6 string pedal steels?

Post by **Dave Mudgett** » 4 Mar 2016 1:23 pm

... what I object to, mostly, is throwing everyone into the same basket. I feel that assuming all players have the same goals and aspirations is wrong, likewise is assuming that everyone has the same abilities and learning curve. ...

FWIW, I have explicitly not thrown everyone into the same basket, and I can't understand how anybody could think that I believe everybody is the same and should do it the same. I (and others) have made disclaimer after disclaimer on these points. I think it's smart for new players to listen to other people, but in the end make their own decisions and do what moves them.

What does concern me a bit, however, is what seems to me to be an emerging attitude on this forum that the standard 10-string E9 type of setup is

1. Too hard for most new players to grasp - and in fact so much more difficult than a comparable 6-8 string setup; I just don't think that is true if it's explained clearly;

2. Necessarily a lot more expensive; I think there are lots of great options - we never had it so good;

An aside on the "Just lemme do it my way" issue: I've been playing a lot of slide guitar the last couple of years. I've played slide since the 60s - mostly in a pretty straightforward blues-guitar manner, which IMO is cool but a bit limited in its scope. But a few revelations hit me a couple of years ago while recuperating from something or other and I had some time to think (imagine that). I use 6, 7, and 8-string guitars, various tunings, and a variety of techniques, including the Sonny Landreth approach of fretting behind the slide, which opens a helluvalot of possibilities, including lots more interesting chords and many pedal-steel-like sounds. There are a lot of ways to skin a cat - and lemme tell you, bringing a slide guitar to a gig is a helluvalot easier than dragging any pedal steel, I don't care how many strings it has on it. In fact, there are some situations where I just can't bring a pedal steel. I view slide guitar as a very close relative of the steel guitar. But I know I'll get a lot of argument about that on this forum, with people stating that you can't do this and that. In any case, I think people should do exactly what they want and view it any way they want. If you want it, do it - to blazes with the detractors.

(Good discussion, guys. I just hope I haven't made any more enemies by playing the devil's advocate on this topic.)

No worries, Donny. And isn't this better than talking about about "What's the best guitar brand?", "What's the best amp?", "Did your hear that crappy noise on TV last night on the {fill in the blank} show?", and "Why my {whatever} is so much better than your {whatever}."?

Calvin Walley · Post by **Calvin Walley** » 4 Mar 2016 1:39 pm

dave said:

1. Too hard for most new players to grasp - and in fact so much more difficult than a comparable 6-8 string setup; I just don't think that is true if it's explained clearly;

its that last sentence that gives me pause

"if its explained clearly"

on this forum you can't get what a finger pick is explained clearly let alone how to use it
and that's why i like the idea that less is more on a pedal steel

Donny said :
Good discussion, guys. I just hope I haven't made any more enemies by playing the devil's advocate on this topic

and don't worry Donny i take all the heat on the forum for just about everything

Ga McDonnell · Post by **Ga McDonnell** » 4 Mar 2016 2:09 pm

Jerry Overstreet wrote: I bought the guitar used. I was under the impression that it was a one owner at the time...
The pickup is definitely a Wilkinson branded unit. .

The guitar is definitely the one I once had. It's certainly not a "one owner". There are four owners to my knowledge and if you didn't buy it directly from me, then that would make five owners.

Re the pickup: I prefaced my comment "As I remember" since it's been awhile. I had several tele pickups on it and it's possible the one on it when I sold it was a Wilkinson. Telecaster pickups are easily mounted using two of the three screw holes provided on the guitar. (Easily seen on the photo you posted of the pickup).

Jerry Overstreet · Post by **Jerry Overstreet** » 4 Mar 2016 2:27 pm

I didn't say definitely the person I bought it from was the original owner. It's been a couple of years or so. I don't remember if he said one way or the other or if I even asked. Even stated maybe not. Or who installed the Wilkinson. I should have not said I was under that impression, rather that it was just what I was thinking for whatever reason. It's not important either way. It's mine now and a fine little guitar that I'm going to enjoy a lot.

Jeff Mead · Post by **Jeff Mead** » 4 Mar 2016 3:03 pm

Rich Upright wrote:...Because if you start on a 6, you will eventually wanna go to a 10, and trying to unlearn something is harder than trying to learn the harder thing from the beginning...

Not necessarily anything to unlearn - mine is/was tuned the same as strings 3-8 of a 10 stringer with A&B pedals and a lever to raise the Es so absolutely anything I can play/learn on the 6 string, I can play in exactly the same way on a 10 string.

Obviously, loads of extra stuff to learn but nothing to un-learn.

Ian Rae · Post by **Ian Rae** » 4 Mar 2016 3:22 pm

In the beginning Tommi Toijonen wrote:Just wondering....has anyone made six string pedal steels?

This is what happens on here if you "just wonder" - an avalanche, some of it quite heated - 6 pages in as many days! Love it

(I am totally impartial, never having shown the slightest interest in any 6-string instrument - my hobby is reading OPs.)

Dave Dube · Post by **Dave Dube** » 4 Mar 2016 3:57 pm

Tony Prior -- " I don't understand the notion of a few that think 6 strings is a better way to start." The answer Tony, is encompassed in the concepts of Present and Future value of money. You should not encumber more of your money than you need to. Future money is worth less today than present money. To add features that you don't need right now would be wasteful. Buying a D10, s10, or a 12 to start out is such a waste. That is not an opinion, it is fact.

Opinion: Until a beginner knows their way around and is able to make more informed choices, or for that matter is certain that they will stay with it, it does not make sense to put your money in a specialty item with limited appeal and low liquidity. We have all seen the "I quit" sales. One of the posts here pointed out how money was lost following your model of "start with a 10." If you've been around for awhile you have seen that play out often. That's why Tony.

As for "easier to learn on," I would only say that 3/8 string spacing was an advantage, until that became available on a 10, at which point it became moot.

"You can learn and execute the exact same beginning student exercises on both a 6 and a 10 stringer. You still have to learn what the heck the Pedal Steel is doing because the AB peds and the E levers are EXACTLY the same."

I Agree Tony,and you can do that for considerably less money on a 6.

"So now we have a very few who admit they are not experienced , maybe only one, arguing with skilled experienced players on the concept of learning. "

Well I am not sure who you are speaking of here, but let me tell you this: I have been on this Forum since about 1994-95. I came by the 6 string by way of s10's and D10's which I enjoy playing too. You seem to give place to persons over ideas. The black and white on the page is what matters. If you think that an expert cannot be wrong, let me tell you it happens somewhere every day. I have worked with enough experts in several fields to believe this is true. There have been a lot of opinions expressed by these knowledgeable players that fly in the face of the actual experiences of others, some of which have been expressed here. Which should you believe? Your own senses or some "experienced" opinion?

One of the things that gives credence to an expert is that they do not make irresponsible statements. I have seen some lulu's in this thread. Giving credence to the idea based on the status of the person who has it, is nothing but snobbery.

Tony Prior · Post by **Tony Prior** » 4 Mar 2016 4:19 pm

Dave Dube wrote:Tony Prior -- " I don't understand the notion of a few that think 6 strings is a better way to start." The answer Tony, is encompassed in the concepts of Present and Future value of money. You should not encumber more of your money than you need to. Future money is worth less today than present money. To add features that you don't need right now would be wasteful. Buying a D10, s10, or a 12 to start out is such a waste. That is not an opinion, it is fact.

One of the things that gives credence to an expert is that they do not make irresponsible statements. I have seen some lulu's in this thread. Giving credence to the idea based on the status of the person who has it, is nothing but snobbery.

Dave , I'm not claiming expert status...far from it.

My only point is and always has been that it is NOT easier to learn on 6 vs 10 which I think was stated by one or two way above. I didn't discuss economics , weight or anything other than that.

I am talking learning only...period.

Given the 6 and the 10 have the exact same musical tuning, AB pedals and two Knee levers , one is not easier or more difficult than the other for learning. Agreed, someone may view the additional two above and two below strings as unnecessary but that in itself doesn't detract from learning process of the 6 inside strings.

If someone asks me the question, is it easier to learn on a 6 stringer instead of a 10 stringer, the answer is still the same , NO, they are exactly the same given the 6 strings in question .

Now if someone asks other questions with regard to price, weight etc..

the answer is quite different and to that end you and I would be in total agreement.

Please lets not make more of my comments than that. I'm sorry if you took it that I am an expert and only my opinion matters. That was never the intent as my comments are only reflecting the learning portion of the conversation. Nothing else.

Dave Dube · Post by **Dave Dube** » 4 Mar 2016 4:20 pm

Agreed Tony. I am not embroidering on your words. They are quotes. Words have meaning. It all works out.

So you see that perhaps we can agree that economically it makes more sense to start on a 6. It's cut and dried. Unless of course someone wants to give you a 10 string at or below the cost of a 6. Don't hold your breath waiting for that eh?

But tell me do you see the point now or not?

Edit: Tony no I didn't take your meaning as being expert. I quoted your words to the effect that some upstart has the audacity to disagree with "experienced players."

"So now we have a very few who admit they are not experienced , maybe only one, arguing with skilled experienced players on the concept of learning. "
Tony Prior

Their expertise means nothing if their ideas are hogwash.

So that was not you Tony. I don't know which experienced players you were referring to.

Tony Prior · Post by **Tony Prior** » 4 Mar 2016 4:27 pm

Dave yes of course, but I was never responding to the economics portion of the conversation, just the learning portion.

You know the old saying, I only play E9th but carry both the E9th and C6th...

yes all is well...

now , I'm off to a gig, with a D10 !

Dave Dube · Post by **Dave Dube** » 4 Mar 2016 8:25 pm

b0b: hey guy, no politics here. Economics. Twice I saw the argument made that in adjusted dollars the price is low, however that is a specious argument when the income is also falling. So no I don't want to debate politics. Lol, I'd rather go downtown and argue with a drunk!

Year # of Households Nominal $ Inflation Adjusted $
1999 106,434,000 $40,201 $57,843

2014 124,587,000 $53,013 $53,657

source: http://www.davemanuel.com/median-household-income.php

Dave Dube · Post by **Dave Dube** » 4 Mar 2016 8:53 pm

Tommi Toijonen:

Tommi, Hei alkaen Hancock hullu poika?
Miten se mennÃ¤?

My town is the home of Finlandia University. We have a sister city in Suomi. International Finnfest was here a couple years ago. Learned to love sahti that winter :^)

See what you started? You must be a heretic to not want to play the 10 stringer! Actually all kidding aside, I get it. Go for it if you want to. There's a lot of music in them (fact) and wide strings make them easier to play than a standard-spaced 10 (my opinion). If you enjoy playing one then how could it be wrong?

Post by **Dave Mudgett** » 4 Mar 2016 9:20 pm

Respectfully, Dave - mean inflation-adjusted household income has been hovering around $50,000 plus or minus a few thousand for the last 40+ years, as the following chart using your link's numbers (which I believe are US Census numbers) shows. 1999 was the all-time peak - almost $58,000 - since these numbers have been kept, due to the bubble-economy of the late-90s. If anything, there's been a long-term trend up.

My point earlier was based on 1973 prices. The mean inflation-adjusted income then was right around $50,000 in current dollars. 2014 is close to $54,000. I get it that US economic trends haven't been kind to everybody. But long-term inflation-adjusted price is not a 'specious' way to think about the time-relative value of goods - it gives a pretty good picture of the overall situation.

BTW - I can imagine practical situations where it would make sense for me to go to less strings - for example, if I was doing a regular blues gig on pedal steel. But I'd be thinking more like slide-guitar-on-steroids, and would definitely go down to at least E2 (low E on guitar). The only thing is that the blues guys I know would rather have me doing slide guitar than steel, for a host of practical reasons.

admin · Post by **b0b** » 5 Mar 2016 8:33 am

This is not a place to discuss economics. Stay on topic please: "Pedal Steel".

Dave Dube · Post by **Dave Dube** » 5 Mar 2016 9:58 am

Ok Dave, I probably should not have said "specious" as that can be colored various ways. The word I should have used is "misleading."

I was aiming at the heyday of the Carter Starter not the Maverick. Your assertion that we are better off than in 1974 is probably true.

With respect to the chart, when you are running a business it is not a "go long" situation. Five year spans are much more important than 40+ years of history.

The point I was trying to make is that when the carter starters were being made they were aimed at the quartile below the median. If the highest paid household in the quartile lost $4,186 that is not negligible as it most likely comes out of discretionary spending--the rest of the quartile would be suffering in varying degrees some considerably worse. Additional factors are the boomer generation moving into retirement and presumably reduced earnings as well as the actual unemployment ( which is very controversial, which is why I did not bring it up but which must play into this, if only we could agree how.)

So I can agree to disagree. Let's talk about the PSG. That is really what I am after on this argument anyway. The 6-stringer fits three market segments. If you are not into multi-segmented marketing ok. Make "one size fits all" guitars and deal with the outcome.

The six stringer has filled the void that was created by the demise of the carter starter as an active product line. I think that is good for the future of steel guitar in general. Here is the reason why I say that.

The single generation in which steel guitar is played most is likely to be the boomers. They have a history with the music that featured it, and they are the largest generation out there. While they are still playing they are helping to spread awareness of the steel guitar. When they are gone what will be left of a market for steel guitars?

The average 17 year-old would rather spend a grand on a car than a guitar. He'll probably buy the car and get a cheap strat copy like a squire or even cheaper. If he has never played a pedal steel and knows no one who has, and if he is listening to country records with no pedal steel or with steel guitar that has been made to sound like regular guitar, why would he or his peers ever value or buy a pedal steel guitar?

The industry ought to always make affordable entry level instruments to build an installed base. The idea of making an extensible starter guitar also creates extended customer relationships, which is not a bad thing to have

In all fairness, the vendors need to make a profit and 10 strings may not allow that without some kind of magic...maybe elves? So the 6 string is a great compromise. The best attempt at a win/win you can find right now.

If a pedal steel vendor wishes to have a business to keep in the family, but does not wish to build the market, then I guess they ought to diversify. My 2 cents. YMMV. (No more econ.)

(EDIT: typing faster than my brain can go LOL.)

Calvin Walley · Post by **Calvin Walley** » 5 Mar 2016 10:16 am

another difference we haven't talked much about is the string spacing
the six strings guitars have a wider sting spacing
that i think would be easier
altho i personalty don't have any experience with the wider spacing
just seem like it would be good for some of us older player's that have a bit of arthritis

Dave Dube · Post by **Dave Dube** » 5 Mar 2016 10:44 am

I was looking for tips on c6 6-string copedents and look what I found!

A blast from the past. 2006. I call it Steel Wars: Attack of the Drones... See if you recognize any of the players. Read it through and see what you think.

http://steelguitarforum.com/Forum5/HTML/012074-2.html

Calvin Walley · Post by **Calvin Walley** » 5 Mar 2016 10:51 am

well at least i can't get blamed for that war
i don't get involved with anything C 6th ...lol

admin · Post by **b0b** » 5 Mar 2016 11:00 am

The Pedalcaster was an idea that never found funding. It was to be 2-pickup keyless 6 string with 4 pedals and 4 knees. Check it out:
https://pedalcaster.wordpress.com/

Mike Perlowin · Post by **Mike Perlowin** » 5 Mar 2016 11:50 am

I am deleting the original post that was here and am getting back on track. Calvin's subsequent comments are no longer about this post

2 minutes into this video, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WkSnoeTWR4I I played a 10 second passage on the 1st and4th strings together, while pimping the C pedal. This is just one example of using a chromatic string.

There's no way this can be played on a steel that doesn't have that F# string. I suppose one could put that string on a 6 string steel, but realistically, would anybody? And what would they eliminate in order to have it?

Dave Dube · Post by **Dave Dube** » 5 Mar 2016 12:11 pm

Calvin: No the thread is about 6 string pedal steels. Those words were in my search and up it jumped. I had forgotten all about this one. If you read it, you will see that it is not your fault. You walked into something that has been simmering for ten years.

b0b: Is a diddly-bow a pedal steel or is Mike just hijacking this thread again?

Mike: When I read that thread you cracked me up. That bit about "cousin-marrying..." LOL. That must have been some post. To your credit, you are like a fine wine. You have improved with age.

EDIT: not sister-marrying...but toothless though...LOL.

Calvin Walley · Post by **Calvin Walley** » 5 Mar 2016 12:12 pm

Mike

surely your not comparing that racket to a six string pedal steel are you ?

Dave Dube · Post by **Dave Dube** » 5 Mar 2016 12:40 pm

b0b I think the pedalcaster was ahead of its time. Maybe with kickstarter and social media...who knows?

I was looking at the C6th copedent for it. I now have a 6 string steel with 4 raises and 1 lower or 5 raises. I know precious little about C6 but now that I have a good quality 6 string E9 guitar this one is free to experiment with. I'd really like to pick your brain about that copedent sometime cause I will probably end up using some portion of it.

Calvin Walley · Post by **Calvin Walley** » 5 Mar 2016 12:47 pm

you gotta see this guy playing a Hudson six string !!!
I love how he controls his bar

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PTbhJz03_SQ

Mike Perlowin · Post by **Mike Perlowin** » 5 Mar 2016 12:58 pm

Calvin's comment about a racket was in response to something I posted, that I changed. Instead I posted my rock video. Just so everybody knows, Calvin did not call my playing a racket. He was referring to something else.

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6 string pedal steels?

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