Club Management Consultants? PacNW

Eric West · Post by **Eric West** » 5 Jul 2004 10:56 am

There is a recent folding of 7 night a week music in Portland. It is a shame, as there is a nice large venue, a lot full of trucks and bored drivers, daily and nightly, and a fairly active C&W crowd that seems to come out with regularity to advertised events. Good safe, accessable location.

What's happened is that it's all been an endless string of "trying different things". None of which have worked. They went from "On Nights" being Tues thru Sat, with things like Ladies night, Radio Night, Dance Lesson night, building up to weekends, to using the whole week for "try out bands" which were picked willy nilly, and trying 'R&B, Club Jazz' Alt Country', and just plain Horrible Critter Club Shows. ( Many of which I've sadly been a part of..)

Then the cover charge went up to drive the rest of the "regular, decent weekend crowd" out, save for the "hardcore scuzzballs".

Now it's gone to a weekday DJ that plays to a totally empty house, and weekends that fill about half the seats, and a bar staff that still can't and won't "keep up". There's ONE good band of part time players that's managed to play there consistently, but they won't work more than two weekends a month.

What is needed IMHO is a consultant that could oversee event coordination, band selection, setting "off night" designations for maximum entertainment, and being able to present this to a corporate board along with a track record and resume for doing same.

The problem is that other than a well meaning "entertainment director" there haven't been any of the above for ten years that I know of.

Local blood sucking "Talent Agencies" have fallen flat, and taken the money from the bands instead of the club, as well as with few exceptions, have lousy perceptions of "good bands".

Now it's at the point where the wages have fallen to the point where anybody playing music seriously laughs at playing the venue for the wages, and the "big money" weekends pay no better then Critter Clubs.

I"m thinking of calling Steve Cox, whom I've known casually for a bunch of years. Maybe it could, with a comprehensive entertainment program, become used, instead of just sitting and waiting for the space to be leased out to a Subway Franchise..

I look at other venues around the country, like the BS in Austin, and don't really see much forethought in their weekly "programs".

I'm not saying that it's not working there, because I don't look at their "till", but there's GOT to be something, some agency or consulting firm, or individual with a track record for SUCCESS in these regional "meccas" that have deteriorated, and ressurecting them with programs of radio coordination, event scheduling, and in general a strategy for same.

Any Ideas I get, I can probably forward, and at least be able to mull over with my local friends. I know a lot of folks. I know the "Entertainment Director" casually as well, and I'm sure he's up against a brick well as well. His justification of spending has been countered by a steadily shrinking till.

This isn't a call to rally against "young people" " Clear Channel" or MADD, being the things we all love to hate, but maybe for the injection of an idea that could revitalize this damn near dead venue..

I understand that "radio exposure" has turned more into unaffordable graft, which hasn't helped either, as in it costs so much more than the club can expect to bring in.

What's "working" out there.

Strippers with Guitars??

Thanks for any serious, or entertaining idears..

EJL

Ray Montee · Post by **Ray Montee** » 5 Jul 2004 4:24 pm

Having watched Taylor's Viewpoint some years back, One of the most successful private clubs in the area for many years, taking this same terminal SLIDE, as well as Jodi's Country Club and too many others to recall....I think there are at least two options for Jubitz Mgt. to consider.
Get that current DJ about 10,000 watts output for his/her recorded program along with a bunch of generic sounding NEW COUNTRY CD's; or, hire a group of DJ's with minimal experience and/or musical knowledge or expertise and have them rotate thro' the room on various nights. Heck, this is SHOW BIZ so they likely will work for next to nothing, right? This of course, to be followed by seven nights of Karioki (sp??)per week.....
OR, they could immediately go right into the mud and/or jello wrestling events that were a big hit at Taylor's place; to be followed by NUDE DANCERS and that crowd.
MOST IMPORTANTLY: We want these entertainers to be from the younger crowd so that they can better relate to the wants/desires of the younger audience.......who, after all, have the greatest amount of entertainment dollars to spend.
WHATEVER they do, they should NOT discourage young musicians from attempting to break into the music scene........but they should make sure that before any working band can build up a regular, loyal and profitable following.......they should change the entire format from country, to Blues, or whatever on regular short term basis so that no one in town has any idea what to expect from these facilities.
That seems to have been the pattern here in the great Oregon Country. Take live music out of FAMILY ORIENTATED dance halls, from neighborhood street dances, grange halls and the like, and move it into beer taverns and liquor lounges eliminating the possibiliy that families can go out for a fun time as a family group. Then with mismanagement of these facilities, BLAME THE BAND for not generating enough revenue for them to be successful. Perhaps they could just cut the pay of the over-paid musicians...... instead of giving the whole nightly budget to some guy that's role in life is to play records or CD's on a machine.
No longer is there a requirement that those in charge of entertainment have any kind of background in it or being a musician themselves. I remember decades ago when the push first started to replace "LIVE MUSIC" with recorded programs. It was called innovative, as I recall.

Eric West · Post by **Eric West** » 5 Jul 2004 5:24 pm

I know only too well Ray.

It has resulted in the obvious frustration of those like you that were "around" in the 50s-60s when big venues like D Street were packed to the rafters, and are now bare empty flea markets. Taylors has been a strip club for fifteen years, and the RimRock for ten..

It wasn't youse guys music that drove them out, it was more probably a cycle of greed on club owners, and radio promoters, ending up spiraling downward to the things we both rail about.

I might add that D Street, Springers, Taylors VP, and others, along with the Big Name Venues, like The Oriental Theatre next to Amato's sunk under the weight of god knows what. ( I was here in the 60s, but not old enough to get into them and play. I played in thetre productions and restaurants like Henry Fords, doing "dinner music" on classical guitar.)

It wasn't MADD, as they weren't even in existence then, Neither was Karoke or "DJ's".

It's still a mystery to me, because there was LOTS of good music there.

More into "my" era that sprung up after the movie "Urban Cowboy", where there were TWENTY clubs that went 7 nites a week..

It used to be that there were enough people that few of the clubs worried about radio promotion, or event coordination. THe people just CAME.

Then came all the parasites. Lawyers that sued establishments for people that got drunk and crashed their cars. Then The MADD Mothers, and the economy crashed a couple times.

THEN came the Karoke, DJs, and the rest to suck it down the tubes completely.

I don't blame musicians. Even the worst of them didn't kill it. The Best of them didn't Save it now did they?

I am just trying to get some ideas of how to fill a local club with 5 hundred bored truckdrivers holed up in their sleepers, and at least that many bored people looking for a place that has consistently good music.

I don't even care if I'm in those bands.

At this point they'd have to make PDX a "Stop" for nevada circuit bands, bi-monthly concerts by Bus Bands between SeaTac and LA etc, begin HEAVY radio promotion, and Co-Ordinate Events. Remember like the local place used to have MDA, Shriners, CP, and other benefits almost monthly wth HEAVY Radio ads.

The problem that's been presented to me is that there is a Corporate Entity that would have to be sold on a Management Team or plan thats a little above the regional shitbag agent/pimps.

They're going to do this, or mark my words, the available space will be sub let to a vitamin, massage, hardware, or other franchise and that will be that..

I hope not to see it happen.

I was looking at the famed Broken Spoke Saloon in Austin's website, and I see that they're not even open on Sundays and Mondays. S'up Widdat?..

Looks like they could use a similar program.

If only there was one.

Maybe there'll be some suggestions.

I know the nightmares, downward spiralling syndromes, and other things only too well.

I guess we'll see.

Lots of frustration, my old friend, that's for sure.

EJL

[This message was edited by Eric West on 05 July 2004 at 06:42 PM.]

Ken Lang · Post by **Ken Lang** » 5 Jul 2004 5:55 pm

I work just a few blocks from what was "The world famous Palimino Club."

It was hopping up to the late 70's and then took the same downward spiral as mentioned in above posts. The last time I drove by a couple of years ago it was a falling down empty eyesore of a place, mute to all the country music history that it once enjoyed.

Mark Herrick · Post by **Mark Herrick** » 6 Jul 2004 10:42 am

Yeah, it's too bad about the Palomino. I was lucky enough to get out there a couple of times before it closed in 1995.

------------------

Adrian Wulff · Post by **Adrian Wulff** » 8 Jul 2004 12:30 pm

Just cause I love to be a pain in the ass and play the devil's advocate-

What country band in Portland (and there are some great ones to be fair) has a following of more than 10 people or can draw to justify $250-$400 for 5 sets of music?

What country band puts on a great show, has charisma, or has a really original sound that would create a buzz that would get a club excited to book them?

I think we are witnessing the crumbling of country music (and the country bar scene) as we know it and something new is going to come out of it. Until then I predict we will soon be happy to get free drinks and a place to put a tip jar.

I'm just a CW whore and will get up where ever I can to pick, but I'm worse than Eric cause I'll do it for free (if the bands decent) and I think he stops at $50 and free Pepsi.

Take care,
Adrian

Stephen Gambrell · Post by **Stephen Gambrell** » 8 Jul 2004 8:18 pm

"What is needed IMHO is a consultant that could oversee event coordination, band selection, setting "off night" designations for maximum entertainment, and being able to present this to a corporate board along with a track record and resume for doing same."

Well, first of all, you're asking ANOTHER person to get involved, and P.R. don't come cheap! Where's the bucks coming from to pay this guy? My guess would be, oh, FROM THE BAND'S PAY?
The audience from the 80's, when I was able to make a good living playing full-time, have aged just as much as I have, and the NEW audience, if there is one, isn't as interested in what a 49 year old picker has to offer. Back in the day, we railed against duos, with canned percussion(the dreaded "beat box"), synthesized strings, fake background vocals----cause they could charge LESS than a 4 or 5 piece band, and still make more money per man---and, to tell the truth, more music.
Bobbe Seymour's latest tip addresses the issue of canned background music, specifically with Vern Gosdin. I guarantee that, with the canned music, comes a lower price, and not just because Vern hasn't been on the charts in years.
Sometimes(and this might be a good topic for a separate thread), we musicians may over-estimate a club, beer-joint, or truck stop audience. Do they really CARE that I've copped Brent Mason's solo note-for-note? Does it matter to somebody on the dance floor, Eric, that you've searched far and wide for the steel solo from Brad Paisley's tune? I probably haven't played as many gigs as you have, Eric, but I believe I've been at it as long, and I've watched the audience's attention span get shorter and shorter. And I've seen some real fine clubs die off, simply because the audience-(a) Went somewhere else
(b) Quit drinking
(c) Got old, and sick of hanging out in a bar, so they stayed home, raised kids, and went to work.
In other words, it's DYING, and there ain't a lot we can do about it. I play a half-dozen or less gigs a month, now, and I'm at a point where that's all I care for.
And Karaoke, Wet-T-Shirt contests, Amateur night, whatever? Sheer genius on the part of the club owner. Charge the crowd to get in, THEN use 'em for the entertainment!
D.J.'s? He's usually the owner's brother-in-law, or a friend of the bartender, but he works CHEAP! AND, he stocks the bar before he goes home! What self-respecting guitar player(or steel, or whatever) is gonna do THAT?
The cps ARE gonna lock up drunk drivers(see Stuart, Marty), so folks are gonna be more careful. Which means less drinking, which means less money in the till, which means cutting the band back...
See where this is going? I'm glad I got to play full-time, and got to see a whole lot of the country, and do a lot of stuff, that I wouldn't have been able to, otherwise. But those days are going, and face it, the five-night-a-week bar musician is fast becoming a thing of the past.
Be glad you got to be a part of it.
Don't forget to smile.
ALWAYS leave 'em wanting mor

James Morehead · Post by **James Morehead** » 9 Jul 2004 6:34 pm

Management? Nice concept---works great on paper. We average pickers just happen to be on the wrong side of that paper!
So, management?? or lack of management? Who do you think controls the trends? Us pickers are still riding horses and drinking beer, the management system is riding learjets and drinking champagne. Wish I could afford a new set of strings.[This message was edited by James Morehead on 09 July 2004 at 08:13 PM.]

Eric West · Post by **Eric West** » 10 Jul 2004 1:23 am

Well. I guess we all do what we can.

I suppose I write for free.

I think the money thing is pretty tied in to self esteem with music. I don't know why.

What is that.. Courage to change the things I can, and the wisdom to know the difference.

That, and discretion, is what I pray for mostly.

Maybe I'll give Cox a call.

It's worth a shot.

EJL

Stephen Gambrell · Post by **Stephen Gambrell** » 10 Jul 2004 5:06 am

You left out "Serenity-to accept the things I cannot change."--probably the MOST important one, in this case.
Wait, I think I saw the elephant...

Ray Montee · Post by **Ray Montee** » 10 Jul 2004 7:57 am

"musicians" all too willing to play anywhere anytime for "FREE" have definitely made a negative impact on live, working musicians in this area. It's hard to under bid "FREE".

After the rock and roll craze, management's routine response to higher pay for our band was: "We just had a rock and roll band here for ten weeks. There were 7 or 8 musicans, and they only wanted $100.00 per night for the whole band. And you want how much?????"

Tough to beat that deal or what? I may be old and slow and not up to date and even unliked by some.......however, if my years of highly diversified playing and the sizeable investment in my equipment isn't worth anything..........then sitting at home listening to great music on my sound system is the best thing I can do. It's certainly way out in front of being a cheap, anybody can have me type of prostituting musican.

Eric West · Post by **Eric West** » 10 Jul 2004 10:37 am

Steve. I think too many people don't get past that first part. It is probably an Adult A.D.D thing..

There's more than one way to skin a cat.

In reply to one of the above, it would be a Consulting Firm or agency rep that has a REAL portfolio of club resurection and management WITH a PLAN for radio promotion, event coordination, and a flow chart for same. Not some shitbird agency like we have locally that goes in and offers the club bands for cheap that will pay them out of their own pitiful wages. THAT path has a provable track record of failure. Maybe that's why they're not even in the game anymore around here.

I find a paralell with my work as a heavy equipment hauler and dump truck driver.

Lots of guys merely go out and find a company that has a lot of trucks and offer to work cheaper than the other drivers.

Myself, I find a company with a few NICE trucks and present the owner with reasons that I can make him more money than the other drivers, a long as he pays me MORE than them. I"m proved right, and we both win. I will no longer work for employers that treat their employees badly.

There ARE dump truck and other drivers that "work for free". I watch their demeanor though, and their constant looking at the ground, and avoiding other drivers, and choose not to be one. There isn't an argument thay can win, and they know it..

I'm not willing to "stay home", Unless there's a willingnes to do so happily, it's the worst kind of surrender, but I'm willing to look at every angle of the business, what kinds of clubs and bands ARE playing AND making money, and try to do what I have to do to help them make MORE money.

I remember clearly the time in 98-9 that I worked extra hard with a critter club band that was lead by a slobbering drunk, and after I got my '63 Panhead Harley, I told him how pathetic he and his band were, and prepared to quit, take as much time off as I needed and rebuild my bike. I got fired like I planned, and ended up going to work for Monty Moss, a hot young player with a full schedule about two weeks after the start of my "planned haitus".

If and when I decide to "Stay home," which I've not ruled out, it will be as gladly accepted as my "playing out", or I have friends that have agreed by handshake contract to shoot me dead, no matter what excuse I offer to save my miserable wretched life.

Friends like that?

Priceless.

I'm still looking for a formula that can be presented to a local club that will increase their business, and allow many people that still want to get out and pay money to see music, the opportunity.

This last week a NEW Country Western Bar opened, and the up and coming, band I'm working with has presented them with dates we have open in October, along with a promo pack, and list of dates we are playing in a full schedule before that. And afterwards.

OR, I could back out, work weekends at my day job, making twice the money I do playing weekends, and have more money.

I seem to be addicted to GETTING PAID for playing.

My motivation?

Sometimes, as I've said, I think it's pure Spite..

Still looking for an individual workable strategy.

Lord know I know enough of the excuses.

The Devil is always right there with a thousand reasons to quit.

My Muse, Velda is always there with her summer dress on wanting me to go out and play promo gigs too. That's why I keep her locked in the basement a lot of the time...

EJL

"We keep rollin down the Fast Lane, like young men, feeling no pain..-W/W-"

[This message was edited by Eric West on 10 July 2004 at 12:07 PM.]

Eric West · Post by **Eric West** » 10 Jul 2004 10:54 am

(Since it's "my thread", and I don't have my draft of the latest "Muse Meeting" ready for free pub yet..)

Also, I have CD in the mail to me with a dozen or more old Lorretta Lynn songs for a band that I'm doing a paid opener with at the end of the month, and spent last week at Rebel Ricky's site picking up some of those GREAT old Hal Rugg intros. The "screechy tinny ones".

I'll be ready, and it should be fun.

Looks like my year will again be "made" when my little friend from England, Sue Parkerhouse comes through on her yearly pilgramage through Portland on her way to the ISGC to see me. I have regular weekend gigs with a band that I finally LIKE, and a pickup gig one of the weekends with a great Waylon/Hank Alt Country gig I've been swapping with a couple guys.

Sometimes it seems that the frogs are too durn ugly, and some of them don't turn into princes or princesses in my case. You have to know the signs I guess. I look for people with real phones, and cars.

When they're too drunk to stand up on any given night, or take bottles of vicidins trying to kill themselves, it's a pretty good bet that they're "frogs for life".

Now where did I put that wart proof chapstick...

*

EJL
[This message was edited by Eric West on 11 July 2004 at 12:22 PM.]

Pete Burak · Post by **Pete Burak** » 10 Jul 2004 5:24 pm

I don't know of one band or musician that is playing for free here in Portland, nor do I know of a "cheap, anybody can have me type of prostituting musican" in the Portland area.
Pickers around here (that want to play out live) are making as much as the market can afford to pay for live music.
Every steel player I know (that wants to get out and play) in the greater Portland area is in a working band getting payed whatever the venue can afford to pay or whatever they can bring in at the door.
Many local steel players are playing in multiple bands because there aren't enough steel players to go around.
I do know that there were many local steel players who passed on a 4 month sit down gig (the Patsy Cline gig) playing traditional country that paid $50 a night for 2 sets, 8-10pm, in a non-smoking environment playing for folks who came to listen and applaud.
In the end, I split the duties with another local player and it turned out to be quite lucrative.
I'm currently playing with 2 bands regularly (often 3 or 4), and if anybody wants one of my gigs, just let me know and I'll get you the gig.

Edit:
Oops, I just re-read the topic.
Eric, I think one thing that would bring folks out to the Jubitz would be to offer free smokes like the tobacco sponcers do. You know, those cute little mini-packs.
Seriously, Tobacco sponcers have money for promotions that the bar doesn't, or doesn't want to risk.
Give the local radio, beer, and tobacco, promo guys a call to line up a string of sponcered events.
That's all the guy you want to hire is gonna do.
FWIW, Colgate packed the place from what I could see.
On the other hand, financial success of the Ponderosa Lounge may be the last thing that the owners of the Truck Stop are interested in. It may be that they figured out that it's in their best interest for the place to flounder.

Maybe???... Full Contact Line Dancing?
[This message was edited by Pete Burak on 10 July 2004 at 06:54 PM.]

Bill Hatcher · Post by **Bill Hatcher** » 10 Jul 2004 5:34 pm

I did a record a few years ago with an artist from Atlanta named Bill Gentry. Not much happened with the record BUT Gentry and a few guys got together and leased an empty Service Merchandise store in a suburb here in Atlanta and opened a BIIIIGGGGGGGGG country nite club. On a decent Friday or Saturday night they run THOUSANDS of people through the place!!! Live bands, acts from Nashville. They just spent one million dollars on a smoke cleaning air system to try to circumvent no smoking regulations here. Place is called Wild Bills. Check out and see if they have a website. Plenty of live action here.

Edit: website is www.wildbillsatlanta.com. Man you got to see this place if you want to see what draws a crowd.[This message was edited by Bill Hatcher on 10 July 2004 at 06:36 PM.]

Eric West · Post by **Eric West** » 11 Jul 2004 3:10 am

Pete.

(I heard that the problem with the Colgate sponsored Showdown was that the Radio people got most of the money. Also those things are painfully close to "free entertainment". I myself participated as a pained appendix to the band I was in. I always swear I'll never do another. The "prize gig" was one I'd already played with Monty Moss a couple years ago, and it didn't pay much more than a hundred bucks. I never even stayed to see Martina Mc Whatever her name was. I think Melody G played there too. Things like that have to be done in an unbroken string with continuity, or the radio money is wasted. The Thursday following the month long srting of thursdays there for the Colgate event was packed. Since there was no "follow up", the following thursdays were and are still stone dead.)

You're not far from wrong on the planned "failure". I have known all the managers from the 80s on, and I talk with he current manager. Any info I get from this query I will pass on to him.

( also the Atlanta Club would be a good model.)

We had a conversation about the possibility of incorporating scantily clad dancers accompanying a band. It was an idea I had with Jason Beito, a fine young energetic bass player. I told him that it would empty out all the sleepers. He retorted as I anticipated, that the first time a truck driver stacked up and 18-22 wheeler, it would be lawsuit city.

That's why, and believe me, I've asked almost all of the 5 managers I have known there, that the bar service there is so slow. THey DON'T want to push drinks for the same reason. It makes for a huge turnover of bar help.

We'll see I guess. Possibly the thing about having "passing through bands" give affordable concerts like the recent one for 12$ a head they had at Dukes. They now have a pretty good house sound system. Possibly like I said, a mixture of radio promotion and events that don't center around drinking.

I'd hate to see it go the Karoke route, and the lame DJ thing that's there now is pretty pathetic.

I've got hope.

EJL[This message was edited by Eric West on 11 July 2004 at 04:24 AM.]

Eric West · Post by **Eric West** » 11 Jul 2004 11:31 am

Oh, and Pete's not kidding about the gig thing. Give him a call. I've been looking for ways to swap weekends on a couple dates, and until last week, it looked like there might not be enough "me". Things might change, but for now, I"m playing with three bands, with One as my Main gig, the John Henry Band, booked pretty soild through the year, and have a couple I've "terminated" my playing with.

I haven't heard of one that pays less than 50 bucks, even if it's a "door thing".

Of course, you've got to be able to play the required material.

Right now I've got a 20 song list of songs I've got to learn for an opening gig for Deke Dickerson at the end of the month. None of them recorded after 1965, and I'm sweating it. That Hal Rugg "stuff" provided us licks that are even today considered "new".

EJL