pedal steel guitarists.. INSTANT virtuosity...

Bob Carlucci · Post by **Bob Carlucci** » 1 Aug 2005 3:18 am

I was reading Henry's post about Koos Biele.. Heard the great tone,feel and technique after only 5 months of playing,, and then he's playing at the ISGC after only 1/2 years??? . Give me a break!

..

Recently I've been reading a lot on these pages about Jonathan Candler.. The young man that is also best described as a prodigy or even a phenomenon..

I must say, I feel somewhat uneasy, when someone can master something as difficult as the pedal steel in just a few short months... I mean the recording of Koos after 5 months is as good or better than many of us after 25 years... I guess the reason I would like to discuss this topic is because I just don't understand how it can take place.

After close to 30 years , I feel my own playing level is just north of mediocre...perhaps in the "low average" range, and I had to work my butt off to even get to THAT level!

I know this happens on other instruments also... Is it Latent natural talent?.. Photographic memory?.. Incredible ears?... Gift from God? [my theory!]..

How can someone be so good with no real background?

I would really like your comments and insights on this... bob [This message was edited by Bob Carlucci on 01 August 2005 at 04:53 AM.]

Bill McCloskey · Post by **Bill McCloskey** » 1 Aug 2005 3:41 am

Well, I've witnessed this sort of thing first hand. Last year my son was a middling cello player. Last June he picked up a mandolin and within a month as able to improvise quite well at our local jam. His progress was nothing short of amazing. He was literally able to memorize and play very complicated songs after only hearing them once or twice. Last month he played on stage with David Grisman at the mandolin symposium. A few days ago we played our first gig together and the highlight was him playing a duet with his uncle (the principle bass with the new york city ballet) where they did an arrangement of Charlie Mingus's Fables of Faubus, a very complicated piece. My son memorized the whole piece in a day. His uncle, who wrote the arrangement needed to have the music in front of him. He now plays Bluegrass, Irish, Swing, Bebob and blues.

Needless to say I've been both thrilled and humbled especially after having played guitar for 30 years to be yelled at by my son when I can't keep up.

I should mention he also wrote his first String Quintet when he was in 5th grade.

Charlie McDonald · Post by **Charlie McDonald** » 1 Aug 2005 3:42 am

It's not fair, is it Bob?
I used to insist that we all have the same innate capabilities, by virtue of being hard-wired to a brain, but the older I go, the less I know, so who can explain.

If I knew, I'd write about it and sell a million books. But then there'd be no time to play. Life is such an individual journey.... I can admire a prodigy, but I just wasn't there at that age. Too many other things to do, not enough focus?
Maybe somebody else knows....

David Mason · Post by **David Mason** » 1 Aug 2005 4:08 am

Same number of fingers, same number of brain cells, same number of ears, it doesn't seem fair.... I have a couple of friends who were semi-child prodigies, playing absolutely world-class professional rock guitar in their teens. One is now a professor at Berklee, the other owns a recording studio in Minneapolis.

That talent mostly seems to have to do with a lack of self-imposed limitations - what we tell ourselves is "hard" and therefore frightening and inaccessible, and also listening with great, great concentration. It's certainly not magic, the more you tell yourself it is the more you're closing yourself off from your best playing.

Every really great musician I've heard of or known went through a period of playing 12, 14, even 16 hours a day. It seems as though a year of really working on your playing for 16 hours a day is way better for you than two years of playing only 8 hours a day. STEP AWAY FROM THE COMPUTER> PUT DOWN THE MOUSE< THE GUITAR IS OVER THERE< BOB.

John Daugherty · Post by **John Daugherty** » 1 Aug 2005 4:53 am

Bob, I have always thought that musical ability is a God given talent. Just as some people are blessed with a natural singing voice and others have to work and train their voice. We all can be better than we are, if we are willing to pay the price of hard work and long hours of practice. It comes easier to some than others.

jim milewski · Post by **jim milewski** » 1 Aug 2005 4:56 am

What Reece said, "practice doesn't make perfect, perfect practice makes perfect", I'm still trying to unlearn bad technique that I picked up along the way.

Gere Mullican · Post by **Gere Mullican** » 1 Aug 2005 5:16 am

I agree with those that don't understand how some can get so proficient in such a short time. I started playing when I was 12 and I am now 73, still play regular every week and still can't understand why some can be so good. I finally figured it out: that thing called natural talent. I asked John Hughey one time, why, since we are about the same age and I have probably been playing longer than him, he plays so good and I don't. Maybe there are some that have been trying as long as I have, but I don't know of them, and certainly there is no one on this planet that loves the pedal steel guitar as much as I do. Maybe almost, but not as much. I live, eat and breathe it. So I guess it boils down to that one factor, natural born talent. You good pickers keep picking and I will keep listening and trying.
Gere

------------------
GFI SD10, Peavey NV 112, Hilton Pedal & Boss DD-3 & MXR Dynacomp compressor and Boss Tone

Webb Kline · Post by **Webb Kline** » 1 Aug 2005 5:43 am

Life ain't fair. I used to let it bother me, but I finally stopped caring about making it a competition and started simply enjoying playing. When I did, it began to transform mny playing. I'll never be a prodigy, that's for sure. But, I don't let let it frustrate me.

I heard a dobro player recently who couldn't have been more than about 21 and I know that I will never hear anyone that good again. After playing the instrument for 27 years and thinking I am pretty good, this kid comes around and I can't even comprehend what he was doing.

My oldest son is that way. Bought him a drum set when he was 13. WHen he was 14 I took him to a jazz jam and the guys were so blown away that they started throwing stuff in 9 and 13 at him trying to stump him and he could play it just as fluently as anything in 4/4. He's always said, "I don't count it, I feel it."

Kid's do have a disticnt advantage these days with all the learning material available on the internet. But some will always get it better than the rest of us.

Ray Minich · Post by **Ray Minich** » 1 Aug 2005 6:47 am

Everybody has some thing that they can excel at. I always envied the math students that picked up differential equations just by readin' a page. I had to work my butt off to figure it out.

Jeff Lampert · Post by **Jeff Lampert** » 1 Aug 2005 6:55 am

One of the HUGE drawbacks in measuring one's playing against the greatest is that you end up thinking that what they do is what should be done, and you ignore your own natural abilities.

IMO, we steel players are worse at this than most any other type of player. You would never find all guitar-players or pianists trying to pattern themselves after a few great players and styles of playing. There are literally hundreds of players and styles absorbed into those instruments.

Koos found in himself the ability be able to play like Buddy Emmons and he is a fabulous player doing just that. But if you don't have the disposition or type of talents to be Buddy Emmons (or whoever else you choose to emulate), you can look for what you naturally can do. There are many players who are tremendous who don't come close to being BE but did something unique and fresh (Chalker for instance). Look for that in yourself.

Look at what your natural talents are. Maybe you have a talent for composition, or orchestration, playing rock 'n roll or blues or classical music, or complex harmony (that's me!). Draw inspiration from other types of players (horns, woodwind, violin, etc.) in order to open your mind and talents to something other than conventional steel-stylings and it will help you discover and refine your unique talents. One of advantages to playing steel is that it hasn't all been done before, and you can be the player that is different and therefore special.

Do the thing that YOU'RE naturally good at and cultivate that. Then you will stand out. Ok, off the soapbox now. But think about it!

------------------
Jeff's Jazz
[This message was edited by Jeff Lampert on 01 August 2005 at 08:14 AM.]

Daryl Stogner · Post by **Daryl Stogner** » 1 Aug 2005 7:09 am

Recently I've been reading a lot on these pages about Jonathan Candler.. The young man that is also best described as a prodigy or even a phenomenon..

Bob,

I met Randy and Jonathan last year. The first time I saw Jonathan he was playing drums in their church band. He's good at that too. After their practice, he went to the keyboards. Randy invited me to their house and we sat in the living room and played a bit. I was so enthused by his talent, I was having trouble paying attention to what I was playing!

The kid can play, and he can improvise as well. What he doesn't know, he plays what he wants to play. No shyness about him, it's obvious Jonathan feels what he is playing.

He sat at my Carter with stereo amp and all of the goodies and had a blast at my church band practice. He's amazing now, but in 5 or 10 years, he will be in major demand.

He's just talented, a good kid, his music playing just made me feel good and smile! By the way, Randy ain't too bad a picker either. These are good folks!

Daryl

[This message was edited by Daryl Stogner on 01 August 2005 at 08:10 AM.]

Donny Hinson · Post by **Donny Hinson** » 1 Aug 2005 7:24 am

Sure, there are prodigies, people who seem to excel with very little effort. But music is an artform, not a competition. There's more to music than playing blistering scales and knowing every chord in the book and where it can be used. You see, music isn't black and white, like math or chemistry or physics. Music is soul, music is emotion, music is expressing your true feelings and imagination. That's the key to capturing the art in it! The kids, they're just copying what they've heard. There's nothing wrong with that, we all did it, but copying songs and revealing true emotion are vastly different things.

Sure, I've heard lots of guys who could play more chords than Chalker, but they didn't have his style. I've heard young guys that played all Hughey's stuff, but they didn't have his touch, his emotion. I've heard plenty of guys copy Emmons' sound, but something was still lacking. It's the same thing that's lacking when they copy Lloyd's stuff. It's the finesse, it's the touch, it's the emotion in their music. Sure, some kids can play technical circles around most of us, but do thay have emotion and feeling, do they show real soul in their music?

Teenagers can be real speed demons, they're great technicians too, but they haven't lived enough, they haven't suffered and experienced enough of life and the complexities of emotion to be able to put them to into their music. The loss of a love, the loss of those dearest to them, the realization that their life is half over, these are the things that make great really writers, musicians, singers, and artists. Going through the suffering life gives changes us, makes us more introspective, especially when we come to realize that life and all the things dearest to us won't last forever.

Yes, there will always be prodigies who technically amaze us. But in the end, it's those old masters who can really touch our hearts.[This message was edited by Donny Hinson on 01 August 2005 at 08:26 AM.]

Larry Bell · Post by **Larry Bell** » 1 Aug 2005 8:10 am

Koos is not from this planet.

------------------
Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
2003 Fessenden S/D-12 8x8, 1969 Emmons S/D-12 6x6, 1984 Sho-Bud S/D-12 7x6, 1971 Dobro, Standel and Peavey Amps

Bob Hoffnar · Post by **Bob Hoffnar** » 1 Aug 2005 8:27 am

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Yes, there will always be prodigies who technically amaze us. But in the end, it's those old masters who can really touch our hearts.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The thing is that the old masters started out as young prodigies !

Bob

Ron Sodos · Post by **Ron Sodos** » 1 Aug 2005 8:50 am

Bob,
In have to say, and no insult intended, you spend more time analysing and articulating your intellectual approach to music than playing. Most of your posts are so anal that it seems to me you talk more steel guitar than play.
..................

Nic du Toit · Post by **Nic du Toit** » 1 Aug 2005 10:17 am

Jeff L.,
Well said. Enough said.

------------------
<img align=left src="http://home.telkomsa.net/peterden/al%20saut/images/nightmarefront85.jpg" border="0">Nic du Toit
1970 Rosewood P/P Emmons D10 Fatback 8x4
1980 Basket Weave P/P Emmons SD10 3x5
Peavey Session 500 unmodfied
My CD "Nightmare on Emmons Steel"
<A class=db href="mailto:alsaut@absamail.co.za?subject=Forum Reply">Click here to E-mail us.</A>

Post by **Dave Mudgett** » 1 Aug 2005 11:47 am

I don't let these kind of people bother me. We all make choices in life, and not everyone can take months and years off and just completely immerse in music, which I think is what's required for this kind of rapid development. I'll bet a lot of people could develop rapidly if they were able to focus intensely - say, like 16 hours a day for months on end.

To me, it's the end product that matters, not how long it takes to get there. Sure, a lot of 'old masters' started out as 'young prodigies', but not all, IMO. I could cite examples, but then someone would cite counter-examples that were young prodigies, and so on. It's beside the point. For someone with musical talent, the question is "How burning is the desire to develop, and how can I practically do it?"

What Jeff L. said also. The music that means the most to me, and probably most others, is that which connects emotionally, and says something unique.

As far as [edited for clarity: Bob's original] post being 'anal', I don't see it. These are important things for many musicians to think about. For some, the slogan "Just Do It" is fine. For others, sizing up the problem and thinking a bit along the way work better.[This message was edited by Dave Mudgett on 01 August 2005 at 02:24 PM.]

Roger Rettig · Post by **Roger Rettig** » 1 Aug 2005 12:57 pm

(Edited to remove a totally misinformed response from me!!!) - I went on to say.....

There will always be those outstanding talents who outstrip everyone with their almost unnatural rate of progress. It's been my pleasure to know guitarist Albert Lee since around 1962 - he's another who took to the instrument with incredible speed, leaving us, his contemporaries, to gape in astonishment! Despite that, I continue to get unlimited joy from the process of making music, always knowing that my efforts, however diligently I apply myself, will fall way short of such giants as these chosen few.

RR[This message was edited by Roger Rettig on 01 August 2005 at 02:41 PM.]

Charlie McDonald · Post by **Charlie McDonald** » 1 Aug 2005 1:02 pm

Most of your posts are so anal

Oh, BS. Some guy starts a provocative topic, and some other guy shoots it down.
It's boring.
If it were true, there wouldn't be any replies.

I enjoy self-anal-ysis myself.
As a friend said, 'If weren't anally retentive, we'd be in trouble.'

And now, back to prodigies.

Every really great musician I've heard of or known went through a period of playing 12, 14, even 16 hours a day.

So that's why I'm not a great musician!

Post by **Dave Mudgett** » 1 Aug 2005 1:33 pm

Roger R. - Ron S. was speaking to "Bob's" post. I assumed he was referring to Bob C.'s original post, although it came right after Bob H.'s post. In any case, I've edited my post to make what I was talking about more clear. I made a 'dangling reference', sorry about that. In fact, it looks like Ron and I both made dangling references.

Roger Rettig · Post by **Roger Rettig** » 1 Aug 2005 1:39 pm

Oh, my goodness! SORRY - I'm car-lagged from a long drive down I-75 and I wasn't paying attention.

Now I'm going back to erase my earlier post - sorry, Ron, and thanks, Dave, for the correction!

RR

Bruce Clarke · Post by **Bruce Clarke** » 1 Aug 2005 1:42 pm

Quote.Every really great musician I've heard of or known went through a period of playing 12, 14, even 16 hours a day.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Arthur Rubinstein, one of the great pianists of the 20th century, didn't. He had a faultless musical memory, and the ability to reproduce by ear almost everything he had ever heard. He disliked practising, did as little as possible, but played brilliantly, clearly another of those incredibly gifted individuals.

John Steele · Post by **John Steele** » 1 Aug 2005 2:21 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>
The thing is that the old masters started out as young prodigies !

Bob
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Very true, Bob. But you must remember, nobody noticed or listened to them then, because they were young - and therefore, they must know nothing.

-John

------------------
www.ottawajazz.com

Dave Grafe · Post by **Dave Grafe** » 1 Aug 2005 3:17 pm

Sometimes it's the not knowing that someting is supposed to be hard that makes it so effortless. That's particularly true of younger folk who haven't been around to hear all about what they "can't" do from those "older and wiser" - once we believe that something is difficult it will be for sure, even if it was easy when we were younger.

Our wonderful brains can get in the way something powerful.

David Doggett · Post by **David Doggett** » 1 Aug 2005 4:42 pm

You learn things much faster when you are young, and you can immerse yourself with greater concentration and fewer distractions. Some of the old masters who started out as young prodigies were much listened to even when they were young. Mozart toured Europe as a child. There is currently a whole crop of amazing young Asian and Asian-American classical musicians - their families encourage them with loving discipline and long hours of practice. If I'm not mistaken, Buddy Emmons was pretty young when he first made his reputation playing for top country singers. Paul Franklin, Jr. was also pretty well known and respected as a very young player. Not all young prodigies are ignored.