Keyless Technology

Billy Poteet · Post by **Billy Poteet** » 4 Jun 2002 11:34 am

I am curious to what you guys thing of the
keyless technology. I know that its been around for a while, but most of the great pickers that I see still use keys. and I was wondering who do you think makes the best keyless guitars?

Billy Poteet

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Bob Knight · Post by **Bob Knight** » 4 Jun 2002 11:48 am

SIERRA

C Dixon · Post by **C Dixon** » 4 Jun 2002 12:02 pm

Billy,

As always, you are apt to get a myriad of opinions. I will join that fray

Having had both and played them extensively (at home) for a long time, the following is my assestments; Pro and Con:

Keyed:

1. Generally harder and takes longer to change strings.

2. Because of a longer string string length(bridge to key peg), string breakage tends to be more frequent. Too much tension.

3. The overtones from strings beyond the nut give the guitar's sound a more "WANTED" tone according to many I have talked to. And I concur. This, even though the fingers to the left of the bar are supposed to mute these sounds. Something is still there. I can't explain it. I just know it is.

4. 10 and particurly 12 string keyheads tend to be large and take up a lot of room. Thus, the guitar must be made longer; and of course heavier.

5. Since most humans tend to have a low DC factor (they Detest Change

), the key head is said to be aesthetically more appealling. Or as one player put it, "it 'jes luks better!".

6. Sustains better AFTER the 12th fret*

7. Open string tuning somewhat more convenient. (This is changing like the Sierra and GFI presently do it)

Keyless:

1. Shorter and of course lighter Guitar.

2. Changing strings often considerably faster. (Excluding the 3rd string which can be a bear)

3. Looks odd to many. ("jes don luk right!")

4. Because the total string length is much shorter, it is common to have a longer scale. IE, 25-25 and 1/2 as opposed to 24-24 to 1/4. This is supposed to give a better sound and have more sustain. (See note below)

5. The longer scales make respective pedals and knee levers stiffer than on keyed guitars. More tension is the culprit here.

6. Loses sustain faster beyond the 12th fret*

Please note the asteriks (*) in both the keyed and the keyless scenarios.

* I have been taken to task on this several times. However, I can only speak from my OWN personal experiences going from my keyed to my keyless guitars and back.

Further, because my style of playing (like JB) uses a lot of very long and many fretted sustains, from one end of the neck to the other, both my Sierra AND my Excel have simply run out of gas before the sustained phrase has finished.

This has NEVER happened on any of my keyed guitars. For those that don't play this style, this may be NO problem. And, they may have never noticed it as a result. I can assure you that this IS the case on both my keyless guitars. I can only attribute the cause to them being keyless vs keyed.

carl

David Decker · Post by **David Decker** » 4 Jun 2002 1:03 pm

Kline

George Kimery · Post by **George Kimery** » 4 Jun 2002 1:06 pm

I have a 12 string keyless Kline Universal and am very happy. I had a 68 Emmons PP before it. I don't break 3rds near as often as I did with the Emmons and I like being able to tune down to a note as well as up. Changing strings is also much faster. I personally like the keyless better. However, I sure wish I would have kept that old PP Emmons because it had a sound that I haven't been able to duplicate, but of course an Emmons can't duplicate my Kline sound either.

Richard Sinkler · Post by **Richard Sinkler** » 4 Jun 2002 1:46 pm

Another vote for Kline. But, I think all keyless mechanisms are probably very good. Wish Carter would have had a keyless guitar when I bought one.

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Carter D10 9p/10k
Richard Sinkler

Bobby Lee · Post by **Bobby Lee** » 4 Jun 2002 2:29 pm

I play a Sierra keyless and I love it!

I'm moving this topic to the 'Pedal Steel' section where it belongs.

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<img align=right src="http://b0b.com/b0b.gif" width="64" height="64">Bobby Lee - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs
Sierra Session 12 (E9), Williams 400X (Emaj9, D6), Sierra Olympic 12 (F Diatonic) Sierra Laptop 8 (D13), Fender Stringmaster (E13, A6)

Jim Eaton · Post by **Jim Eaton** » 4 Jun 2002 2:43 pm

I have an S-12 25 1/2" scale Sierra Session Keyless. It took a little while to get the hang of string changing in a hurry!!!
Works great, no problems to report.
JE:-)>

Donny Hinson · Post by **Donny Hinson** » 4 Jun 2002 4:06 pm

My problem is that most, if not all, of the keyless guitars require a wrench or screwdriver just to change strings. As long as they have that characteristic, I won't be interested in buying one. There are a number of keyless guitars on the market now, but very few pro's (the "visible" ones, anyway) play one.

Is there a good reason for that?

Damir Besic · Post by **Damir Besic** » 4 Jun 2002 4:14 pm

I never played one,just looks kind of complicated,like you said,dealing with a wrench all the time,that scares me a litle.But could be very possible that I`m wrong.
Damir

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http://hometown.aol.com/damirzanne/damirzanne1.html

Bobby Lee · Post by **Bobby Lee** » 4 Jun 2002 4:25 pm

Gee, I use a pair of wirecutters and a stringwinder to change strings on my keyed guitars. I've always used tools to change strings on anything. What's the big deal?

Pete Burak · Post by **Pete Burak** » 4 Jun 2002 5:34 pm

I think the reason the "visible" pros don't play keyless is the same reason they don't play S12U's...
People like what they were brought up on and are used too!
(from what I can see, the visible pros are playing Zum and Mullen D10's, with Joe Wright on a Sierra S12U keyless... if you concider him visible

... he's more of a blur!)

I could be happy with either setup (and have both keyed and keyless steels set up at home).

Since you asked, here are a few things I've noted about keyless...

I'm into anything that makes string changing faster and easier! (admittedly, it wasn't "what I was used to" at first, but now it is second nature).

The keyless micro tuners work great for micro tuning adjustments. I found on my keyed steel I was always using the string winding tool to get more of a "micro touch" leverage on the tuners. (That string winder trick works great for micro adjustments on keyed steels, BTW).

As far as the scale length, I've never really noticed much of a difference. If anything I've noticed that a 25" scale gives me a little more room to eyeball exactly where I'm at when up in the stratosphere (Fret 17 and beyond).
I also prefer the feel of playing on fret one (and even fret zero!) on a Keyless steel.

Keyed or Keyless, tone and sustain, pedal action, "look", ect... are all pretty "personal taste" type issues. So I would say, in general, you really have to do your own tire kicking.
I personaly don't hear or feel any drastic difference between the keyed and keyless Sierra's I've played (Keyless is a little lighter).

I think both Keyless and Keyed steels all look "extremely cool", so again, personal preferance reigns!

Damir Besic · Post by **Damir Besic** » 5 Jun 2002 4:07 am

Bobby,there is no BIG deal.I wouldn`t buy a keyless huitar simply because I`m not use to it.I didn`t say that I wont buy one if I get a chanse sometimes down the road.I`m not saying that either one is better than another.
Damir

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http://hometown.aol.com/damirzanne/damirzanne1.html

Donny Hinson · Post by **Donny Hinson** » 5 Jun 2002 5:15 am

Bobby, it's not a "big deal". But on an ordinary keyed guitar, you can make the string change without the cutters and winder, although it might be more cumbersome. But if you need a "special tool" just to make the change, you might just find yourself "up the creek" sometime down the road.

Steven Knapper · Post by **Steven Knapper** » 5 Jun 2002 5:58 am

I have seen more and more guys on like Austin City Limits playing a lot of GFI keyless. I personally have had 2 or 3 of my guitars keyless and wouldn't have anything else on stage. I agree with Mr. Dixon on some point and don't on others. All I do know is I can change a string, during a song, in about 30 seconds. EZ to tune and I don't think there is a lot of loss of sustain, at least I don't notice on my GFI's.
It's a personal preferance thing I guess, but I do believe it may be a thing of the future. All this is my opinion, but I do believe in keyless. I should also add that I don't break strings very much, maybe 2 in the last 18 months, a 10th and a 5th -- go figure.[This message was edited by Steven Knapper on 05 June 2002 at 03:10 PM.]

Roy Thomson · Post by **Roy Thomson** » 5 Jun 2002 6:40 am

I have only played two keyless guitars. Both were non-brand names.
The pedal action was the most notable difference. It was stiffer and spongy and
did not have the positive touch as found on all the keyed guitars I played and owned.
I note in Carl's post that he refers to a stiffer action on his keyless attributed to the longer scale factor. His Excell is a very "high end" guitar I understand.
A nice smooth positive pedal action facilitates acquiring that elusive special "feel" in ones playing.
I play a keyed Carter and hope they keep them that way.

Doug Seymour · Post by **Doug Seymour** » 5 Jun 2002 8:33 am

I had a GFI keyless and IMHO it is the best
keyless system I ever tried. The only easy
tuneable with your fingers....much easier than a Sierra for me.....no tools needed for tuning?? Most others I've seen do, as someone mentioned, need a wrench of some sort. You need one for tuning pedals & knees
anyway so I'm not so sure that's a valid reason?? Shorter travel on a keyless & I don't recall the action being stiffer. My Excel S10 keyless action is the best I've ever experienced. (an' thas a fact!!) When I
changed my old Zum to keyless 10 or 12 years
ago (Bobbe nearly died when I told him!)with
BELA tuners I did the E9th neck first. My 4th
string raise to F went to F# after the conversion til I re-tuned I re-set the rods.
What does that tell you?? The BELA has NO extra string length beyond the nut. In other words it's similar to the BMIs I've seen that
raise on one end & lower on the other as far as the changer end & the nut end being the end point of the open string.

Darvin Willhoite · Post by **Darvin Willhoite** » 5 Jun 2002 8:39 am

I played a keyless Williams for about 6 years, and I thought the pedal action was easier than on any of the keyed guitars I had tried. I went to a keyed Willy after that, and I couldn't tell any difference except the travel being a little longer. It was a little more trouble to tune and to change strings on the keyless, but the reduced size and weight was worth it. I wish I hadn't sold it, but that's water under the bridge.

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Darvin Willhoite
Riva Ridge Recording

Post by **b0b** » 5 Jun 2002 9:47 am

Pedal action has nothing to do with the keyhead. It's a funtion of the leverages between the changer, bell cranks, and pedals. That's also where the "direct" feel comes in.

These are not keyed vs. keyless issues. A Williams will feel like a Williams, a Sierra will feel like a Sierra. The head makes no difference in the feel of the pedals.

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<img align=left src="http://b0b.com/coolb0b2.gif" border="0"> Bobby Lee
-b0b- quasar@b0b.com 
-System Administrator

chas smith · Post by **chas smith** » 5 Jun 2002 11:18 am

From an engineering point of view, as if I was an engineer, a keyless makes more sense. I've had Kline keyless tuners on my Super Pro since about 1980 and they still don't look right to me. All my other guitars have regular tuners. So I prefer keyheads with lots of tuning keys because it looks better to me, and that's important. Everybody knows that if it looks good then it must sound good.

Richard Sinkler · Post by **Richard Sinkler** » 5 Jun 2002 11:52 am

As far as "special tools" are concerned, the Kline definately had a special tool to tune both the pedals and the strings at the keyhead. It was a plastic barrel shaped piece with the 2 different sized hex keys sticking out of each end. BUT, these were standard size hex keys and I used to carry extras just in case I lost the tool (actually, they are also the same size as needed to work on the undercarriage, so they were part of my tool kit anyway). So, this tool was no more than carrying the George L tuning wrench that I have to carry now. Changing a string only took maybe 15 seconds on the keyless. I could often change a string if it broke (only because I never changed them often enough) and have it up to pitch, stretched out and ready to go within the same song. Could never do that with a keyed guitar.

As far as sustain above the 12th fret, I never really noticed that problem when I had my Kline but it could have been. I do know that the Kline seems like it sustains forever.

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Carter D10 9p/10k
Richard Sinkler

[This message was edited by Richard Sinkler on 05 June 2002 at 12:53 PM.]

Jimmy Dale · Post by **Jimmy Dale** » 5 Jun 2002 3:22 pm

Hey Roger, Dodger on the Kline Guitar. I liked them so well, I bought two of them so I would have a back up in case something happened.However nothing ever happened so I switch from one to the other as the mood strikes me. Joe comes in every once in a while where I'm playing and I get him to come up and sit in on steel. For some reason after he gets through playing my guitar it doesn't sound the same. It takes a while to get him rubbed off of it so it'll start sounding good again. Jim I'D RATHER BE STEELIN'

ebb · Post by **ebb** » 5 Jun 2002 3:51 pm

http://steelguitarforum.com/Archives/Archive-000003/HTML/20011227-1-007350.html

KENNY KRUPNICK · Post by **KENNY KRUPNICK** » 5 Jun 2002 5:12 pm

One of my steels is a Sierra D-10 Crown "Gearless". The tone in my opinion is pretty near that of a Emmons P/P.