to the point where I can now play in E9 for the first time ever with my Electro-steel. Up to now I only played a Lap steel in C6. As lots have asked me to send a video of me playing, I attached a short video clip with the guitar. Its not the best clip as its not edited, and I am still learning. So since the last post I made some upgrades which includes new pedals. The pedals are used as A, B, C, D and E in setting one. Then on setting 2 the pedals are F, A, B, C and D. On setting 3 the tunings change from E9 to C6 and in this setting the pedals are used as traditional 1, 2, 3, 4 and 5. The changes between settings are done by one toggle switch. I also changed the feeling of the pedals so to get the feeling of a mechanical steel pedals. I also changed the knee levers to another design as can be seen on the pictures. I am really happy with the guitar so far as it performs as expected. There are however still future modifications that I will do, but for now I will concentrate to master the playing.


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[Larry Dering]

I don't see the sound demo link? Did you forget it? The build looks cool and complicated for the electronics. It would be a problem for the average player to make any repairs as opposed to a mechanical system. I applaud your efforts to refine and make a working prototype.

[Jacobus De Bruyn]

Hi thanks for your mail. To be honest, I think it’s not that complicated. Most appliances we use daily are more complicated. When I build another, the servos will be plug and play should you need to replace one for some reason. Other than that the program code, will be the complicated side of the guitar that never needs to change once commissioned. I designed it such that it is easy to adjust and operate. The initial setup is the same as any guitar. After that the rest of the adjustments are done in the code via a keypad. With the code, the sky is the limit. I don’ know how or where to upload a video, but will check how to.

[Jacobus De Bruyn]

Below a Link to a video I made. I will add more videos tomorrow.
https://youtu.be/Mfjc81kSHdI

[Jacobus De Bruyn]

Another video shortcut. Sorry for the quality, it's only to show the operation of the guitar.
https://youtu.be/__O_YAn24Z8

[Jacobus De Bruyn]

I completed my first Electro-Steel-Guitar and decided to build my next with a few upgrades to the existing. To align with Paul's suggestion and to test a new concept I decided to trial a concept to wind a pick-up individually as in the picture.
I tested 2 coils on 2 strings and the sound was great, hopefully it will be that way having 10 coils.
Did anybody tried this before? Any great ideas, how it can be used, any suggestions?

If all works out I will be used for the following:
Take the inputs of the 10 coils, take it through a multi mixer module where I can fine-tune the individual string volumes.
Keep the volume up as long as possible if needed.
Use the individual inputs to auto-tune the strings, or to monitor the string tension in Hertz.

Also my new guitar will have the following upgrades:
Be able to be re-handed easily between left- and right-handed.
Be able to change from E9 to C6 or any other tuning by a button press. ( this was tested and working on my first guitar)
All the other features on my first build will be on the second build as well.

[Tim Toberer]

I am very impressed with your guitar, nice job! I am kind of a luddite when it comes to most things, but I highly respect what you are doing. I think it is important for people to think outside the box. You are opening up a whole world of possibilities with this thing. Keep it up!

[Jacobus De Bruyn]

Hi Again. For you guitar builders, I need help with my design. My first Steel guitar body I build with a wooden frame with an 8mm aluminium plate on the top.
What would be the best sound transfer. A wooden body with aluminium top or an aluminium all over body. or any other suggestion.
If I use an aluminium on top, how thick?

Also where can I find Steel Guitar Designs?

Regards
JDB

[Jacobus De Bruyn]

Thanks Tim I like to think outside the box. Live become boring if you keep the usual.

[Jacobus De Bruyn]

Hi all, its a long time since I first posted my Electro Steel Guitar build.
Well I am still loving the guitar and play it as often as I have time to do so.
However I'm in the process to build my second Electro Steel and wonder if you older and younger steel players have suggestions of how I can better on the first, or just add something that will make it better.
As I used servo motors to control the strings on my first guitar, one of my upgrades will be to use stepper motors this time as the servo motors are somewhat noisy, not that hard but still (I did not cater enough space for sound-proving in my first build).
One if the suggestions I was asked to investigate was to use an Pitch Changer to do the string sound up or down instead of actually pulling the string to change pitch. After a couple of trial and error circuits that suggestion for now will not work as the sound are not perfect if you do the frequency electronically. Unless if somebody have a proper circuit to try out?
Other than that any suggestions could potentially ending up in my second Electro Steel Guitar.

[Jacobus De Bruyn]

Hi all since I haven't posted for some time, I thought it's time to break the silence with my new project.

But first some feedback on my first build. I am playing it as often as I can and it's still going well without any issues.

So, the new Electro Steel is something I promised before I fully commissioned the first. This build will have some similarities of the first, but the operation layout and function specs will differ. I already designed the body and doing testing "trial and error" method as I go along. Attach photos of the body progress.

The following are my wish-list of what the features of the guitar will be. I know some might sound a bit greasy or out of reach, but I guess somebody has to try it right.
Wish List.
1) Guitar will have a stainless body which is laser cut. (Done)
2) The guitar will not have tuning pegs at the nut side but instead it will be tuned at the bridge.
Strings will be adjusted with two methods.
a) Manually by finger.
b) Manually using a small handle to wind, it's faster.
c) Auto tuning where the guitar will tune itself in auto tune mode. This will be a completely new concept. I already done some tests and it does work. I still
however, have some issues with the controller that struggles to handle the amount of data. The adjustment will be done by servo motors. Each string will have
its own coil to measure and adjust and if all work out, all 12 strings will be adjusted simultaneously.
3) The Guitar will have a touchscreen which will house all controls.
4) This design will use stepper motors as the servo motors is to slow for this specific design.
5) With this design the strings will not be stretching to change the pitch. More later on.
6) The fret on the fret board on this build will be lit up in any color, selected in the parameter list.
7) The fret on the fret board will also be used as follow. When you play for example in "G" when you select "G" in the touch screen the corresponding frets will change to a different color. That will be useful when playing in the dark, or when in training or just because it looks nice.
8)Pedals A, B, C, D, and E will use hull sensors. My first build used potentiometers. The communication to the main panel will still be wireless as it is on the first build.
9) The guitar will be able to convert to C6 or most of the tunings with the setup I will be running directly from the touchscreen.
10) The guitar will have a wireless speaker heap set.
11) The speaker outlet will be wireless as well.
12) The head and tail will be rounded off with a dark wood finish where the touch screen will be fitted at the top of the head stock.

[Jim Kennedy]

Quite the concept guitar. I was a Navy electronics tech in the day, and had some training and exposure to synchros, servos, and steppers. I and and old Navy and Ford Aerospace tech discussed some of what you are doing now and believed steppers were the way to go. Much more precise in their operation and easier to make adjustments on the fly. We never got further than discussion. It is fun to watch the progress you are making. Technology is a wonderful thing. I am looking forward to hearing your next prototype.

[Jacobus De Bruyn]

Are you still playing with the electronic code -Steppers etc ?
I do struggle to find a code that will ramp up the speed enough to work. I'm new in coding and do struggle to get all going the way it should. The touch screen I will be using currently is my biggest hurdle to overcome.

[Carl Mayer]

Really nice work! I may have to give something like this a shot myself, being able to add changes and try different tunings is very appealing to me and I’ve probably got enough coding/electronics familiarity to make it work. I have a couple questions if you don’t mind sharing (I’m just a hobbyist but understand if you’re aiming to sell these and don’t want to give up details)

-What controller are you using and how did you decide on that? An Arduino or a maestro mini seem like they’d work, I just haven’t dug into the pros and cons for all the options there.

-why the big 20kg-cm servos? Most changes are ~5lb difference in string tension and it looks like you’ve got at least some mechanical advantage on your changer finger so at first glance it seems way oversized even after a healthy factor of safety. I ask because I expect downsizing the servos might help with the noise you mentioned without the pain/expense of stepper motors

-Why switch to Hall effect sensors for the pedals? Are there drawbacks to using simple pots?

-for push button switching between e9, c6, or any other copedent, how do you decide on string gauges? Since e9 is a reentrant tuning and c6 isn’t I imagine you’d get some real uneven/floppy string tension in some places when you switch

[Jacobus De Bruyn]

Hi Carl. I enjoy doing different and sometimes strange things. This is also only a hobby and wish I had more time to achieve the results I wish for. I am playing Steel only when I have time, that is why I'm not too good of a player.
Anyways, the first Electro Steel I build with servos as you know. I initially used smaller servos and replaced some, as it got too hot. I then change to a different make servo, which solves the overheating. As I already ordered the 20/25kg servos I decided to use them.
On the first Steel I used the standard ESP32 controller as it handles the functions well with no issues.

However with the current build, when I tested the Auto-Tuner with a standard ESP32, it could only handle one string at a time. So I ordered a ESP32-S. I will only test its capability when I completed the next stage of the build, the stepper motors.
Also the reason I use the ESP32-S is because the touch display uses an S as well. If it can handle the screen it will handle the tuning.

Potentiometers is old school, but the main reason is the potentiometer values are not that stable. I hope with the Hull effects it's a set and forget scenario.

On the tuning side, the initial setting was based of Alan's universal tuning chart as the E9 to C6 are only a half tone away for most strings. I had to make a slight modification to be able to get the full C6 on the board the way I know it. For C6 I don't use the top 2 strings, thus the reason I made this guitar a 12 string as to still have 10 strings for C6 tuning. The code will disable the top 2 strings by muting them in C6 config.

[Jacobus De Bruyn]

Hi Jim Kennedy. I am currently working on the Stepper motor side of the design and struggle to get the steppers to include the sleep function. If I don't include a function to switch off the steppers it does heat up and also waist power. 12 steppers will be changing the string tones, and 12 steppers will be auto adjusting the guitar as well as changing the setting (E9 to C6 to--)
Do you have a code that will get me the setup which include a sleep function or enable function. My current design is the steppers will follow the hull sensor (Foot Paddles and Knee Levers) value changes and when it go back to its resting position, it needs to enter sleep after a set time and when the Hull values moves out of a set value, stepper must wake-up and follow the value up to minimum or max.
It sounds like you have lots of experience on stepper controllers. Hope you can help.