Robby Can You Play The Car Crash? Bobbie Seymour Can. SONNY.
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Ever been out of tune on a recording???
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Sonny Priddy
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Barry Blackwood
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Well Barry, I know it's a well discussed subject to be sure.
I can say that I've read every thread, EVERY "Buddy Emmons" comment, by the way, and I have never taken anything he said out of context. I envy his communication abilities as much as his playing abilities.
I play EVERY weekend, in the bands that I want to play in, and before music went to strict weekends here in Portland, I played more weeks a month besides than not. I always get paid too.
I only took the time to answer and participate in this "Tremendous Tunin' Question" because I felt all these complex and useless "tuning systems" and "midieval beatless theories" would confuse new players un-necessarily.
People may tune as they wish, they can read what they wish, and they tire, I suppose, at their own rates.
I have only taken what time I wish to defend the most simple, concise, and easily explainable way to tune a pedal steel guitar that I know of. It's probably the easiest thing I've ever done, though it, to be sure has taken more of my time than I allow most "non playing" things to take.
No matter how much time goes by, or more complex theories, equations, or tuning charts come to light, I will still tune the way I tune, that is pleasing to MY ear, play as often as I wish, to the best of my ability, and when it's right for me on the bandstand...
I fly.
I would expect others to do so too, if they want to.
EJL
<font size="1" color="#8e236b"><p align="center">[This message was edited by Eric West on 27 June 2005 at 07:53 PM.]</p></FONT>
I can say that I've read every thread, EVERY "Buddy Emmons" comment, by the way, and I have never taken anything he said out of context. I envy his communication abilities as much as his playing abilities.
I play EVERY weekend, in the bands that I want to play in, and before music went to strict weekends here in Portland, I played more weeks a month besides than not. I always get paid too.
I only took the time to answer and participate in this "Tremendous Tunin' Question" because I felt all these complex and useless "tuning systems" and "midieval beatless theories" would confuse new players un-necessarily.
People may tune as they wish, they can read what they wish, and they tire, I suppose, at their own rates.
I have only taken what time I wish to defend the most simple, concise, and easily explainable way to tune a pedal steel guitar that I know of. It's probably the easiest thing I've ever done, though it, to be sure has taken more of my time than I allow most "non playing" things to take.
No matter how much time goes by, or more complex theories, equations, or tuning charts come to light, I will still tune the way I tune, that is pleasing to MY ear, play as often as I wish, to the best of my ability, and when it's right for me on the bandstand...
I fly.
I would expect others to do so too, if they want to.
EJL
<font size="1" color="#8e236b"><p align="center">[This message was edited by Eric West on 27 June 2005 at 07:53 PM.]</p></FONT>
Also, to throw the proverbial whatever you call it in the tent...
These "Ear Training" things:
As, or if a person becomes adept at "following what they hear", are they then not unlike the "fiddle player" we all have come to despise for following "the horribly flat vocalist"?
I might opine that "it" is something you develop internally, independent of "what you think you hear" at any given moment.
I was watching a local drummer here at a show at Duffs last thursday before my weekend gig.
Kenny Sawyer.
I was finally able to put what I consider his magical drummers' gift into words: He is able to ignore everything, and hear everything at the same time.
Thereby, he has been in my mind the most steady and tastefully dynamic drummer that I have ever had the pleasure to work with locally a few times over the years. I've heard few that matched him in any venue or locale.
It's no small task, to be sure. Watching and listening to him never ceases to amaze and please me.
Besides being a very gentle and kind friend. He's solid as a rock.
I can't help thinking that playing against instruments and vocalists that are sometimes wandering around tonally without haplessly following them into flattness or sharpdom is quite a job, and is possibly the antithesis of "Ear Training".
It comes from inside mainly, and doesn't happen overnight in my humble opinon and hard fought experience.
Simplicity isn't Ease by any means.
Night.
EJL
(Just a thought before I head off to Chickamauga in the second of three books that Mr Gambrell so kindly sent me.)
These "Ear Training" things:
As, or if a person becomes adept at "following what they hear", are they then not unlike the "fiddle player" we all have come to despise for following "the horribly flat vocalist"?
I might opine that "it" is something you develop internally, independent of "what you think you hear" at any given moment.
I was watching a local drummer here at a show at Duffs last thursday before my weekend gig.
Kenny Sawyer.
I was finally able to put what I consider his magical drummers' gift into words: He is able to ignore everything, and hear everything at the same time.
Thereby, he has been in my mind the most steady and tastefully dynamic drummer that I have ever had the pleasure to work with locally a few times over the years. I've heard few that matched him in any venue or locale.
It's no small task, to be sure. Watching and listening to him never ceases to amaze and please me.
Besides being a very gentle and kind friend. He's solid as a rock.
I can't help thinking that playing against instruments and vocalists that are sometimes wandering around tonally without haplessly following them into flattness or sharpdom is quite a job, and is possibly the antithesis of "Ear Training".
It comes from inside mainly, and doesn't happen overnight in my humble opinon and hard fought experience.
Simplicity isn't Ease by any means.
Night.
EJL
(Just a thought before I head off to Chickamauga in the second of three books that Mr Gambrell so kindly sent me.)
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Charlie McDonald
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"Maybe somebody who really knows will jump in."--David Doggett, http://steelguitarforum.com/Forum5/HTML/007821-2.html
Happy to.
I finally got around to reading the entire thread, including the links to back pages.
The above link covers pretty much all the history, beginning with cogent responses by Chas Smith, David Doggett, and Jeff Smith, on page 3, who knows quite a lot about it.
But my statements here will eventually get back to the topic, which is tuning the pedal steel, and the problems I have been able to glean from posts. Bear with me.
Trying to figure out what is generally meant by steelers re sharp or flat thirds, I have these facts about the equal temperament. All thirds are sharp from just, fourths are similarly 'wide', and 5ths are 'narrow'.
Take the third; as b0b says, the ratio is 5/4. This means that the 5th harmonic of F coincides with the 4th harmonic of A. (A tuner will then flat the F by about 7 beats per second.)
Why? If I were to tune the intervals F-A, A-C#, and C#-F 'beatless', or justly tuned, I would not end up with an octave; the hi F would be flat from the lo F.
And we know how the circle of 5ths, all tuned beatless, doesn't come out with the same starting pitch. To do that, you must narrow the fifths and widen the fourths (from beatless).
Tuning wars are not solely the purvue of steel players; among piano tuners, there are 'A' tuners and 'C' tuners. A tuners start with an A and tune the F to an ideal third beat rate; C tuners tune the F for an ideal 5th beat rate. They do not agree.
I used two forks (now two notes from a Kord tuner), C, for me, and A, for guitar and violin players, since I tuned lots of studios, symphonies, and bands.
Being a piano player, I like a strong 5th, a slower beating than a true ET. Right away there is a compromise involved. That is, my progression of thirds is not perfect, but my fifths work very well in ensembles. As I tune up the scale, I check my 13ths (an octave + a fifth) and tune them beatless, which maintains strong fifths, and the stretch is implied.
Electric pianos: there are 12 pots, so the entire piano is governed by that.
An electronic, 'sampled' piano, is sampled (from a concert class grand) at each octave; thus you get the 'stretch.'
I think you can draw your own conclusions.
The pedal steel's temperament is over its 10- or 12-string compass. Thus, to accommodate the natural sounding stretch, how you play is involved. You set your thirds to accommodate that, you place your bar, say an octave up, to accommodate that, with your ear.
And so, it's different, piano to steel, in that your technique accommodates your aural preferences, as a string player accommodates to accompany a singer or a piano, in the case of a concerto.
But no matter how you tune, a third will be wide of beatless, JI or ET.
It's more personal with a steel; thus I conclude you're all doing it right. Each steel is different, each ear is different.
This is brief, but I hope it helps.
Happy to.
I finally got around to reading the entire thread, including the links to back pages.
The above link covers pretty much all the history, beginning with cogent responses by Chas Smith, David Doggett, and Jeff Smith, on page 3, who knows quite a lot about it.
But my statements here will eventually get back to the topic, which is tuning the pedal steel, and the problems I have been able to glean from posts. Bear with me.
Trying to figure out what is generally meant by steelers re sharp or flat thirds, I have these facts about the equal temperament. All thirds are sharp from just, fourths are similarly 'wide', and 5ths are 'narrow'.
Take the third; as b0b says, the ratio is 5/4. This means that the 5th harmonic of F coincides with the 4th harmonic of A. (A tuner will then flat the F by about 7 beats per second.)
Why? If I were to tune the intervals F-A, A-C#, and C#-F 'beatless', or justly tuned, I would not end up with an octave; the hi F would be flat from the lo F.
And we know how the circle of 5ths, all tuned beatless, doesn't come out with the same starting pitch. To do that, you must narrow the fifths and widen the fourths (from beatless).
Tuning wars are not solely the purvue of steel players; among piano tuners, there are 'A' tuners and 'C' tuners. A tuners start with an A and tune the F to an ideal third beat rate; C tuners tune the F for an ideal 5th beat rate. They do not agree.
I used two forks (now two notes from a Kord tuner), C, for me, and A, for guitar and violin players, since I tuned lots of studios, symphonies, and bands.
Being a piano player, I like a strong 5th, a slower beating than a true ET. Right away there is a compromise involved. That is, my progression of thirds is not perfect, but my fifths work very well in ensembles. As I tune up the scale, I check my 13ths (an octave + a fifth) and tune them beatless, which maintains strong fifths, and the stretch is implied.
Electric pianos: there are 12 pots, so the entire piano is governed by that.
An electronic, 'sampled' piano, is sampled (from a concert class grand) at each octave; thus you get the 'stretch.'
I think you can draw your own conclusions.
The pedal steel's temperament is over its 10- or 12-string compass. Thus, to accommodate the natural sounding stretch, how you play is involved. You set your thirds to accommodate that, you place your bar, say an octave up, to accommodate that, with your ear.
And so, it's different, piano to steel, in that your technique accommodates your aural preferences, as a string player accommodates to accompany a singer or a piano, in the case of a concerto.
But no matter how you tune, a third will be wide of beatless, JI or ET.
It's more personal with a steel; thus I conclude you're all doing it right. Each steel is different, each ear is different.
This is brief, but I hope it helps.
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Barry Blackwood
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Yes.<SMALL> Ever been out of tune on a recording???</SMALL>
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