Mic or Line Out?
Moderator: Shoshanah Marohn
-
- Posts: 54
- Joined: 6 Mar 2005 1:01 am
- Location: Madrid, Spain
Mic or Line Out?
Next Month I´ll have my first gig with the steel. I would like to know what is better for the sound: to use a mic or to use the line-out of the amp direct through the PA.
I think I´ve read a long time ago that a shure sm57 is enough... but I haven´t found that topic.
Thanks, and please excuse my english.
I think I´ve read a long time ago that a shure sm57 is enough... but I haven´t found that topic.
Thanks, and please excuse my english.
1989 Zumsteel D-10 8x5
Peavey Nashville 112
-
- Posts: 853
- Joined: 7 Jan 1999 1:01 am
- Location: Sault Ste Marie,Ontario,Canada
mic or line out
I use the XLR line out on my Nash 112 and it works fine and eliminates any feedback possibility.
- Jerry Hayes
- Posts: 7489
- Joined: 3 Mar 1999 1:01 am
- Location: Virginia Beach, Va.
Use of the line-out really depends on the amp ANd what you're plugging it into. Some sound fine and work as a direct box as Jerry mentions. On others, it takes a huge amount o EQ-fiddling to get a decent direct-inject tone, and with some very basic boards you just can't get anything other than a thin, nasally tone.
The only way to know is to try it and see how it sounds. remember that with a line-out you are giving up any tone shaping qualities of the speaker cabinet, speaker, and the power section of the amplifier. I always prefer micing the amp if possible - that way YOU ave control over at least the "raw materials" the soundman has to work with. Going direct, you are completely at the mercy of the soundman - plus you lose your amplified sound as a monitor.
I would suggest carrying your own active direct box (preferably one with an amp/speaker emulator), at least. That gives you at least minimal control over your sound if you have to go direct.
The only way to know is to try it and see how it sounds. remember that with a line-out you are giving up any tone shaping qualities of the speaker cabinet, speaker, and the power section of the amplifier. I always prefer micing the amp if possible - that way YOU ave control over at least the "raw materials" the soundman has to work with. Going direct, you are completely at the mercy of the soundman - plus you lose your amplified sound as a monitor.
I would suggest carrying your own active direct box (preferably one with an amp/speaker emulator), at least. That gives you at least minimal control over your sound if you have to go direct.
No chops, but great tone
1930's/40's Rickenbacher/Rickenbacker 6&8 string lap steels
1921 Weissenborn Style 2; Hilo&Schireson hollownecks
Appalachian, Regal & Dobro squarenecks
1959 Fender 400 9+2 B6;1960's Fender 800 3+3+2; 1948 Fender Dual-8 Professional
1930's/40's Rickenbacher/Rickenbacker 6&8 string lap steels
1921 Weissenborn Style 2; Hilo&Schireson hollownecks
Appalachian, Regal & Dobro squarenecks
1959 Fender 400 9+2 B6;1960's Fender 800 3+3+2; 1948 Fender Dual-8 Professional
- Brad Sarno
- Posts: 4916
- Joined: 18 Dec 2000 1:01 am
- Location: St. Louis, MO USA
- Contact:
Mic it! Steel direct thru tweeters can be a dangerous thing if you don't carefully EQ for that factor. If you mic a speaker, then you effectively remove those tweetery highs and maintain a true steel tone. What you hear coming from the amp is essentially what the house will be getting. It's hard to trust a soundman to know exactly how to EQ steel.
Brad Sarno
'82 Emmons S-10 push/pull, Revelation Tube Preamp, Furlong SPLIT powered speaker cab, V8 Octal Tube Preamp, Ganz Straight Ahead power amp - JBL D130
'82 Emmons S-10 push/pull, Revelation Tube Preamp, Furlong SPLIT powered speaker cab, V8 Octal Tube Preamp, Ganz Straight Ahead power amp - JBL D130
-
- Posts: 1239
- Joined: 29 Sep 2005 12:01 am
- Location: kokomo,Indiana, USA
- Jim Walker
- Posts: 1793
- Joined: 31 Dec 2000 1:01 am
- Location: Headland, AL
- Michael Haselman
- Posts: 1285
- Joined: 23 Aug 2002 12:01 am
- Location: St. Paul
- Contact:
- Mark Tomlinson
- Posts: 27
- Joined: 27 Sep 2006 12:01 am
- Location: Seattle, Washington, USA
- Contact:
- Micky Byrne
- Posts: 2295
- Joined: 15 Dec 2005 1:01 am
- Location: United Kingdom (deceased)
Mic for sure. I've played many concerts with P.A. companies using megga watt systems. The engineers always Mic up, and usually with a Shure SM-57....it was designed mainly for micing, though some vocalist seem to like it too for vocals, because of it's nice presence!! Even when I had a Nashville 112 I still Miced up, cause it's the only way to duplicate what's comming out of the speaker. I always carry one with me just in case a P.A. crew has a different mic to the 57.
Micky Byrne Carter and Sho-Bud universal, Nashville 400, Evans Fet 500 Lv United Kingdom www.mickybyrne.com
Micky Byrne Carter and Sho-Bud universal, Nashville 400, Evans Fet 500 Lv United Kingdom www.mickybyrne.com
- Dave Mudgett
- Moderator
- Posts: 9648
- Joined: 16 Jul 2004 12:01 am
- Location: Central Pennsylvania and Gallatin, Tennessee
In a situation with a good PA system and well-qualified sound people, I usually wind up micing. But if I don't have any ground loop problems, I sometimes use a Pod line out or the XLR out on the NV 112. But an SM-57 is generally safest, IMO.
But I don't always find this to be the case. Sometimes, shall we say, less dedicated sound people don't set the mics up correctly. By this I mean that either the physical mic mount isn't done solidly and the mic droops, they hang the mic off-axis because they don't feel like using a mic stand, they use a mic with problems, or some other such problem. I saw a well-known guitar player with a major Americana act recently in a real nice room, and his guitar amp mic was pointing at the floor until someone from the crowd finally got through to the sound folks. I don't think there's any 'magic' answer.
But I don't always find this to be the case. Sometimes, shall we say, less dedicated sound people don't set the mics up correctly. By this I mean that either the physical mic mount isn't done solidly and the mic droops, they hang the mic off-axis because they don't feel like using a mic stand, they use a mic with problems, or some other such problem. I saw a well-known guitar player with a major Americana act recently in a real nice room, and his guitar amp mic was pointing at the floor until someone from the crowd finally got through to the sound folks. I don't think there's any 'magic' answer.
- T. C. Furlong
- Posts: 1195
- Joined: 24 Oct 2002 12:01 am
- Location: Lake County, Illinois, USA
- Contact:
I am definitely in the "Mic It" camp. Although it takes a bit of experience in placing the mic so that it doesn't pick up a harsh node of the speaker. Usually a couple of inches from the grille and halfway between the center and outside of the speaker is a good start. I have been doing live sound for 35+ years and I have never heard of feedback being a problem when close micing an amp (mentioned in a previous post).
IMHO Going direct is almost always too bright unless you are using a speaker emulator or modeller. To the best of my knowledge, a direct out of an amplifier does not offer this. Some direct boxes have a high frequency cut that helps tame the highs.
TC
IMHO Going direct is almost always too bright unless you are using a speaker emulator or modeller. To the best of my knowledge, a direct out of an amplifier does not offer this. Some direct boxes have a high frequency cut that helps tame the highs.
TC
-
- Posts: 156
- Joined: 17 Jan 2002 1:01 am
- Location: Franklin, KY, USA (deceased)
Microphone set-up
I play gospel and often times I run into sound men that that doesn't know much about sound. I have been playing through
a Nashville 112. I have never used the "direct out" on the amp.
I just recently purchased myself a new SM57 and a mini mixer
so I can be in control. Now a question for some of you pros.
The mixer only has a 1/4 inch jack out. I was thinking of running
a short length of shielded cable to a direct box and a mic cable from the direct box to the sound man. I was told that I didn't need
a direct box, that I could run the shielded cable all the way to
the sound man. How about it???
a Nashville 112. I have never used the "direct out" on the amp.
I just recently purchased myself a new SM57 and a mini mixer
so I can be in control. Now a question for some of you pros.
The mixer only has a 1/4 inch jack out. I was thinking of running
a short length of shielded cable to a direct box and a mic cable from the direct box to the sound man. I was told that I didn't need
a direct box, that I could run the shielded cable all the way to
the sound man. How about it???
- Bo Borland
- Posts: 3947
- Joined: 20 Dec 1999 1:01 am
- Location: South Jersey -
- Contact:
I have always used a SM57 and think it sounds fine. I use an old metal gooseneck, tuck it under the amp handle and then aim the mic about halfway between the center and the edge.
The only problem I ever experience is on small stages when the bass amp is right next to my amp...it bleeds into my mic and screws with my tone. I just got a NV112 and will try the direct out next gig, if I don't like it... I will go right back to the 57.
The only problem I ever experience is on small stages when the bass amp is right next to my amp...it bleeds into my mic and screws with my tone. I just got a NV112 and will try the direct out next gig, if I don't like it... I will go right back to the 57.
Bo Borland
Rittenberry SD10 , Derby D-10, Quilter TT12, Peavey Session 400 w/ JBL, NV112, Fender Blues Jr. , 1974 Dobro 60N squareneck, Rickenbacher NS lapsteel, 1973 Telecaster Thinline, 1979 blonde/black Frankenstrat
Currently picking with
Mason Dixon Band masondixonband.net
Rittenberry SD10 , Derby D-10, Quilter TT12, Peavey Session 400 w/ JBL, NV112, Fender Blues Jr. , 1974 Dobro 60N squareneck, Rickenbacher NS lapsteel, 1973 Telecaster Thinline, 1979 blonde/black Frankenstrat
Currently picking with
Mason Dixon Band masondixonband.net
-
- Posts: 965
- Joined: 18 Feb 2005 1:01 am
- Location: Honolulu, Hawaii, USA
-
- Posts: 302
- Joined: 13 Sep 2003 12:01 am
- Location: Muskegon, Michigan, USA
- T. C. Furlong
- Posts: 1195
- Joined: 24 Oct 2002 12:01 am
- Location: Lake County, Illinois, USA
- Contact:
Francis, Your idea about using a small mixer is interesting but probably not necessary if you think about it. The sound man can screw up any signal that you send him if he's bad and he can most likely make something decent out of whatever signal you send him if he's good. My advice would be to have your sound on stage coming out of your amp be the best you can make it. And then put a microphone on your amp. If your tone starts out great, the sound man will probably leave it alone and let it shine through the PA.
Derrick, The sound man should use EQ to counteract any problems that the amp sound you have is creating in his mix. If you create a tone that is good for the mix from your seat, the chances are good that the sound man will leave the EQ flat unless there is something that the microphone is "hearing" that you are not.
Bo, The fact that the bass amp is bleeding into the steel amp microphone probably won't affect your steel tone in the sound system nearly as much as it will mess with the tone of the bass. What is probably happening is that the sound man is turning the lows down on the steel channel to keep the bass from being too loud and boomy. The result is a thinner sound for the steel. Try moving the steel mic very close to the speaker. If you have it 2" from the speaker, the steel should be about 30 dB louder than the bass if his amp is 5 feet from the microphone. If you have an open back cabinet, sometimes you can put the mic on the back side of the speaker and the cabinet can act as an isolater to keep some of the bass out. And the sound of the speaker should be almost the same on the back side as on the front.
TC
Derrick, The sound man should use EQ to counteract any problems that the amp sound you have is creating in his mix. If you create a tone that is good for the mix from your seat, the chances are good that the sound man will leave the EQ flat unless there is something that the microphone is "hearing" that you are not.
Bo, The fact that the bass amp is bleeding into the steel amp microphone probably won't affect your steel tone in the sound system nearly as much as it will mess with the tone of the bass. What is probably happening is that the sound man is turning the lows down on the steel channel to keep the bass from being too loud and boomy. The result is a thinner sound for the steel. Try moving the steel mic very close to the speaker. If you have it 2" from the speaker, the steel should be about 30 dB louder than the bass if his amp is 5 feet from the microphone. If you have an open back cabinet, sometimes you can put the mic on the back side of the speaker and the cabinet can act as an isolater to keep some of the bass out. And the sound of the speaker should be almost the same on the back side as on the front.
TC
-
- Posts: 156
- Joined: 17 Jan 2002 1:01 am
- Location: Franklin, KY, USA (deceased)
Thanks T.C. for your response. I appreciate it.
Maybe I didn't make myself clear regarding using the SM57
microphone and the mini mixer. What I have in mind is using
the 57 in front my amp speaker, run it through the mini
mixer and then from the mixer to the sound man. Like I
said in my previous post the mixer only has a 1/4" standard
jack for the "Out". I was thinking of using a short length of
of shielded cable between the mini mixer and a direct box
and then use a regular microphone cable from the direct
box to the sound man. I was told that I didn't need the
direct box, that I could just use the shielded cable all the
way from the mixer to the sound man. What do you think??
Maybe I didn't make myself clear regarding using the SM57
microphone and the mini mixer. What I have in mind is using
the 57 in front my amp speaker, run it through the mini
mixer and then from the mixer to the sound man. Like I
said in my previous post the mixer only has a 1/4" standard
jack for the "Out". I was thinking of using a short length of
of shielded cable between the mini mixer and a direct box
and then use a regular microphone cable from the direct
box to the sound man. I was told that I didn't need the
direct box, that I could just use the shielded cable all the
way from the mixer to the sound man. What do you think??
- T. C. Furlong
- Posts: 1195
- Joined: 24 Oct 2002 12:01 am
- Location: Lake County, Illinois, USA
- Contact:
Francis, I did understand what you were thinking with having the mic plugged into the mixer and sending the mixer's output to the soundman. What do you hope to do with the microphone's signal to make it easier for the sound man? I guess what I don't understand is what you plan to control from the mini-mixer. Volume? EQ?
Regarding sending an on-stage mixer output to the sound system mixer, I would think that a good quality passive direct box is the way to go. It will help eliminate a possible ground loop that may occur and it will balance the signal for the distance to the sound system mixer. You will need to be careful about keeping the level of the on-stage mixer's output low enough so that you don't send too much level to the direct box and saturate the transformer.
But back to the idea of having an on-stage mixer for the SM57 on your steel amp. I would think that the more you put in the signal chain, the more noise and problems you may have. Now, if you want to add a line level compressor or an "interesting" signal enhancement device like a Sonic Maximizer, and you don't want to or can't have it inserted in your amp's FX loop, I can understand wanting a place to insert that.
TC
Regarding sending an on-stage mixer output to the sound system mixer, I would think that a good quality passive direct box is the way to go. It will help eliminate a possible ground loop that may occur and it will balance the signal for the distance to the sound system mixer. You will need to be careful about keeping the level of the on-stage mixer's output low enough so that you don't send too much level to the direct box and saturate the transformer.
But back to the idea of having an on-stage mixer for the SM57 on your steel amp. I would think that the more you put in the signal chain, the more noise and problems you may have. Now, if you want to add a line level compressor or an "interesting" signal enhancement device like a Sonic Maximizer, and you don't want to or can't have it inserted in your amp's FX loop, I can understand wanting a place to insert that.
TC
- Hook Moore
- Posts: 4103
- Joined: 4 Aug 1998 11:00 pm
- Location: South Charleston,West Virginia
-
- Posts: 3879
- Joined: 4 Aug 1998 11:00 pm
- Location: Hendersonville Tn USA
-
- Posts: 8173
- Joined: 3 Jan 2002 1:01 am
- Location: Buffalo, N.Y.
- Contact:
Nothing wrong with the SM-57. Good mic, but over the past year most of the sound companies that I worked with have switched to the Sennheiser 609. Its a superior mic for micing guitar cabinets. I just bought one and started using it myself. I'd say about 20% better than the 57. It doesn't pickup extraneous noise. Very tight pattern. I'm still using a SM -57 for my guitar though.
-
- Posts: 156
- Joined: 17 Jan 2002 1:01 am
- Location: Franklin, KY, USA (deceased)
TC I appreciate your patience and your help. Here's my line of
thinking. I can e.q. my amp to the sound that I would prefer
and feed this into the SM57 and as far as the mixer I could
control my volume level that I send to the sound console.
As I said before some of these sound people know absolutely
nothing about a steel guitar and for that matter know very
little about the sound system.
By now you no doubt know that I know very little about
electronics. You said that a good passive direct box was the
way to go. I take it that you don't recommend using a single
conductor shielded cable from the mixer to the sound console,
right? You also mentioned not sending too much signal to the
direct box. Am I correct in thinking of having the sound man
put plenty of volume on my channel and then I could use a
small amount of gain on the mini mixer to obtain the volume
that I need? Thanks again for your help.
thinking. I can e.q. my amp to the sound that I would prefer
and feed this into the SM57 and as far as the mixer I could
control my volume level that I send to the sound console.
As I said before some of these sound people know absolutely
nothing about a steel guitar and for that matter know very
little about the sound system.
By now you no doubt know that I know very little about
electronics. You said that a good passive direct box was the
way to go. I take it that you don't recommend using a single
conductor shielded cable from the mixer to the sound console,
right? You also mentioned not sending too much signal to the
direct box. Am I correct in thinking of having the sound man
put plenty of volume on my channel and then I could use a
small amount of gain on the mini mixer to obtain the volume
that I need? Thanks again for your help.