Thoughts on 12 string vs 10…hard to change?

Glenn Demichele · Post by **Glenn Demichele** » 26 Oct 2023 7:37 pm

I looked, but what does "two week neck" mean?

Ken Pippus · Post by **Ken Pippus** » 26 Oct 2023 7:47 pm

Two weeks notice after detection of a “jazz chord.”

Glenn Demichele · Post by **Glenn Demichele** » 26 Oct 2023 8:57 pm

Ahhh! Thanks. Hilarious. Not bragging, but I can get two weeks after some of the stuff that comes out of my E9. Proud to say though I’ll never get fired for my attitude, which is always the best reason.

Fred Treece · Post by **Fred Treece** » 27 Oct 2023 6:21 pm

I was about 3 years into playing E9 S10 when I decided to take the S12 plunge. Those bottom two strings gave me fits for a couple of months, but I just kept running my picking exercises into them until I got used to how 12 strings sounds, looks, and feels. I was not aware of a string spacing difference, so that is interesting. I have experimented with bare-fingered picking on both 10- and 12-string necks, and it does seem more difficult on the 12, to the point where going back to fingerpicks is my final decision on the matter.

Bobby D. Jones · Post by **Bobby D. Jones** » 27 Oct 2023 7:52 pm

Mr. John Huey is the person I heard refer to the E9th neck as the Money Neck, At the Washington Pa. Steel Show.

Ian Rae · Post by **Ian Rae** » 28 Oct 2023 12:18 am

Fred, I was also bemused by the mention of string spacing. Bit of a red herring. 10-string is tight enough already, and there would be no benefit in making things even trickier.

Chris Brooks · Post by **Chris Brooks** » 28 Oct 2023 5:08 am

Nice thing about a 12 string is that you have a low tonic note in no-pedals position on string 12; and a low tonic note in pedals AB position on string 11 (when pedal B is hooked up to raise that G# string--like the other 2 G#s.)

Ian Rae · Post by **Ian Rae** » 28 Oct 2023 5:34 am

Also, I hook up the low E to the F lever, but instead of raising, it goes down to C# to give a low root in the AF position

J D Sauser · Post by **J D Sauser** » 28 Oct 2023 6:25 am

I think that 12 strings forces the player to develop a more correct picking hand technique, freely “hovering” back and out in the same picking stance instead of resting on a back neck or a pad and trying to reach out with the fingers, which is something some get away with on an 8 or 10 string... on a 12 string you won't.

I would theorize that this would be the biggest hurdle to overcome for those with a sloppy picking hand technique.

Yes, there is the visual difference to locate string groups and patterns, but I think that a week of conscious practice takes care of that long before re-learning a picking hand that was picking out of a rested wrist.
Once that’s acquired, it would make a better 10 string player.

I went from thumb + 2 finger picks to a 3rd finger pick at age 55. It's a 1 month struggle, and 2 months later it's part of the life... a 3 month thing.

Can you play a Day or Emmons setup? Can you switch the E-lower lever to the right or left knee?... it's a 3 month thing.

All these things is like learning to ride a bike... once it's "in", it's there for life.

… JD.

Ian Rae · Post by **Ian Rae** » 28 Oct 2023 7:43 am

I agree. Having nowhere to lean makes for good discipline.

Bobby D. Jones · Post by **Bobby D. Jones** » 31 Oct 2023 8:39 pm

I even moved my E raise and lower to right knee, When I changed to 12U. I had no big problem with the knee levers it took a little wood shedding and all worked out good.

The hardest problem I had was with the 10B-8E-6G# grip. On Jeff Newman's 12 Uni. tuning, The grip is now 9B-8E-6G#, A 1 string took several hours of Wood Shedding, To get a near 50 years of memory changed to the new grip.

Chris Brooks · Post by **Chris Brooks** » 1 Nov 2023 7:17 am

Ian, I also have my E to F lever hooked up to string 12 to send it down to C#. Good for scaring guitar players!

Fred Treece · Post by **Fred Treece** » 2 Nov 2023 5:53 pm

Chris Brooks wrote:Ian, I also have my E to F lever hooked up to string 12 to send it down to C#. Good for scaring guitar players!

Yikes yeah as a guitar player I wish steelers would tune to Db instead.

Dennis Montgomery · Post by **Dennis Montgomery** » 2 Nov 2023 6:39 pm

Went from my 8 string Fender 400 (custom tuning) to a Mullen SD12 (extended D9) so it was pretty much like starting a completely new instrument

I'd originally ordered a Mullen SD10 but while I was waiting for the build day to come I thought, why not go for a 12? If I hate it I can always leave strings 11 & 12 off. I changed my order and I'm so glad I did. I'd definitely feel like I was missing out if I went to a 10

Johnie King · Post by **Johnie King** » 3 Nov 2023 10:15 am

12 string steels are cool.

Ian Rae · Post by **Ian Rae** » 3 Nov 2023 2:11 pm

...and keyless ones are cool and short

John Hyland · Post by **John Hyland** » 3 Nov 2023 3:56 pm

Wondering what the string spacing at the fingers are?

Ian Rae · Post by **Ian Rae** » 3 Nov 2023 4:40 pm

Same as on a 10-string. There seems to be a notion that the spacing on a 12-string must be tighter, but no. The guitar is wider, unsurprisingly

Roger Rettig · Post by **Roger Rettig** » 4 Nov 2023 9:52 am

Ian:

I'm changing strings for the first time on my new keyless Williams. I'm finding it challenging to maintain that 1/4" that Bill R. recommends (between the nut-roller and the string-holding block); you can start that way but, once you tune up, the block has to move away from the nut.

It's my first keyless.

This is how it came but, halfway through changing them, they're all over the place!

Ian Rae · Post by **Ian Rae** » 4 Nov 2023 11:37 am

I wouldn't worry. It's only a recommendation, and Bill's had more practice! This is how mine looks, and it plays and sounds just fine

Roger Rettig · Post by **Roger Rettig** » 4 Nov 2023 12:22 pm

Thanks, Ian.

I don't care for them aesthetically, but I must say the tuning is really stable. I barely have to touch it whereas my Emmons is prey to the ups-and-downs of FL weather.

I finished changing strings and mine's not quite as neat as yours, Ian. It's certainly nothing like it was when new two months ago!

John Hyland · Post by **John Hyland** » 4 Nov 2023 12:27 pm

Roger Rettig wrote:Thanks, Ian.

I don't care for them aesthetically, but I must say the tuning is really stable. I barely have to touch it whereas my Emmons is prey to the ups-and-downs of FL weather.

I finished changing strings and mine's not quite as neat as yours, Ian. It's certainly nothing like it was when new two months ago!

Doesn’t look too untidy at all. But you could see if you can swap for a new one.

Ian Rae · Post by **Ian Rae** » 4 Nov 2023 3:08 pm

The Williams changer isn't particularly pretty, but it's efficient and rock solid - I seldom have to touch it.
Obviously the shorter the length of string between the nut and the anchor screw, the more stable it will be - that's the whole point of a keyless tuner.

(In my own tuner design that length is zero)

Steve Lipsey · Post by **Steve Lipsey** » 5 Nov 2023 1:21 pm

My trick with my Williams keyless is to lay the string in between nut rollers, pull it taut, lock it down, and then lift the string up to the roller. Not that hard to do. And then the extra string is minimal, except in the end ones, which hit the curve of the the metal surround and can't go all the way in...
And yeah, the third string always goes a bit further than the others..

Ian Rae · Post by **Ian Rae** » 5 Nov 2023 4:13 pm

I think next time I shall try the following: screw the end ones in as far as they will go; screw the rest in level with them; screw the 3rd one in all the way. And use Steve's inter-roller trick too.
Worth a try just for the fun of it