Mic or Line Out?

Marcos Rivas · Post by **Marcos Rivas** » 23 Jan 2007 5:37 am

Next Month I´ll have my first gig with the steel. I would like to know what is better for the sound: to use a mic or to use the line-out of the amp direct through the PA.
I think I´ve read a long time ago that a shure sm57 is enough... but I haven´t found that topic.

Thanks, and please excuse my english.

Don Discher · Post by **Don Discher** » 23 Jan 2007 5:57 am

I use the XLR line out on my Nash 112 and it works fine and eliminates any feedback possibility.

Jerry Hayes · Post by **Jerry Hayes** » 23 Jan 2007 6:56 am

Marcos, when I use my Randall Steelman 500, I always use a Shure SM-57 mike for that and when I use my Nashville 112 I use the XLR output in the back, sort of a built in direct box.....JH in Va.

Jim Sliff · Post by **Jim Sliff** » 23 Jan 2007 7:12 am

Use of the line-out really depends on the amp ANd what you're plugging it into. Some sound fine and work as a direct box as Jerry mentions. On others, it takes a huge amount o EQ-fiddling to get a decent direct-inject tone, and with some very basic boards you just can't get anything other than a thin, nasally tone.

The only way to know is to try it and see how it sounds. remember that with a line-out you are giving up any tone shaping qualities of the speaker cabinet, speaker, and the power section of the amplifier. I always prefer micing the amp if possible - that way YOU ave control over at least the "raw materials" the soundman has to work with. Going direct, you are completely at the mercy of the soundman - plus you lose your amplified sound as a monitor.

I would suggest carrying your own active direct box (preferably one with an amp/speaker emulator), at least. That gives you at least minimal control over your sound if you have to go direct.

Brad Sarno · Post by **Brad Sarno** » 23 Jan 2007 7:28 am

Mic it! Steel direct thru tweeters can be a dangerous thing if you don't carefully EQ for that factor. If you mic a speaker, then you effectively remove those tweetery highs and maintain a true steel tone. What you hear coming from the amp is essentially what the house will be getting. It's hard to trust a soundman to know exactly how to EQ steel.

Roger Francis · Post by **Roger Francis** » 23 Jan 2007 7:31 am

Either one will sound good, but my preference is micing, and if you mic, the 57s or the Sennheiser 609s will do a great job, i pefer the 609s, i think they sound a little warmer or natural like the amp it's self (MPO)

Jim Walker · Post by **Jim Walker** » 23 Jan 2007 7:45 am

I'm with Roger, I have been using an SM57 for years to mic my amps and it has worked fine. I just bought a 609 and it works great! My amps all have line out but I don't like the tone going that route.

Good luck on your upcoming gig!

Michael Haselman · Post by **Michael Haselman** » 23 Jan 2007 10:15 am

Put me down for XLR out of NV112. FOH guys love it, and bandmates also. We use in-ears, and the clean direct out works great.

Mark Tomlinson · Post by **Mark Tomlinson** » 23 Jan 2007 10:23 am

If the amplifier is part of your sound (e.g. the cabinet, the speaker, etc.) then I would just put a microphone in front of the speaker. If you play clean, then a direct line might sound just fine. But be aware, that the sound guy at the board will have more control over your EQ in the PA mix.

Micky Byrne · Post by **Micky Byrne** » 25 Jan 2007 1:18 pm

Mic for sure. I've played many concerts with P.A. companies using megga watt systems. The engineers always Mic up, and usually with a Shure SM-57....it was designed mainly for micing, though some vocalist seem to like it too for vocals, because of it's nice presence!! Even when I had a Nashville 112 I still Miced up, cause it's the only way to duplicate what's comming out of the speaker. I always carry one with me just in case a P.A. crew has a different mic to the 57.

Micky Byrne Carter and Sho-Bud universal, Nashville 400, Evans Fet 500 Lv United Kingdom www.mickybyrne.com

Post by **Dave Mudgett** » 25 Jan 2007 2:49 pm

In a situation with a good PA system and well-qualified sound people, I usually wind up micing. But if I don't have any ground loop problems, I sometimes use a Pod line out or the XLR out on the NV 112. But an SM-57 is generally safest, IMO.

But I don't always find this to be the case. Sometimes, shall we say, less dedicated sound people don't set the mics up correctly. By this I mean that either the physical mic mount isn't done solidly and the mic droops, they hang the mic off-axis because they don't feel like using a mic stand, they use a mic with problems, or some other such problem. I saw a well-known guitar player with a major Americana act recently in a real nice room, and his guitar amp mic was pointing at the floor until someone from the crowd finally got through to the sound folks. I don't think there's any 'magic' answer.

T. C. Furlong · Post by **T. C. Furlong** » 27 Jan 2007 12:11 pm

I am definitely in the "Mic It" camp. Although it takes a bit of experience in placing the mic so that it doesn't pick up a harsh node of the speaker. Usually a couple of inches from the grille and halfway between the center and outside of the speaker is a good start. I have been doing live sound for 35+ years and I have never heard of feedback being a problem when close micing an amp (mentioned in a previous post).

IMHO Going direct is almost always too bright unless you are using a speaker emulator or modeller. To the best of my knowledge, a direct out of an amplifier does not offer this. Some direct boxes have a high frequency cut that helps tame the highs.

TC

Francis Chamberlain · Post by **Francis Chamberlain** » 27 Jan 2007 9:57 pm

I play gospel and often times I run into sound men that that doesn't know much about sound. I have been playing through
a Nashville 112. I have never used the "direct out" on the amp.
I just recently purchased myself a new SM57 and a mini mixer
so I can be in control. Now a question for some of you pros.
The mixer only has a 1/4 inch jack out. I was thinking of running
a short length of shielded cable to a direct box and a mic cable from the direct box to the sound man. I was told that I didn't need
a direct box, that I could run the shielded cable all the way to
the sound man. How about it???

Bo Borland · Post by **Bo Borland** » 28 Jan 2007 1:13 am

I have always used a SM57 and think it sounds fine. I use an old metal gooseneck, tuck it under the amp handle and then aim the mic about halfway between the center and the edge.
The only problem I ever experience is on small stages when the bass amp is right next to my amp...it bleeds into my mic and screws with my tone. I just got a NV112 and will try the direct out next gig, if I don't like it... I will go right back to the 57.

Derrick Mau · Post by **Derrick Mau** » 28 Jan 2007 2:26 am

I prefer miking an amp too, but what kind of EQ settings should the soundman be using to keep the natural tone of the amp?

Flat settings??

Leroy Golden · Post by **Leroy Golden** » 29 Jan 2007 6:24 am

Another vote for the sennhieser 609, sounds great thru the PA- we tried XLR out on the 112 but it sounded a bit too harsh, almost distorted...

T. C. Furlong · Post by **T. C. Furlong** » 29 Jan 2007 6:27 am

Francis, Your idea about using a small mixer is interesting but probably not necessary if you think about it. The sound man can screw up any signal that you send him if he's bad and he can most likely make something decent out of whatever signal you send him if he's good. My advice would be to have your sound on stage coming out of your amp be the best you can make it. And then put a microphone on your amp. If your tone starts out great, the sound man will probably leave it alone and let it shine through the PA.

Derrick, The sound man should use EQ to counteract any problems that the amp sound you have is creating in his mix. If you create a tone that is good for the mix from your seat, the chances are good that the sound man will leave the EQ flat unless there is something that the microphone is "hearing" that you are not.

Bo, The fact that the bass amp is bleeding into the steel amp microphone probably won't affect your steel tone in the sound system nearly as much as it will mess with the tone of the bass. What is probably happening is that the sound man is turning the lows down on the steel channel to keep the bass from being too loud and boomy. The result is a thinner sound for the steel. Try moving the steel mic very close to the speaker. If you have it 2" from the speaker, the steel should be about 30 dB louder than the bass if his amp is 5 feet from the microphone. If you have an open back cabinet, sometimes you can put the mic on the back side of the speaker and the cabinet can act as an isolater to keep some of the bass out. And the sound of the speaker should be almost the same on the back side as on the front.
TC

Francis Chamberlain · Post by **Francis Chamberlain** » 29 Jan 2007 10:09 am

Thanks T.C. for your response. I appreciate it.
Maybe I didn't make myself clear regarding using the SM57
microphone and the mini mixer. What I have in mind is using
the 57 in front my amp speaker, run it through the mini
mixer and then from the mixer to the sound man. Like I
said in my previous post the mixer only has a 1/4" standard
jack for the "Out". I was thinking of using a short length of
of shielded cable between the mini mixer and a direct box
and then use a regular microphone cable from the direct
box to the sound man. I was told that I didn't need the
direct box, that I could just use the shielded cable all the
way from the mixer to the sound man. What do you think??

T. C. Furlong · Post by **T. C. Furlong** » 29 Jan 2007 12:46 pm

Francis, I did understand what you were thinking with having the mic plugged into the mixer and sending the mixer's output to the soundman. What do you hope to do with the microphone's signal to make it easier for the sound man? I guess what I don't understand is what you plan to control from the mini-mixer. Volume? EQ?

Regarding sending an on-stage mixer output to the sound system mixer, I would think that a good quality passive direct box is the way to go. It will help eliminate a possible ground loop that may occur and it will balance the signal for the distance to the sound system mixer. You will need to be careful about keeping the level of the on-stage mixer's output low enough so that you don't send too much level to the direct box and saturate the transformer.

But back to the idea of having an on-stage mixer for the SM57 on your steel amp. I would think that the more you put in the signal chain, the more noise and problems you may have. Now, if you want to add a line level compressor or an "interesting" signal enhancement device like a Sonic Maximizer, and you don't want to or can't have it inserted in your amp's FX loop, I can understand wanting a place to insert that.

TC

Hook Moore · Post by **Hook Moore** » 29 Jan 2007 12:56 pm

I use an sm57 for all live shows. Its dependable , sounds good and I have never had a feedback issue. I don`t see any need or benefit for a small mixer prior to sending the signal to the soundman.
Hook

Steve Hinson · Post by **Steve Hinson** » 29 Jan 2007 1:31 pm

SM57...

Kevin Hatton · Post by **Kevin Hatton** » 29 Jan 2007 4:27 pm

Nothing wrong with the SM-57. Good mic, but over the past year most of the sound companies that I worked with have switched to the Sennheiser 609. Its a superior mic for micing guitar cabinets. I just bought one and started using it myself. I'd say about 20% better than the 57. It doesn't pickup extraneous noise. Very tight pattern. I'm still using a SM -57 for my guitar though.

Francis Chamberlain · Post by **Francis Chamberlain** » 29 Jan 2007 8:43 pm

TC I appreciate your patience and your help. Here's my line of
thinking. I can e.q. my amp to the sound that I would prefer
and feed this into the SM57 and as far as the mixer I could
control my volume level that I send to the sound console.
As I said before some of these sound people know absolutely
nothing about a steel guitar and for that matter know very
little about the sound system.
By now you no doubt know that I know very little about
electronics. You said that a good passive direct box was the
way to go. I take it that you don't recommend using a single
conductor shielded cable from the mixer to the sound console,
right? You also mentioned not sending too much signal to the
direct box. Am I correct in thinking of having the sound man
put plenty of volume on my channel and then I could use a
small amount of gain on the mini mixer to obtain the volume
that I need? Thanks again for your help.

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