Ever been out of tune on a recording???

Bobbe Seymour · Post by **Bobbe Seymour** » 25 Apr 2005 8:26 pm

Michael, exactly! This is why some classic compositions were written to be played in only one key. (Sonada in A flat minor)
The pianos were tuned only for this tune, or series of tunes that also fit this temperment. Remember, there were no triple neck pianos back then! No compensators, no anti-detuning devices for pianos, no BCT or "Kid Rock Voice tuners". All pianos were "Push Pull" withj a lot of "Lift".
Imagine doing a session and having to take your own piano in the the 1800's? Better have a large horse,
Bobster,

Jim Phelps · Post by **Jim Phelps** » 25 Apr 2005 8:51 pm

Bobbe you crack me up! I'll bet it was really tough to make a living as a session player, back in the 1800's.

Eric West · Post by **Eric West** » 25 Apr 2005 8:51 pm

Some guy named J.S. Bach... or something like that... I forget now... I've slept since then. Before Equal Tempered instruments, there were harpsichords and pianos that were different tunings, some in C, some in G, etcetera. Now being a harmonica player doesn't sound so bad, try hauling 7 pianos around to play a gig? With equal tempered tuning, one can play in all twelve diatonic keys and not sound incredibly out of tune.

Well MG, here's something that'll tie a knot in your underwear..

We are calling it opposite things.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>For the last 400 years, an ironically similar period for which slavery of another kind was in existence in Europe, the use of unequal temperament was slowly banished as the dictates of the composer demanded an irreducible unit of pitch capable of unproblematic modulation.. In the Baroque period, just before the final codification of all pitch organisation, there were well over one hundred possibilities for constructing different gradations between each pitch within twelve divisions of a scale. Tuning systems such as Meantone, Kirnberger, Silbermann, and Vallotti emphasized the different sounds of home keys, and an improvisationary modulation to a distant key was a truely exotic sonic journey.

When Bach wrote his two books of Well Tempered Clavier music, he meant 'well' not 'even' as is commonly misrepresented. In other words, every key was meant to have a distinct personality and sound; whereas today, every key in equal temperament is identical - every semitone difference between each note is identical. -Veryan Weston and Jon Rose- <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I threw this in because I don't buy it, for one, and it was only a matter of time before some obfuscatory source would tell us that JS Bach did not indeed propose "equal temperament".

In fact, the Mesopotamians were doing it a thousand years before Bach was born.

What has been represeted as "Equal Temperament" in the last hundred pages of discussion on it here has been those that tune their instruments to where the little needle is on the little Zero on all their notes and all their changes.

Of course on a Piano the uppermost octaves go sharp a wee bit, and the lowermost intervals a wee bit flat..

Others that have these "Beatless" tuning systems have used hazy, nonspecific tunings where there are up to 30 cents difference in their "home position", and calling it Just Intonation. Evidently never realising that one or more of them is a beat off.

They seem to think that the Steel guitar is magically capable of attain True Just Intonation because of all the complex mechanisms, "compensators" renumerators, heebiejeebierators, etc, and that then because you can move this musicalmobius loop up and down the fretboard, you will be suddenly "In Tune" and all the other fretted and keyboard tuned instruments that tune to twelve equal and specific intervals are out. Bless their hearts....

Yeah, in other words TUNING TO 440. and to all 12 equally spaced intervals, as represented on digtal tuners, or tuning forks set to twelve equal tones, only deviating in the farthest reaches of the scales.

I'm not sure you feel that you need to do any further reading if you are so turned around that you don't know what's being discussed here, but Buddy Emmons' comments and explanation of how he tunes,are included on This Thread: A discussion of tuning "straight 440" or to twelve equal tonal segments as represented on tuners or forks. As opposed to tuning "non 440" or dicking around to try to get the beats out.

I don't feel like I have a lot more writing to do, and I'm not going to divulge my personal tuning method to anybody.

(I tune it till it sounds good to me using this secret method and then I play it.)

Others can do as they wish.

Beat on, or........

Bless their hearts...

EJL [This message was edited by Eric West on 25 April 2005 at 10:41 PM.]

Jim Phelps · Post by **Jim Phelps** » 25 Apr 2005 8:55 pm

I love the Beatless, myself.

I guess we'll all just have to try and survive without EJL's secret tuning method (bless his heart).

Bob C., this is all your fault!

[This message was edited by Jim Phelps on 26 April 2005 at 12:47 AM.]

Eric West · Post by **Eric West** » 25 Apr 2005 9:11 pm

I trust you all will..

EJL

Jim Phelps · Post by **Jim Phelps** » 25 Apr 2005 9:23 pm

Eric, you are one of a kind... thank heaven...

I didn't know you tuned everything straight up, if I'm getting what you're saying inbetween your colorful writing.

I tuned straight up while I was playing with keyboard players, it seemed to mesh better. Of course, when practicing by yourself, it sounds awful...but the knowledge that it sounds good "out front" when blended with the band is consolation.

Also makes it a lot easier to tune in a noisy bar or club.

I remember reading a few years ago here that BE tuned straight up, seems most don't though.

It's hard for me to listen to myself when I tune straight up if I hear myself very well and not blended in, but otherwise, trying to get everything compensated perfectly is an exercise in frustration and futility. [This message was edited by Jim Phelps on 25 April 2005 at 10:31 PM.]

Eric West · Post by **Eric West** » 25 Apr 2005 9:30 pm

Jim.

I mean no harm of course, and I find what you say is true.

At home I'll flat a thing or two sometimes, but tuning "by ear" I find that I like my thirds closer to if not "straight up", from just having done it so long. As has been said, with a "wolfy" fifth added, they even out to my ear, especially at stage volume, and guitars and keybroads (that's right) I play with don't sound so "sharp".. ( hehehehe.....)

Actually on one thread I found that a lot more than will admit it do too. Probably because of the exhaustion of agrueing with "Incrimentalists"..

night...

EJL

PS: I'm listening tonight to another of those evil "straight up" tuners, Bill Stafford, on his beautiful "Going Home" CD. [This message was edited by Eric West on 25 April 2005 at 10:45 PM.]

David L. Donald · Post by **David L. Donald** » 25 Apr 2005 10:21 pm

Ah, nice to see all campers playing nice again.

I think every steel player should spend an afternoon with a serious piano tuner,
and watch him go through a piano touch up, with him explaining his logic.

But not a from scratch on a out of tune piano job,
This has a whole other set of issues to confuse the steeler,
and aren't relevant.: like sectional over stretching and seasonal pre-tempering etc. A good piano tuner comes back every 3 or 4 months.

Yeah pay him for the job... well worth it.

And then test tune / retune your steel in a variety of ways relative to the pianos tunings...
yes tunings, it is more than one, depending on where you look.

And take the adivice of the piano tuner as to how to tune your steel.
Then lock this into his Peterson tuner.

Then go home and play it for awhile and see how it flys personally.

Both versus acoustic instruments, piano included, and the ubiquitous digital instruments in this life.
It might demand a note tweaking or two later, but likely not to much if at all.

Piano tuners deal with a MUCH greater set of tuning problems than any steel player.

One issue for steelers is the variety of "tempers" one must deal with.... ( yes pun intended.)
Not just the one on your instrument..

I venture that it won't be too far of what Buddy Emmons was advocating.
3rds being a bit more personalized in nature for each player and situation.

[This message was edited by David L. Donald on 25 April 2005 at 11:29 PM.][This message was edited by David L. Donald on 25 April 2005 at 11:32 PM.]

Kevin Hatton · Post by **Kevin Hatton** » 25 Apr 2005 10:32 pm

This all makes no difference if you are playing a steel thats out of regulation and doesn't have pulls that return dead true, and I've seen a few of these neglected guitars.

Bob Carlucci · Post by **Bob Carlucci** » 26 Apr 2005 4:36 am

I find it comical that the guy that STARTED this crap knows the LEAST about it!!!... I just tune my E to the tuner,get the "beats" out of the open strings, get the beats out of the stops, then a bit of tweakage hither and yon as needed.... DONE!!!... If its out of tune after that, Blame the guitar guy... or the drummer,, keyboard...bass..singers.... Sousaphone... bob

Eric West · Post by **Eric West** » 26 Apr 2005 5:16 am

And there's certainly nothing wrong with that..

EJL

Drew Howard · Post by **Drew Howard** » 26 Apr 2005 5:34 am

Yes.

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Drew Howard - website - Fessenden D-10 8/8, Fessenden SD-12 5/5 (Ext E9), Magnatone S-8, N400's, BOSS RV-3

Michael Garnett · Post by **Michael Garnett** » 26 Apr 2005 5:39 am

I find it comical that the guy that STARTED this crap knows the LEAST about it!!!... I just tune my E to the tuner,get the "beats" out of the open strings, get the beats out of the stops, then a bit of tweakage hither and yon as needed.... DONE!!!... If its out of tune after that, Blame the guitar guy... or the drummer,, keyboard...bass..singers.... Sousaphone... bob

Bob, you'd be amazed how many of the top pickers in the universe do the exact same thing. I've seen some guys tune an entire guitar (all the pulls too) with a tuning fork held up to the pickup. I only wish I could have their chops, intonation, and overall sound.

This is still the clash between two schools of thought. The "my ear tells me I'm in tune fellas", and the "guys that believe a little black or silver or blue box." Which one's right? I dunno.

-Michael

Charlie McDonald · Post by **Charlie McDonald** » 26 Apr 2005 6:28 am

I don't mind a little horseplay; just shows how divergent the subject can be.

As a piano tuner, I made my name on a 'slightly wide' F/C fifth, by perhaps a cent or two. Just enough for a roll, not too wolfy (to get technical). This results in a slightly wide octave (as the upper F of the temperament scale must obey its own laws of physics.
The key is the thirds, used to check the tuning. The F/A (or E/G#) should have a lower beat rate than the minor third above (A/C). No need to scope it out, a rough idea is good enough.
Let's just say, a strong fifth, somewhere between a true 'equal' temperament (good luck!) and a justly tuned fifth seems to work best in ensemble; it gets the praises of the other players, accommodates guitars very well.
In the end, it's the ear, not the scope.

Gene Jones · Post by **Gene Jones** » 26 Apr 2005 7:51 am

duplicate post! [This message was edited by Gene Jones on 26 April 2005 at 09:07 AM.]

Gene Jones · Post by **Gene Jones** » 26 Apr 2005 8:06 am

I'm certainly not one with enough expertise to solve the tuning controversy, but what little experience I have is that it is a disaster to accept a single note on a tuner as being in-tune. After everyone has tuned, I always tune to a chord from the instrument that I am most likely to clash with.

Many will take exception to this, but I would rather be "out of tune together" than for one of us to be "in tune" and the other to be "out of tune".
www.genejones.com

James Sission · Post by **James Sission** » 26 Apr 2005 10:54 am

Larry, that is exactly what I am saying. How often does someone dance by the stage and tell you your out of tune ? Probably not to often, unless it was an out of work musician, then he is probably tone deaf which if why he is dancing and not playing.If its pleasing to the ear, then play it. I was also showing that if you use a certain method by which to tune to a certain pitch, then you test that with a secondary method, chances are there is going to be conflict. Basically, it goes back to what Mr. Seymoure frist posted, its never in "PERFECT TUNE" some are just closer than others. I actually called Bob Bowman over the weekend, before seeing this post, because I wanted to ask him why I saw Eb(-16) on a tuning chart. His response to me was pretty much what I thought it would be: "it means minus 16 cents from Eb, but dont worry about all that, just tune it so it sounds good to you." One of the best pieces of advise I have had so far, aside from Ricky Davis talking about tone, he has the right idea, "K.I.S.S.".....James

Savell · Post by **Savell** » 26 Apr 2005 11:29 am

.[This message was edited by Savell on 29 May 2005 at 06:49 PM.]

Terry Edwards · Post by **Terry Edwards** » 26 Apr 2005 12:34 pm

It just occurred to me that the gentle rolling of the bar to create some vibrato evolved from the necessity make yourself sound more in or out of tune and therefore in harmony with the rest of the band!

Not only is it a difficult instrument to master technique wise, it is always either in or out of tune depending on who is listening!

Theoretically speaking of course.

Bless all your ears,

Terry

Tony Prior · Post by **Tony Prior** » 26 Apr 2005 2:09 pm

I think it would be most appropriate if someone invented and manufactured the PERFECT Steel Guitar bar, with little crooks and bends in it so we wouldn't have this issue.

Obviously a straight bar is a deterent !

ok, my tuning technique...
I start by tuning my E's to straight up 441..then make my way worse from there...

t

PS..we may need Rodney King here on this thread..[This message was edited by Tony Prior on 26 April 2005 at 03:30 PM.]

Larry Strawn · Post by **Larry Strawn** » 26 Apr 2005 3:59 pm

James,,
I gotta work on the K.I.S.S. principle, that's all I know..

But I'm getting an education in this thread, just gotta keep sorting it out !!

Larry

Ricky Davis · Post by **Ricky Davis** » 26 Apr 2005 4:37 pm

My Take on the whole tuning issue is:.
How you tune; how you hear intonation and how you play in tune, is all relative to the progression of your training of your EAR.
As you progress in your Ear training(if you train your ear at all) you will find yourself tuning different as you go along; you will find you hear tuning differently when listening as you go along; and you will find yourself playing differently as you go along> In the quest of training your ear.
You cannot train your ear by Tuning. You cannot train your ear by listening. There is only one way to train your ear; and that is by working long and hard with a fixed constant TONE.
Ricky

Eric West · Post by **Eric West** » 26 Apr 2005 5:20 pm

If it really doesn't matter how a person tunes, it shouldn't be an issue for those heretics that tune to tuning forks, strobe tuners, or them there newfangledy black boxes..

Not that I know any of those heretics..

C is, or can be actually C# or B (Cb) with the appropriate amount of explaination.

I've certainly read enough to see how it could be looked at thataway..

EJL

Eric West · Post by **Eric West** » 26 Apr 2005 5:39 pm

Damn Ricky, I almost got away..

So..

Does a person train their ears by playing along thousands of times with people or instruments that don't flat their thirds 15 cents and learn to instinctively flat them?

Or is the opposite true

Is it possible to train oneself to ET playing along with thousands of times of playing with instruments that tune that way?

It's a simple enough question.

(Detuning to become more in line with good intonation and meshing with differently tuned instruments that one plays with eventually reaches a point of diminishing returns. Sooner, I'd think, rather than later..)

I'd also think that "tuning" would at least have a minor role in training one's playing ear unless a person played an instrument that couldn't be tuned, like a xylophone or electronic piano. If indeed a person is going to play an instrument that must be..

I know the answers for me, and I'm happy with them at long last.

EJL

I somehow knew the water was getting a little warmer all the time,(I saw the guy turning up the flame) so I jumped out and hopped away.... -The Frog that walked on-

[This message was edited by Eric West on 26 April 2005 at 06:43 PM.]

Jim Phelps · Post by **Jim Phelps** » 26 Apr 2005 5:41 pm

This thread has just brought another question to my mind. I hope this isn't too far off-topic and I don't want to hijack Bob's thread... what the hey, this poor thread has already been to he** and back...

Imagine that someday someone invents a pedal steel or electronic device that makes the output of the steel pre-tuned, "perfect" notes, as in the same way as your electronic keyboard synthesizers and midi keyboards are pre-tuned to be in tune. You still have to hold the bar over the fret, moving the bar up or down from the fret causes the whole setup to go up or down in pitch, but all the strings are electronically pre-tuned together, along with all the pedals and knee-levers. You can program it for any tuning or pedal/kneelever setup. Got it?

OK then... what notes would the device tune the strings and stops to, to be in "perfect tune"? The same notes as a keyboard synth? If so, would it sound good or would we hear beating? Would it be the same as tuning straight-up?

[This message was edited by Jim Phelps on 26 April 2005 at 06:47 PM.]