6 string pedal steels?

[Lane Gray]

I'd say in constant dollars, the Stage One is at Starter money.
I don't think I've ever knowingly heard the Franklin pedal in action.
Without at least one of the F# strings, so much is missing that I'd suggest you can't even start down the road to what the E9th tuning can do.

[Calvin Walley]

lane you said :

"I can't speak for the experience of a stone cold beginner, for I never had that outlook."

from this statement i would say you probably shouldn't be advising the rank beginner
any more than i should be advising a professional musician

you have great advise for the intermediate player and working musician
i am reminded of a time when i would go to my instructors house
and we would be sitting at our steels face to face and he would show me how to play something
and i would work on it for a couple of minutes and then he would show me how
to do about 25 more things ,
my eyes would glaze over , my brain would completely shut down
and i would leave wondering if i had just had a steel guitar lesson
a saxophone lesson or a ukulele lesson

the man was and still is one of the best
steel guitar players i have ever heard
but he simply could not relate to my level , he talked , played and taught on an expert level
and i suspect this is what happens with you ,
you simply can not relate to the raw beginner
and thats kinda a shame because i do believe you have much to offer
and you do so freely , just not on the beginners level

[Jimmie Hudson]

We're going to have to agree to disagree on this. Personally, I would find 6 strings to be woefully inadequate and severely limiting.

Hi Mike, I have listened to your playing on your 12 string guitar. I have a Hudson 6 string with 2 floor pedals and 2 knee levers. I can play every song I have listened to you play on it note for note.
There is not a song that can not be played on 6 strings. I build the Hudson six string guitars. I can set one up for you that has 8 floor pedals and 6 knee levers and all you would have gained is several hundred dollars of your money wasted on stuff that is not needed to play any song that has ever been written.
Think of the musical scale. It is all there on the 6 string pedal steel.

[Calvin Walley]

i have no connection to Mr. Hudson or his guitars
but if you haven't looked at them you need to go to his website
his guitars are gorgeous, very well built and sound amazing

[Dave Dube]

Lane constant dollars would be fine if we had a constant economy. You might have been insulated from 2008. A lot of people make less now than they did in 1992.

[b0b]

remember - no politics on the forum!

[Tony Prior]

I guess as a player and a teacher I don't understand the notion of a few that think 6 strings is a better way to start. Thats like sating my car has a 5 speed tranny but I am only going to use 3 gears for the first year or so until I learn how they work.

IF someone wants a 6 stringer because it fits a purpose great, grab one. But don't parade that it is easier to learn on, that is patently false and bad information. It's the exact same tuning as the inside 6 of a 10 string tuning.

You can learn and execute the exact same beginning student exercises on both a 6 and a 10 stringer. You still have to learn what the heck the Pedal Steel is doing because the AB peds and the E levers are EXACTLY the same.

It is mentioned above that Lane should not be offering advice to beginners..what ? Did I read that right ? Are you kidding me ?

So instead it's better to take advice from someone who doesn't know anything about the Instrument or tuning with no vision past two pedals and a knee lever ?

Run for the hills...

This is not a topic about Jimmy's quality instruments,they are indeed high quality, don't make it about that.

So now we have a very few who admit they are not experienced , maybe only one, arguing with skilled experienced players on the concept of learning.

So heres a truth.

Decades back when I purchased the 10 string Maverick without ever touching a Pedal Steel guitar previously, I bought a Sho Bud record which showed me how to tune it and explained a few different things, like the AB pedals in and out. I didn't even have a knee lever. I began playing a few things on the inside 6 strings.

Then maybe a few weeks later my friend Dr Marty Friedman came over with his Emmons. I showed him what I knew, he said..kool, now add this..which was a simple 1 and 2 string phrase added to what I was already playing..changed my Pedal Steel life...then he said let me show you what this 2nd string lever does...YIPES, I ordered one the next day. My Pedal Steel life changed TWICE in the same day.

Lets talk bout string grips..the most common string grips which allow for different triads to be played at will. These are basic and mandatory especially for an entry level player.

10,8,6.....8,6,5...6,5,4....5,4,3...

true , you do not need that bottom 10th string grip but without it you are missing an all important lower triad in your learning journey.

To re-state, just so I am clear, my comments are not about the quality or availability of any 6 string Steel, if they fit a purpose, grab one. They are specifically directed to the notion , presented by a few, that you can learn better on a 6 string vs a 10 string. Thats blatantly false.

Beginners,bring your 10 string Steel to my teaching studio, I will give you a FREE lesson on how to add those 4 so called extra strings into you Pedal Steel life. You will leave with an understanding of their basic use in a very simplistic form, and it will only take a very short time. In 30 minutes or so, you will graduate to using 10 strings instead of arguing about it.

[Charlie McDonald]

Would the lesson be half-price if I came in with my six-string?
Seriously, that was a good summation, Tony.

So instead it's better to take advice from someone who doesn't know anything about the Instrument or tuning with no vision past two pedals and a knee lever ?

Yeah; send them to me.

With a shortage of teachers, I can envision masses of guitarists going after the easy fix, to decide quickly that they want more,
and that's what a six-string could be good for. Those that don't go after the full monte and play it on a few tunes on a stage
will increase interest in the instrument. In the meantime, those of us who're old and have grown tired of tuning can have fun at home.
Six-string pedal steel, a win-win for everyone!

[Donny Hinson]

I guess as a player and a teacher I don't understand the notion of a few that think 6 strings is a better way to start. Thats like sating my car has a 5 speed tranny but I am only going to use 3 gears for the first year or so until I learn how they work.

IF someone wants a 6 stringer because it fits a purpose great, grab one. But don't parade that it is easier to learn on, that is patently false and bad information. It's the exact same tuning as the inside 6 of a 10 string tuning.

Tony, I respect your talent and ability. I also understand and appreciate your frustration, but I think that some of what you are saying is patently false, and I'll tell you why.

When we begin to learn in school, they don't hand us a college level book and tell us to "only read or use the simple stuff". No, they give us something simple and easy to start with. That's why we start children reading easy books instead of encyclopedias. That's why we start learning math with one and two digit numbers, and not with five digit numbers. And that's also why we learn a new language by starting off with simple words and phrases. You mentioned transmissions in a car? Do you honestly think it's just as easy to learn to shift with many more gears? Are you saying it's just as easy to learn to drive a 16-speed truck as it is to learn to drive a 3-speed Chevy??? Well, that's ludicrous, because common sense tells us that simple things are easier to learn than complex things. When we teach someone, standard practice is to not put more in front of them than they need or can comprehend. Putting too much on a student's plate at one time can lead to panic, confusion, or frustration. It's why we go from one book to another, and from one grade to another, from something simple to something more complex. It's why an elementary school library has different (read: easier) books than a college library.

Look, I don't think anyone here is saying that a 6 or 8 stringer is "better" to learn on than a 10 or 12, but it's sure as hell easier for some people to comprehend and play. And if you can't understand that, then you may be the world's greatest teacher, but you don't know much about learning.

[Ga McDonnell]

. This one has a Wilkinson tele type pickup. It sounds good and plays nicely. I love the little guitar ..... .

This looks like the Cougar I had. As I remember that's a Fender Texas Special neck pickup on there. Freeman C made a custom 6 string 6 pole pickup that came on that guitar. I still have it somewhere.

In a six string psg the Cougar and Lone Star came with 3 pedals/4 knees and most likely haven't been improved on with the brands that came later.

[Charlie McDonald]

I think that may be true, Ga. Certainly, with the number of strings, a six-string is maxxed out with 3x4.
Space underneath also becomes an issue, a further limiting factor that is a parameter in design solution.

You want to trade that Cowger pickup away? Be cool in my Lonestar.

And don't hold back, Donny.

[Tommi Toijonen]

To be clear, I'm not considering a 6 stringer as a stepping stone up to 10 stringer. I'm considering it as a stepping down stone from 10 stringer. I think I could have a better use of a 6 stringer in live situations.

I'm not getting rid of my 10 stringer either - it seems I'm convincing myself in getting a one more guitar (guess you're familiar with that - gear lust).

Now, one more half full/half empty analogy. Assume I have a six string lapsteel. I'd like to have legs on it: it would be a 6 string console, wouldn't it? Maybe I would like to have some pedals and levers in it. Wouldn't I be getting more possibilities to express myself with it? What if I were almost happy with the lapsteel and needed just that little extra step?

Answers would be "yes", "yes" and ... well... "if that's the case then it is"

Sadly, we don't have too many pedal steel builders here in the old world. Or not too many players either. It would be good to test different options, configurations and brands. I haven't even tried other steels than my Carter Starter. Being familiar with its copedent, I think I'd like to have 6/3/4 configuration like I figured out in my opening post.

[Lane Gray]

WBS in Switzerland sells a six stringer.
And absolutely, I think it's a cool idea, Tommi

[Jerry Overstreet]

Ga, as I stated earlier, I bought the guitar used. I was under the impression that it was a one owner at the time, but maybe not.

The pickup is definitely a Wilkinson branded unit. The print is still partly visible. I don't see any mods to the mounting, but it may have been the one you had....I don't know.

Anyway, I'd be interested in that pole piece pickup you have for it if you consider letting it go. JO.

[Tony Prior]

When we begin to learn in school, they don't hand us a college level book and tell us to "only read or use the simple stuff".

I don't disagree, in fact I do agree..

but in this scenario, it just so happens that strings 3 thru 8 on the 10 stringer are identical to strings 3 thru 8 and the two peds and K levers on the 6 stringer...

My ONLY point is whatever you can learn on a 6 string is exactly the same on a 10 string WITHOUT ever touching the other 4.

regarding the college book scenario, it would be like the two first chapters of the simple book are the exact same chapters in the advanced book. Don't read chapters 3 thru 10 ! Stop at 2 !

[Dave Mudgett]

Donny, I'm gonna partly agree and partly disagree with you. Sure, you don't put start someone learning to drive for the first time into a 16-gear semi-truck, nor someone learning to fly for the first time into an F-16 fighter. But I think there are some important differences between those comparisons and the comparison between a 6/8-string pedal steel and a 10-string pedal steel:

1. You can easily kill yourself and others if you mess up while actually operating a car or airplane. The worst you can do with a pedal steel is play wrong notes. You can obviate training-danger issues using simulators, and in fact simulators are used a lot in learning complex tasks - the technology has advanced amazingly in the last few decades. In fact, many believe that kids playing computer and/or video simulation games with heavy complexity sharpens certain motor skills and makes it easier to learn some types of complex tasks. And in fact, kids flock to simulation types of games and do amazingly well with them.

2. I don't think the level of complexity difference between a 6/8-string vs. 10-string pedal steel is anywhere near as large as for the truck vs. car or F-16 vs. trainer examples. What's different? Comparing the 6-string E F# G# B E G# Dave Dube outlined earlier to a standard 10-string E9 setup, the differences are

1. The top two re-entrant strings are missing;

2. The bottom two strings are missing;

3. Some of the standard E9 pedals and levers may be missing;

I argue that having that extra stuff on there should not be all that confusing. Why?

1. The top two re-entrant strings can be completely ignored at first; most beginners do just that.

2. The bottom two can also be ignored at first; most begineers do just that.

3. Everything but the A and B pedals can be ignored at first; again, most beginners do just that.

4. In Dave's setup, the F# between the low E and G# is present. So with either his setup or standard 10-string E9, you need to learn to skip that F# string for root-based chords.

In other words, the 6-string setup Dave describes is absolutely intact and contiguous on strings 3-8 of a standard 10-string E9 3+4 guitar. I just don't see where there's any confusion if it's explained correctly. Stick to the middle-6 strings and the A+B pedals - and then these two setups are completely isomorphic (which means they are the same except for a relabeling of the strings).

I should also point out that child learners are different than adult learners. Their brains are not fully developed, and some things that would be unreasonable to expect out of a child are very much in-scope for an adult. But beyond that:

1. Kids learning math and reading do learn all 10 digits and all 26 alphabet letters early-on. What they DO with them builds up slowly with time. I see this as directly analogous to starting out with a 10-string pedal steel: you have all 10 strings and all pedals and levers, but what you DO with them builds up slowly over time.

2. I teach math and computer system development (programming, design, engineering, etc.), and have taught several technical disciplines over the years. There is significant disagreement there over how to start students out in technical disciplines. Some argue that it's better to heavily simplify early courses in things like computer programming and math to avoid confusing people. I personally disagree with that - instead, I think it's better to present the basics fully, but be prepared to really explain it carefully, slowly, and in detail so people don't get confused. IMO, the danger of starting out over-simplified is that:

1. Students may get the idea that it's easy and not understand that a certain level of intensity is required;

2. Some of those more complex details are really essential points and it's better to start on them early and repeat them often in successive courses so understanding builds up over time.

3. Students often have the tendency to get complacent once they achieve a certain minimal understanding of things. If you aim low, you often hit low.

I think a lot of problems kids have in technical disciplines is that they get too much of a free pass - the educational system can't tolerate the pushback when they complain things are too tough. Everything is supposed to be "easy" - "the web makes everything easy, right?". I think some of this is relevant to learning PSG.

But again, I realize that everybody comes into the steel guitar world for different reasons and with different goals. So I agree that people should start out however they want. But I just don't think a 10-string pedal steel should be so much more complex or terrifying than a 6-string version if it's approached with the kind of understanding and instruction I discussed above.

On cost - yes, I get it that some people have limited funds for an instrument. And just in case it was not clear - I was emphatically not even remotely dismissing Jimmie Hudson's guitars - quite to the contrary. I have looked at his website several times, and may get one myself at some point. I like his whole vibe - reasonably priced pedal steels with interesting non-standard options made out of really nice wood. He builds 6-stringers for around $600-800, 8-stringers for $800-1200 (the latter with 3+4), and a wide-spacing (3/8") 10-stringer with 3+4 for $1200. Yes, that's right, folks - the ST-10 W 3+4 10-stringer is the same price as the ST-8 3+4. That's what it says when I just looked at it now. So in terms of getting an 8-string 3+4 versus a 10-string 3+4, money is not the issue. You pays your money, takes your choice for $1200 - bada bing, bada boom.

[Bill Moore]

Great post Dave, I was typing (slowly!) as you posted, but I guess I will add my 2 cents anyway!

I think there's a viable market for 6 string pedal steels, as an alternative to over priced Mavericks and similar guitars. As for what guitar a beginner should start with, I don't think that's the most important thing; what's important is that he actually STARTS.

A 6 string PSG with 3 pedals and 3 or 4 levers is a better choice than a Maverick, in my opinion. And it's probably cheaper than most Mavericks in today's market. Most players will go through several guitars over the years, if they stick with it. And if they don't stick with it, it really doesn't matter much, does it? Seems like some guys that have been playing for 30-40 years forget what it felt like when they began learning. If a beginner can afford a pro guitar, in good condition, that's great. But it's nice that there are alternatives for someone that can't afford one or isn't sure he will stick with it.

[Calvin Walley]

We're going to have to agree to disagree on this. Personally, I would find 6 strings to be woefully inadequate and severely limiting.

Hi Mike, I have listened to your playing on your 12 string guitar. I have a Hudson 6 string with 2 floor pedals and 2 knee levers. I can play every song I have listened to you play on it note for note.
There is not a song that can not be played on 6 strings. I build the Hudson six string guitars. I can set one up for you that has 8 floor pedals and 6 knee levers and all you would have gained is several hundred dollars of your money wasted on stuff that is not needed to play any song that has ever been written.
Think of the musical scale. It is all there on the 6 string pedal steel.

just thought this bears repeating

[Jeff Mead]

When I got my 6 shooter (pretty much an impulse buy as I spotted it, used, on Ebay), I didn't intend it to be a stepping stone to 10 strings or something to learn on - I considered myself to be primarily a non-pedal guy who had stuck my toes in the PSG waters a couple of times and thought it would be cool to be able to make a few pedal steel noises with something that wasn't that much bigger than a 6 string lap.

That was definitely what gave me the bug to get a 10 stringer though - I definitely wouldn't have considered one at the time that I got the 6 shooter.

As I said though - even now I have my Sho~Bud, I still find little niches where the 6 shooter is the way to go, much in the same way that my 6 string lap still gets a lot of use even though I now have a Stringmaster quad.

I think I still consider myself to be first and foremost a non-pedal guy but I am now totally fascinated by the world of pedals and the 6 shooter is definitely part of the reason.

[Lane Gray]

We're going to have to agree to disagree on this. Personally, I would find 6 strings to be woefully inadequate and severely limiting.

Hi Mike, I have listened to your playing on your 12 string guitar. I have a Hudson 6 string with 2 floor pedals and 2 knee levers. I can play every song I have listened to you play on it note for note.
There is not a song that can not be played on 6 strings. I build the Hudson six string guitars. I can set one up for you that has 8 floor pedals and 6 knee levers and all you would have gained is several hundred dollars of your money wasted on stuff that is not needed to play any song that has ever been written.
Think of the musical scale. It is all there on the 6 string pedal steel.

just thought this bears repeating

But it's not right. Mike DOES use the low strings

[b0b]

I'm a big fan of 6-string copedents. I'm very disappointed that none of the major builders offer pro-level guitars with wider string spacing and less than 10 strings. There's a big market of boomer-age electric guitarists (with $ to spend) who just can't get into closely spaced strings and complicated tunings. They never go beyond lap steel because the transition is too difficult - and it's not the pedals that scare them off. They want pedals, they want pro quality, but they don't want a complex tuning system that takes 5 years to learn.

[Fish]

I've never played a 6-string pedal steel - in fact I've never even seen one up close.

But I get it.

For guitar players who are curious about the pedal steel and want a bridge instrument that won't require a huge financial investment, this seems like a direction to investigate and perhaps even pursue.

I started on Dobro and lap steel then moved to a Sho~Bud Maverick after about two years. The move to 10 strings from six was a difficult one, but I stuck it out. But if there had been a 6-string alternative to the Maverick back in 1972, I might have gone in that direction for a year or two first.

As someone who never stopped playing lap steel, it would now be fun to have a simpler - and much lighter - pedal steel that could accommodate the wide variety of six pole guitar pickups on the market.

I still love my Zumsteel double neck I bought new from Bruce Zumsteg in 1981 (thank you Bruce!). I use a Fender 400 eight stringer from time to time, and now I am intrigued by this six string pedal steel idea.

[Alan Brookes]

...Kids learning math and reading do learn all 10 digits and all 26 alphabet letters early-on. What they DO with them builds up slowly with time. I see this as directly analogous to starting out with a 10-string pedal steel: you have all 10 strings and all pedals and levers, but what you DO with them builds up slowly over time...

I never heard it put like that before, but you're absolutely right. It's a bit like learning to type on a typewriter with only lower case letters. Years ago there was a fad for teaching kids to write phoenetically. It made no sense because they would then have to learn to read and write all over again.

...I'm very disappointed that none of the major builders offer pro-level guitars with wider string spacing and fewer than 10 strings. There's a big market of boomer-age electric guitarists (with $ to spend) who just can't get into closely spaced strings and complicated tunings. They never go beyond lap steel because the transition is too difficult - and it's not the pedals that scare them off. They want pedals, they want pro quality, but they don't want a complex tuning system that takes 5 years to learn.

Absolutely. I have big hands and I find myself playing non-pedal or Dobro most of the time because I don't like the narrow string spacing of modern pedal steels. Buddy Emmons told on the Forum how he came up with the narrower string spacing originally for economic reasons, as they already had a stock of 8-string necks and decided to use them for 10-strings. Now the narrower necks have become standard. When I pull out one of my old MultiKords, the pedal position might be more awkward, but the string spacing is far more comfortable. By the way, if you want to play around with 6-string copedants, 6-string MultiKords are fairly cheap to experiment with.

[Donny Hinson]

While I think that both Dave and Fish make good points, what I object to, mostly, is throwing everyone into the same basket. I feel that assuming all players have the same goals and aspirations is wrong, likewise is assuming that everyone has the same abilities and learning curve. While even I might not recommend a 6 or 8 stringer for everyone, I can certainly understand why it might appeal to some players. Telling everyone that they have to follow some preconceived "absolute minimum" can sometimes be detrimental, and I do believe we've probably lost some potential players and members because of that attitude. My philisophy is to play what you like, make music, and have some fun. There's nothing wrong with starting small, and trading up to something with more complexity and capability later on. We're not all doing this as a lifetime occupation, and those that aspire to do more will do it, believe me!

(Good discussion, guys. I just hope I haven't made any more enemies by playing the devil's advocate on this topic.)

[Rich Upright]

I feel it is best to start out right from the beginning, on a 10 string guitar. Because if you start on a 6, you will eventually wanna go to a 10, and trying to unlearn something is harder than trying to learn the harder thing from the beginning. Plus, I think the reason people wanna try a 6 string is that they are equating it to their regular guitar playing.