pedal steel guitarists.. INSTANT virtuosity...

JW Day · Post by **JW Day** » 1 Aug 2005 6:26 pm

After attending the conv. last year,it's very easy to describe this type of talent.they have a lot of help from a supreme being. (GOD)

richard burton · Post by **richard burton** » 2 Aug 2005 12:27 am

Going slightly off topic, if you do a Google search for a gadget called 'Guitar Wizard', you can be a guitar virtuoso in a few minutes!!
It's true!
I've seen it on QVC in action!
R B

Gene H. Brown · Post by **Gene H. Brown** » 2 Aug 2005 12:40 am

You also have to remember that these young fellows are starting out musically learning the licks and musical theory at a place where many of the older musicians have left off, in other words they are learning things this day and age that weren't even invented when a lot of us guys were starting out and as you get older your learning abilities slow down a bit also and other things come along like family and fishing and food and......

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If You Keep Pickin That Thing, It'll Never Heal!

Robert Thomas · Post by **Robert Thomas** » 2 Aug 2005 2:18 am

This was a very interesting and informative topic. It's inspiring to read what others truly think.

David Mason · Post by **David Mason** » 2 Aug 2005 2:30 am

There's an almost classic cliche about young prodigies, totally immersed in their passion, who get dysfunctional, depressed, thrown for a loop or even go stark-raving bonkers when they encounter real-life crises or interactions that their years of scales hadn't prepared them for.

I'm not sure if there's statistical evidence to bear this out - it has the faint aroma of frustrated scriptwriters, still pissed off that they weren't born child prodigies - but at some point the ones who didn't wig out did stop fingering at least long enough to deal with unavoidable issues, least of which being their own raging teenage hormones. Hmm, maybe there's an upside to eunuchism?

David Doggett · Post by **David Doggett** » 2 Aug 2005 5:53 am

There does seem to be a burnout factor. Many prodigies don't stick with what they've got. Like anybody else, they get bored with it, and they eventually discover the rest of life outside the practice room. But the few who can stick with where there talent lies are the ones who get better with age. The late works of Mozart and Beethoven are considered their best. Today I think of Buddy Emmons, George Jones and B.B.King.

Bob Carlucci · Post by **Bob Carlucci** » 2 Aug 2005 8:08 am

Like many of us, I consider myself a "decent" musician, but had to work long and hard at it.. I just think it would be a very remarkable experience to pick up an instrument and be GREAT at it in a few months...

I'm not at all jealous of the people we're talking about. God has blessed them IMHO.
I would just like to know what the experience feels like, thats all

Ron S... My apologies if this post troubles you my friend. I just thought it might be an interesting discussion topic for our mutual friends here... I'll try to keep the "anal" topics to a minimum in the future . bob

Gene Jones · Post by **Gene Jones** » 2 Aug 2005 8:17 am

I appreciate and am in awe of the young folks who can learn to play pedal steel so quickly.

I had played non-pedal steel for about 10 years before I changed to pedal-steel, and I must admit that it was about two years before I could completely trust my ability on pedals enough to play a job without using non-pedal C6 as a crutch.

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<img width=100 src=http://genejones.bizland.com/Scan10351.jpg>
"FROM THEN 'til NOW"

Bob Carlucci · Post by **Bob Carlucci** » 2 Aug 2005 8:21 am

AH HA!!!... NOW I know how to do it!!!... I just got a nice email from Jelle.. Koos' brother[ who obviously loves him].. In the email, Jelle' told me Koos started his steel playing on a ukelele with a TEASPOON!!.. THATS the ticket!!

bob

Ray Minich · Post by **Ray Minich** » 2 Aug 2005 8:32 am

Sometimes it's the not knowing that someting is supposed to be hard that makes it so effortless. That's particularly true of younger folk who haven't been around to hear all about what they "can't" do from those "older and wiser"

Years back there was a Saturday morning cartoon where the dog was flying thru the air, flapping his paws, having a good old time, until a bird flew by and stated "dogs can't fly".

Jon Zimmerman · Post by **Jon Zimmerman** » 2 Aug 2005 9:09 am

THAT'S it! I want a Zirconia Teaspoon, #001 if possible!

David Mason · Post by **David Mason** » 3 Aug 2005 3:11 am

That teaspoon thing would get you a spot on the "Tonight Show" and a record contract easier than twenty years of study and practice on a pedal steel, that's for sure.

Dan Tyack · Post by **Dan Tyack** » 3 Aug 2005 8:48 am

David said

The late works of Mozart and Beethoven are considered their best

Of course, when Mozart was my age, he had been dead for 15 years....

To get back to the subject, Lord knows I'm no Mozart, but when I started playing pedal steel at age 17, I probably developed 90% of the chops I have now in the first 18 months I was playing. This was probably more due to obsession than to my inate musical ability. For the first 6 months I had the instrument I was practicing about 8 hours a day (I was also supposedly also in college). After 6 months I got a full time gig. This was a road gig where we would play for 2-3 weeks at a time in clubs in small towns around the Pacific Northwest, then go onto the next town. We'd play for 5-6 hours a night, and I would practice for 5-8 hours a day. If I hadn't had the opportunity to make a living which could support the obsession, I'm sure I wouldn't have learned as much as soon.

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www.tyack.com

Dick Wood · Post by **Dick Wood** » 3 Aug 2005 12:47 pm

I'm ordering a Black Ukelele because they have the best tone, don't they?

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Cops aren't paid much so I steel at night.[This message was edited by Dick Wood on 03 August 2005 at 01:48 PM.]

Bob Doran · Post by **Bob Doran** » 3 Aug 2005 9:57 pm

My solution to a total lack of talent was to surround myself with some awesome musicians.
Why they play with me, I have no idea, but I think it is the free cheese and beer.
I am totally left-brainded and get by because I have a good memory.
But I have had to work so hard to get where I am.
And they just pick up their instruments and play...
I would give just about anything to be able to write just one truly memorable song.
Looking back, I think I was just too compulsive, too afraid to make a mistake.
You have to trust your ear, and as so many here have said, really let your emotion show in the music.
Emotion is everything.
Bob

Klaus Caprani · Post by **Klaus Caprani** » 4 Aug 2005 1:23 am

Emotion is everything

Thanks Bob. It's much better now

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Klaus Caprani

MCI RangeXpander S-10 3x4
www.klauscaprani.com

Charlie McDonald · Post by **Charlie McDonald** » 4 Aug 2005 1:57 am

Bob Doran, you said a mouthful.

It's funny about that left-brain thing....
I always thought if I was more right-brained I would have been a more accomplished musician, but my left brain tells me it ain't so.

I keep trying to write a decent melody, but in the meantime I can arrange, do harmony, other stuff. Guess we have to be grateful.
And surround ourselves with good players.

Post by **Dave Mudgett** » 4 Aug 2005 7:40 am

Bob D., you're right - emotion is everything in music. I'm very "split-brained": very "left-brained" in some ways - my profession is scientist/mathematician/engineer - but when I'm playing for real, I don't think analytically at all, it's all about how it feels.

To me, the "left-brain" mentality is very useful for preparation. But if I think about things much while playing a gig, it always sounds contrived to me. Anyway, it's the feeling while playing with good players that is fun.

I believe that any general statement about how easy/hard it is to learn at any age depends on the person. Myself, I can focus better and more intensely, and have learned faster as an adult than I ever did as a child. Certain things - complex pattern recognition and memorization - may be physically easier when one is younger, but there is much more to music than that. Depth of understanding is much better with more experience, IMO. Strong analytical thinking ability, something most youngsters don't have, can make many things, including music, much easier to learn. I say this because SO many people believe that if one doesn't start early, very serious proficiency can't be achieved. I strenuously disagree, and have seen many counterexamples.

I do agree that most adults, in our society, have so much going on that it's hard to focus on anything intensely. However, there are exceptions - sometimes we have more options than we realize. It's all a matter of what one is willing to sacrifice.

Ironically, most kids in our schools these days also have way too many things going on to ever get intense about anything. It seems these days that heavy multi-tasking time-management is the main issue. I think this is sad - I teach college students, and way too many simply can't park themselves at a desk or an instrument long enough to really achieve real understanding or profiency. It's all about 'overall goal/grade maximization'. While that's a useful skill, one should be able to step outside that mindset and really 'hunker down' on one thing. My opinion, of course.

Charlie McDonald · Post by **Charlie McDonald** » 4 Aug 2005 10:02 am

I agree with your opinion, Dave M.
I know of plenty of kids that started out too early on piano, for example.
Some depth of experience beforehand is good (altho a natural will start out early, naturally).
But on stage, it's feeling, and any analysis should come before that, not during.

Good anaysis.

Jud Thomas · Post by **Jud Thomas** » 4 Aug 2005 11:08 am

This topic is interesting to me because I teach 5th grade math and science. I've studied child development and education for gifted and talented students a bit and I can say that the average person needs to see or do something 6 times to learn it. The person who is gifted in a particular area can master something after being exposed to it 1 or 2 times.
That being said, I know I am not gifted at pedal steel. Howard Gardner, a well known developmental researcher, suggests that humans have eight intelligences: verbal-linguistic, logical-mathematical, visual-spatial, bodily-kinesthetic, musical-rhythmic, interpersonal, intrapersonal, and naturalistic.
I believe that children can show early signs of being gifted in any of these areas. Clearly someone that can master the pedal steel in such a short time is very gifted musically and, in my opinion, kinesthetically considering the bodily coordination it takes to play the instrument. Food for thought...
Jud

Bill McCloskey · Post by **Bill McCloskey** » 4 Aug 2005 1:02 pm

As an adjunct to this discussion, I've learned the hard way about the absolute lack of support that gifted children can get from their educational institutions.

My son played cello in the orchestra, but once he "found" the mandolin and got serious about playing, (and decided to quit cello) he became person non grata with the musical education system at our public school. Here is a kid who can play Miles Davis, Charlie Mingus, and Thelonium Monk on the Mandolin, but can't get into the Jazz band because, as they said, "if it's not written in the charts, we aren't going to change it."

I talked to the head of the department and talked about my son's love of David Grisman, but the music department head had never heard of Grisman so it fell on deaf ears.

His orchestra teacher took time out to praise the kids who practiced during lunch hour - and so when my son's name wasn't mentioned he was put out: he practices at every free moment at school. The teacher told him: "You play mandolin. That doesn't count."

So now I have a kid who can play rings around most adults, has a sophisticated understanding of music theory, lives and breaths music but can get no support at school.

Charlie McDonald · Post by **Charlie McDonald** » 4 Aug 2005 1:17 pm

Bummer, Bill. Not good.
But he won't be in school forever.

Bob Hoffnar · Post by **Bob Hoffnar** » 4 Aug 2005 2:22 pm

Bill,
Send your kid to NYC. Plenty of room for super talented creative musicians here. I hope you have the wisdom to tell him that those music teachers at his school are just pathetic losers that will be lining up to kiss his ass when he hits the real music scene !

Bob

Post by **Dave Mudgett** » 4 Aug 2005 5:12 pm

... but the music department head had never heard of Grisman so it fell on deaf ears.

Pretty lame, but I'm not overly surprised. Not all music teachers are like this - hope you can find some better ones.[This message was edited by Dave Mudgett on 04 August 2005 at 10:57 PM.]

Dave Grafe · Post by **Dave Grafe** » 7 Aug 2005 1:49 pm

A few points to ponder for Bill M. and his boy (and others with similar situations) from a formerly unsupported student:

1) NO surprise that the music department head never heard of Mr. Grisman: Those that can, DO. Those that can't, TEACH.
It sounds like a bad joke, but it's been too true for too long to be funny.

2) Bob Wills and the Texas Playboys never could get into the musicians' union because the union said "playing saxophones with violins isn't music."

3) Like many of the greatest jazz musicians, Charles Mingus was completely unsupported at school, too. The cool thing about it is that the experience motivated him to spend a lot of his adult life working with young and "unsupported" musicians, more than anything else helping them to believe in themselves and their choices.

4) Check out these guys: http://www.sneakinout.com/
They play Beethoven through Gershwin to Led Zeppelin and back again, all on the mandolin and all with great musicianship and a huge sense of humor.

On a different tack, for Dave M. and Charlie - Joseph Zawinul, the keyboard player and founder of the legendary modern jazz group Weather Report didn't even start playing seriously until he was in his twenties - he often said that he appreciated how having a real life informed him and gave him something real to say musically. [This message was edited by Dave Grafe on 07 August 2005 at 02:55 PM.]