Keyless Technology

Ernie Pollock · Post by **Ernie Pollock** » 10 Jan 2005 7:24 am

I also have played the Klines & found them to be a great guitar, they keyless that I am now playing is kind of a 'home made' S-12 that a friend of mine built, needless to say he was a great machinist, & he made this one a keyless around 20 or so years ago, still plays & stays in tune well, and string breakage is the best that I have ever owned. Keyless works real good!! Have you ever noticed you don't see many dinosours around these days? I think they had a problem with 'change'. Hum??

Ernie

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Ernie Pollock · Post by **Ernie Pollock** » 10 Jan 2005 7:25 am

I also have played the Klines & found them to be a great guitar, they keyless that I am now playing is kind of a 'home made' S-12 that a friend of mine built, needless to say he was a great machinist, & he made this one a keyless around 20 or so years ago, still plays & stays in tune well, and string breakage is the best that I have ever owned. Keyless works real good!! Have you ever noticed you don't see many dinosours around these days? I think they had a problem with 'change'. Hum??

Ernie

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Bill Stafford · Post by **Bill Stafford** » 10 Jan 2005 7:40 am

I am glad to see the improvements in the "keyless" technology. I am fairly familiar with all the different models on the market and find them all very well suitable for the job. With the EXCEL model, I have been able to increase the string length (scale) to 25 1/2"-getting close to those old great sounding pedalless steels with the 26" scale.
My EXCEL, in effect, has the strings mounted on the base plate of the neck thereby eliminating string length yet again-even with the longer scale. The mounting system here is on a sliding mechanism that moves vertically against this base. Works great and after two years and a few months, I finally broke the first string.(Not my first string, but the 018 ga B string). Just finally wore out. This changer does not pull the string down on the rotating axle as most other changers. This is a horizontal pull and there is no wear or tension on the radius as on the rotating type changers.
This tuner allows me to play for days and weeks and longer without having to continually tune the strings.
But it all boils down to a personal preference. I am anxious to see and play the new design of Ed Packard's- incorporating both the tuning adjustments and the changer adjustments in one unit. Seems the way to go.
Bill Stafford

Erv Niehaus · Post by **Erv Niehaus** » 10 Jan 2005 8:13 am

I don't know a lot about the difference between keyed or keyless. All I know is that a keyless guitar reminds me of a chicken with its head chopped off.

Erv

Al Terhune · Post by **Al Terhune** » 10 Jan 2005 8:21 am

That's pretty deep, Erv...cosmic, almost!

Scott Appleton · Post by **Scott Appleton** » 10 Jan 2005 8:52 am

The keyless I tried for a week was one with screws on the end which you turned with an allen wrench. that
had a locking saddle on its end. The problem was the threads had play in them and you could not get
the string to set in exactly the cent position without
rocking back and forth a few times. Then when you changed the tension that ajustment would just move
a few cents and throw you out again. I wont mention
who's changer because it may have just been my unit that was bad.

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Mullen S12 Almost Mooney
71 Tele, Regal 45
Sho Bud S10 NP
Line 6 Flextone 3 + JBL D130, Nash 112

Pete Burak · Post by **Pete Burak** » 10 Jan 2005 9:20 am

"The problem was the threads had play in them and you could not get the string to set in exactly the cent position without
rocking back and forth a few times."

Scott,
I would agree that that would be an issue that I would not be willing to live with, and I too would have found that suspect.

My Keyless expierience as almost entirely with Sierra, and their Keyless tuners make micro-adjustability and ultra fine tuning tweaks a snap.

When fine tuning my keyed steels, I use a stringwinder to get a better hand-to-tuner leverage ratio.

Dave Zirbel · Post by **Dave Zirbel** » 10 Jan 2005 9:21 am

I haven't broke a string or had to tune my keyless Kline for about two months! It's an incredibly stable and precise guitar. I can play a 3-4 set gig with having to tune the open strings or the endplate tuners all night, pull it out of the case the next day and play it without having to make any adjustments.

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Dave Zirbel-
ZB Custom D-10 8 x 5, S-12U Kline 7 x6, Dobro Cyclops reissue, 1967 Fender Telecaster, Webb 6-14E, Fender Super Reverb
The Mother Truckers
The Cowlicks

Doug Earnest · Post by **Doug Earnest** » 10 Jan 2005 5:53 pm

I'm anxious to see how Sierra made the changer finger/tuner piece. I have been trying to draw one for quite some time. Had some good ideas, but seemed they would be hard to make for a one-off instrument. This seems the obvious way to go, in my opinion.

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Doug Earnest
The only Zum Keyless U12, Fender Cyber Twin

ed packard · Post by **ed packard** » 10 Jan 2005 7:31 pm

Doug, Sierra made it according to the photo and print of the one that I made for my Session series, ..same with the string terminator. Photos if you want. Just Email and ask.

Steve Alcott · Post by **Steve Alcott** » 10 Jan 2005 8:43 pm

I've played a Williams keyless for a few years and would buy another one without a second thought. When I have trouble keeping the .0115 3rd string in tune,I know it's time to change it. The only time I've broken a string at an inopportune time was when I didn't take the hint. I've recommended the Williams to a couple of players in the NYC area;I'm pretty sure they would agree with me that Bill Rudolph builds a fine instrument. I've found Bill's keyless tuner design to be accurate,stable,and easy to use. String changing is a snap;the guitar comes with an all-in-one wrench that fits the tuners on both ends as well as the string posts. My personal best is under 30 seconds in bad light.

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Williams keyless S-10,NV 400,Marrs cab<FONT SIZE=1 COLOR="#8e236b"><p align=CENTER>[This message was edited by Steve Alcott on 10 January 2005 at 08:53 PM.]</p></FONT>

Michael Johnstone · Post by **Michael Johnstone** » 11 Jan 2005 4:33 pm

Since this contentious thread has been resurrected,let me hip those of you who haven't seen it,to the new Excel keyless tuning head. It's something like the Sierra and the GFI in that you can tune it without a wrench. http://www.fuzzypsg.com/
Of course having to tune with a wrench doesn't mean much when you never have to tune the guitar. The only keyless head I didn't like and I've tried them all - was the Bela device.The one I saw used direct,ungeared steel pegs threaded into soft aluminum and was like tuning an autoharp or a piano string and seemed mechanicially unstable. I play a Keyless U-12 Excel w/8+9 and apart from all the positive aspects of any keyless guitar,it stays in tune for months,never,ever breaks any strings(I've had a 3rd string on there for around 25 gigs and it's starting to go dead)And w/a 17.5 TT pickup,has a distinctive fat singing tone that's to die for and at 38 pounds,packs up into what looks like a tenor sax case. I care not what course others may take - give me keyless or give me death! -MJ-

chas smith · Post by **chas smith** » 11 Jan 2005 6:02 pm

I'll pass on the death.... I have one of each and I prefer looking at the keyheads, from a "textural" perspective. The keyless (Kline on a Super Pro) was a major improvement, though.