6 string pedal steels?

Calvin Walley · Post by **Calvin Walley** » 2 Mar 2016 2:13 pm

Charlie McDonald wrote:Well, I think I begin to get Calvin's thinking, including the polls, with a focus on whatever would make it easier for folks to get guitar.
I think it's a germane issue, as it's something that would likely go beyond six-string PSGs. Just my guess what guitarists would want to do.

Charlie
you got it !!!

i WANT to get new people guys and gals playing
and by selling them on equipment thats out of their reach
or trying to make them think that if they get a 10 or 12 string with X number of pedals and knees
they can play what they hear
it just aint so !!!!
they end up frustrated and confused , the guitar goes in a closet
and we just lost a new player !!!
its just that damn simple

get these folks playing something ..ANYTHING

keep our instructions on their lever and encourage them to master the fundamentals UNTIL
they are ready to advance and then you will see a lot more new and even better players
not to mention a lot less frustration .
most that come to the pedal steel are adults and can handle the simple truth
that they NEED to start on something simple and work up as they progress
at their own speed NOT someone else's speed

Lane

did you just say that you out grew a 3 x 1 in only a couple of weeks ?
i've been around steels and steel players north of 20 years and i have NEVER even once
heard of anyone that could even come close to that !!!!

chris ivey · Post by **chris ivey** » 2 Mar 2016 2:42 pm

i guess my question is, 'why does anyone care if others learn to play steel or not?'
i like to play it, but it doesn't bother me if no one else wants to.
now if you sold steel guitar items i could see wanting more customers maybe.
but that's not the case here , is it?

Calvin Walley · Post by **Calvin Walley** » 2 Mar 2016 3:18 pm

Chris

I care !!!
i think a lot of people want to play music even if its only for their own enjoyment

that kind of thinking shut's the door on the gift of music to people that otherwise
might find a life time of pleasure from playing in their own home at their own level
i have heard it said far to many times on this very forum that "the pedal steel isn't for everyone "

WHAT A CROCK OF BS !!!

it IS for anyone that wants to play it ,
its not up to you , me or anyone else to discourage anyone from playing
on whatever level they are comfortable playing
the pedal steel can be enjoyed
on any level from beginner to expert
but how many times do we see egos dominate a simple question
asked by a rank beginner ..all that does is frustrate and discourage
many new players trying very hard to make sense of this thing we all love

Lane Gray · Post by **Lane Gray** » 2 Mar 2016 3:50 pm

Yes. As soon as I could handle one, I wanted the full 4.
Was I very competent? No, but I wanted to learn the whole thing, and I wasn't willing to accept "your guitar can't do this."

Calvin Walley · Post by **Calvin Walley** » 2 Mar 2016 4:11 pm

Yes. As soon as I could handle one,

this i do believe ,

the 2 week part... mmmmm not so much

Dave Dube · Post by **Dave Dube** » 2 Mar 2016 5:04 pm

Dave, if you were suggesting to order a wide spaced 10 string, then I can't imagine why you would think a 6 string with E9th is a false economy for a beginner. There is no detriment to playing at all. Everything on the guitar will transfer.

"As far as the distinction between guitar and steel prices..." There you go again. You arbitrarily spend several times more than a beginner might or ought to spend. It helps your argument though. I know a young guy who got a blem dirty thirties and he is cutting it up playing bluegrass flatpick stuff. He payed $120. He will be able to justify paying for a Larivee or Martin or such, when he decides to. Another thing about that: he is not wasting time waiting to afford that quality guitar. He is playing now and learning. Time is worth something, but you are not considering that.

You guys want to put your arm into a guy's pocket clean up to the elbow, LOL. It's stupid for a beginner to get the full monty. I have seen many "I quit" sales. Better to keep their money and only pay what they need to get started. With a low entry price, if they take a little loss when they liquidate it--either moving up or just moving on--they can chalk it up to a rental cost and they are not out much.

Now as far as I can tell from what you say the big loss is strings 1 and 2, with the unison licks and Chuck Berry vamping.

OK, well so what can a beginner get out of a 6-string:

1 Bar control
2 Getting accustomed to picks
3 Volume pedal technique
4 Learning nuances about where the string is picked and the effect on tone
5 harmonics
6 Familiarization with the tuning
7 scales-single note and harmonic
8 chords including 6th and 9th chords, and (with an f lever) Augmented and Diminished chords
9 pedal rocking
10 Some of the grips
11 Learn to "hear" the sound of the guitar. Recognize pedals when you hear them played.
12 Speed picking technique and some simple patterns
13 pick blocking
14 palm blocking
15 dealing with sound and many facets of amplification and tone control
16 vibrato
17 How to combine volume pedal and vibrato to make it cry...

Ok this is getting boring. You get my drift yet? You gave me three examples of "what makes a pedal steel a pedal steel" that I am missing out on with a 6. I gave you 17 reasons why the 6 is most of the pedal steel experience and is an ideal trainer and not a false economy. After mastering some, or all of these techniques beginners will know for themselves if they are ready to upgrade. If anyone really can learn all of this from scratch in two weeks...well my hat is off to him or her.

The beginner can go over to the tab page and play "A-11" right now on a 6 and feel good doing it. There are plenty more like that. They can learn to improvise using what they have. Improvising is the art of playing. Copying licks is necessary but is also a bit soul-less. Every time you come up to changes that you don't have, it's an opportunity to improvise. Find something tasteful to do and don't stress over not having the change. Don't think that won't happen when you have a 10-string either, because it will.

Way back in the day the starter was a Maverick. Many people on this forum groused it was no good and recommended to buy a pro model. There was a guy down ohio way who used to help people with those crappy Mavericks and make "frankenbuds" for them that got them more changes on the cheap. The poor guy did a lot of good for folks, but he was the target for derision on this forum. Then the Carter starter came out and at first everybody was ok with it but eventually it was ridiculed as being flimsy and other more expensive brands were recommended. Now the cheap entry is a six string and they are called "a tricked out lap steel" and we are being told we should get something else--AGAIN. That is dismissive, say what you want. It is what it is.

I have read your posts in the past and you are a knowledgeable and generally all-around decent guy-- from my take anyway--so I'm pretty sure you don't mean to be dismissive, but look at the way things go around here and you may understand why some of us just don't care about putting beginners on a full PSG and won't accept your recommendation. If you are going to bring that to a discussion on 6-string PSG you are going to get resistance. That's how it is.

Dave Dube · Post by **Dave Dube** » 2 Mar 2016 5:17 pm

Lane Gray -- You say the kid with the 6 stringer should have a 10/3/4 so he isn't disappointed that he won't be able to play the Franklin stuff.

UM...Lane you KNOW that the Franklin pedal isn't part of the standard setup. You won't get that on a stage one either.

If I'm not mistaken, he has vertical levers too, doesn't he?

So now you sold him a 10 stringer that cost considerably more and he still can't play what he heard!

Apparently you didn't read thisin an earlier post so let me reprise it for you:

"Finally, after having ShoBud and MSA D10's several GFI's and a bunch of ShoBud Mavericks and Pros over the years, I can tell you that having 3x4 or 2 necks still won't guarantee that you can play like the pros. Even if you have the skills you might not have the copedent. So you will have to adapt anyway. They say Curly Chalker had some "secret" change he didn't share. Pete Drake was also known for changing his copedent for certain recordings. A lot of players do that still. The "standard" 3x4 doesn't have a Franklin pedal or an x lever. So there you go. You are $2000 into a guitar and still can't play what you hear because something is missing!

At some point you have to decide to quit chasing changes and just interpret a song the best way you know how. Might as well start out that way."

Post by **Dave Mudgett** » 2 Mar 2016 6:17 pm

... but look at the way things go around here and you may understand why some of us just don't care about putting beginners on a full PSG and won't accept your recommendation ...

Methinks thou dost protest too much.

Seriously, I don't expect anybody to accept any recommendation at face value - not mine, not yours, not Mike's, Lane's, nor anybody else's. It's essential to critically think through this kind of stuff in the context of one's own goals. My concern with a rush to small number of strings is that some people may kid themselves into thinking that's gonna do things it doesn't. If someone thinks all this stuff through, considering both sides of it, they probably will not go too far wrong.

In fact, get you a diddley bow if you want. Here's a guy who can really do it with one string: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JPOMYHKWGTE

But I think he's better with more strings: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-x4n6L4yh7M

Yes, that's John Paul Jones from Led Zeppelin playing bass.

Derrick Unger · Post by **Derrick Unger** » 2 Mar 2016 6:58 pm

Calvin Walley..2 more Sixer's are made by Jackson steel guitars and Bob Overfelt who also puts his onEBay for sale..I just got one of his guitars last night from a fellow forum member..played for 10 minutes and already know I'm going to love it..I'd rather have less and stay enthused and move up if I feel it than overwhelmed with more and quit..I plan on posting a review of this guitar in a week or two and maybe a video.

Dave Dube · Post by **Dave Dube** » 2 Mar 2016 7:06 pm

Mike Perlowin--

So mike you have a 12. Did you always play a 12? What was your first guitar? I bet it wasn't a 12.

Anyway at some point you decided to play a 12. You also then decided to modify the standard copedent to fit your desires. Did you do that right away or decide to do it later?

To me, knowing you've had a long career and a lot of time on a packaseat, you have had to go through plenty of changes--evolution of a sort. It's natural. You are a long way from where you were on that first day you decided to play no matter how you want to slice it.

I expect every player that stays with it will be similar in that respect.

You say that we need to have a full PSG to play country. You give reasons: "Again, I say that the D* and F# strings and the chromatic strings allow the player to do stings that cannot be done without them. "

Yep that is true. We do some things to get by and let the others go. Just like trying to play Paul Franklin on a 3x3. You make do and improvise. If I had a standard 12 string and all the skill in the world I still wouldn't be able to do what you do when you use your personal modified changes, so I would have to do something else.

As I said in my first post, I use an F# string (7) and wouldn't be without it. I said that I like to have the D string also. I have had a D string on the bottom and a change moving to E that I can also half-pedal, and that these days I tune to E (8) but sometimes I tune down to get the D if I will need it for a song. So really you are preaching to the choir in one respect.

I don't have the chromatic strings. I get F# (1) and Ed (2) on changes. In the music that I typically play I have observed over the years that the F# is most often used in cascades that lead to E (4) on the next note anyway. That translates easily to my pedal. I know I can't do the rolls on the chromatic strings, so I do something else. Compromised just like when I didn't have a Franklin pedal and had to do something else.

One thing I miss is playing up an octave on the bass strings. The timbre... But so what. Life is full of compromise and success often depends on it.

Now I would never suggest using a cheap six string for full-on professional country music. The gig ought to pay enough to keep up the equipment. In this neck of the woods the music scene dried up years ago. There are a couple of bands that's it. A few places book duets or soloists. No steel or fiddle to be seen. (I've heard there's 1 or 2 PSG players but I haven't found them yet.) When they have the regional country band contest there isn't much to see for a steel player. The winners always look like a grunge band and for that matter they play real nice covers of music that sounds more rock than country. So I guess I almost need to ask "What country?" LOL

When I play it is typically with a guitar or two and a bass. That leaves the high register to me and the role of providing some "depth." I do not miss the bass notes because that is not the role I have to do. I can hit enough kickoffs and solos using enough of the signature hooks to get by and I can fake when I need to. I'll never get a grammy but I am playing country music. I don't "need" those strings to do this. Of course if you want to give me a nice wide spacing 10 stringer, I won't turn you down. :^) See, need and want are two different things :^)

I was just listening to some old Buck Owens. Brumley's tone, well Rich's too, the whole thing sounds like a swarm of mosquitoes but it sure is nice. If Tom was playing bass notes they were so rolled off as to be inaudible LOL. That's country. I play some Turnpike Troubadors. Nice alternative country. More steel and fiddle than most Nashville stuff. Nice accessible PSG with nice round pedal pulls. God Bless Tulsa.

So I don't know. If you are talking about pro playing, well of course you need a pro setup. If you are just learning or are fooling around in a small combo, why not? It has been done and will continue being done anyway. In another post I listed 17 things that you can learn on a 6 string that directly transfer to 10 string. I stand by my contention that an extensible 6 string is the best starter PSG available today. YMMV.

Dave Dube · Post by **Dave Dube** » 2 Mar 2016 7:08 pm

Dave Mudgett-- Alas poor Yurock...he broke a string.

Calvin Walley · Post by **Calvin Walley** » 2 Mar 2016 7:18 pm

Derrick
i saw a guy selling six string pedal steel's
on e-bay that had long horn logos on it
is that the Bob Overfelt that your talking about ?

they were pretty nice looking guitars

Lane says he out grew his 3 x1 in just a couple of weeks
hell for the 1st 3 years i kept both my right knee levers folded up....
guess i wasn't a pedal steel prodigy like Lane was...ooooh well LOL

chris ivey · Post by **chris ivey** » 2 Mar 2016 7:20 pm

Calvin Walley wrote:Chris
that kind of thinking shut's the door on the gift of music to people that otherwise
might find a life time of pleasure from playing in their own home at their own level
i have heard it said far to many times on this very forum that "the pedal steel isn't for everyone "

WHAT A CROCK OF BS !!!

it IS for anyone that wants to play it ,
its not up to you , me or anyone else to discourage anyone from playing
on whatever level they are comfortable playing
the pedal steel can be enjoyed
on any level from beginner to expert
but how many times do we see egos dominate a simple question
asked by a rank beginner ..all that does is frustrate and discourage
many new players trying very hard to make sense of this thing we all love

what kind of thinking? i said i don't care what anyone else does. and i'm not going to tell anyone that they 'need' to do anything. where are you getting that i'm 'discouraging' anyone? people can do whatever they want on whatever level they're comfortable with. you seem to be placing alot of unwarranted animosity towards me. read what i said!

and i'll venture a guess that in 40 years of this i have encouraged and willingly helped many more beginning players along (expecting nothing in return, i might add) than most people. so i reject your 'crock of bs' insinuation!

Calvin Walley · Post by **Calvin Walley** » 2 Mar 2016 7:39 pm

Chris

i guess my question is, 'why does anyone care if others learn to play steel or not?'

the way i read this sentence gave me the impression that your thinking was along the lines of

i've got mine and i don't care if other's learn or not

if i misinterpreted it, I totally apologize

Lane Gray · Post by **Lane Gray** » 2 Mar 2016 8:17 pm

Calvin, I didn't say I outgrew just one.
I said as soon as I could handle one, the rest made sense and were wanted.
And two weeks after I'd gotten the use of the Emmons, the LDG became available.

Lane Gray · Post by **Lane Gray** » 2 Mar 2016 9:14 pm

Dave Dube wrote:Lane Gray -- You say the kid with the 6 stringer should have a 10/3/4 so he isn't disappointed that he won't be able to play the Franklin stuff.

UM...Lane you KNOW that the Franklin pedal isn't part of the standard setup. You won't get that on a stage one either.

You can play 90 percent of what you hear with 3 and 4, you don't even need the 1st and 2nd string raise, since a fingerpull gets that lick. And my steel teacher taught me the workaround for the lack of the X lever.

Calvin Walley · Post by **Calvin Walley** » 2 Mar 2016 9:56 pm

but once again Lane
your trying to tell a raw new student how to play something beyond his skill level
before they are anywhere near ready.... and until they are ready
a 6 string 2 X 2 will serve them well for quite some time

Lane, I'm going to say this as simple as it can be said:

what the hell good are 10 strings until the student learns how to make music on six

a student can have all the strings and pedals and levers in heaven ,
but until that person masters the fundamentals all he/she will have is a $ 2000.00 piece of furniture

with a lot of hard work they hopefully will someday be ready for 10 string 3 x 4 or even a 10 string 4 X 5
but not yet !!!

Tommi Toijonen · Post by **Tommi Toijonen** » 3 Mar 2016 4:42 am

This may sound provocative, but I think I might consider taking a six stringer to a gig for a couple of songs. (I'm mainly a guitarist in my band.)

I haven't done that with a 10 stringer, because of the need to concentrate and the hasle is too much for me. In studio situation I'm quite happy with the 10 strings.

Charlie McDonald · Post by **Charlie McDonald** » 3 Mar 2016 5:10 am

It is provocative, to think of taking an abbreviated guitar on stage with less set-up time, to play pedal steel licks and comp with guitars.
The more I hear against it, the more the six-string appeals to me, and I'm glad I got one.

Yes, Cal, the Overfelt guitars are the ones with the Longhorn.

Pedal steel isn't for everyone, neither is piano.
One does have to go through a learning curve on it; really no way to reduce that for someone.

Jeff Mead · Post by **Jeff Mead** » 3 Mar 2016 5:53 am

Tommi Toijonen wrote:This may sound provocative, but I think I might consider taking a six stringer to a gig for a couple of songs. (I'm mainly a guitarist in my band.)

Tommi,

I've been doing exactly that with a couple of bands for pretty much the same reasons as you.

I had a couple of gigs last month with a cajun band I used to play with. I used to play about half the set on lap steel and the other on my b-bender equipped Tele. I used to deploy the b-bender on about half the guitar songs.

This time, I decided to use my 6 string pedal steel and used it on both the lap steel and b-bender songs so about 75% of the set.

I got a lot of very nice compliments and the "I've always loved pedal steel" and "I've always wanted to play one of those" comments. Not one single person mentioned it sounded any different to other pedal steels they heard and nobody seemed to miss the Emmons contrary motion licks or the unison bends. Nobody seemed to notice it had fewer strings and pedals compared to other ones they had seen. One person asked what kind of keyboard I was playing but I get that with my Sho~Bud too.

I don't think any steelies were in the audience and, if they were, I'm sure they wouldn't have heard anything to make their ears prick up (the same would have been true if I'd had my Sho~Bud though).

But the whole guitar fitted into the bag that I usually use to carry the legs and pedal bar from my 10 stringer, I really enjoyed myself and the audience went home happy which is the most important thing in my book.

Lane Gray · Post by **Lane Gray** » 3 Mar 2016 7:15 am

Calvin, it basically comes down to temperament and teaching. When I made the jump from Dobro to pedal steel, my Dobro teacher was a tireless advocate of the pedal steel, and I had more guidance than I could ever want (not only lessons, but Mike would sit backstage at the Birchmere talking steel with me til it was time to go play his Dobro). The pedals and levers were explained as bar slants without moving the bar.
Regarding the number of strings and changes, I REALLY don't think that most are confused by the ones they're not using.
I'd heartily endorse a 6 as its own unique instrument, but I don't think it makes sense to be "training wheels for an E9th pedal steel guitar".
At least not if one comes to it with some chord theory.
I can't speak for the experience of a stone cold beginner, for I never had that outlook.

Donny Hinson · Post by **Donny Hinson** » 3 Mar 2016 7:28 am

Dave Dube wrote:
OK, well so what can a beginner get out of a 6-string:

1 Bar control
2 Getting accustomed to picks
3 Volume pedal technique
4 Learning nuances about where the string is picked and the effect on tone
5 harmonics
6 Familiarization with the tuning
7 scales-single note and harmonic
8 chords including 6th and 9th chords, and (with an f lever) Augmented and Diminished chords
9 pedal rocking
10 Some of the grips
11 Learn to "hear" the sound of the guitar. Recognize pedals when you hear them played.
12 Speed picking technique and some simple patterns
13 pick blocking
14 palm blocking
15 dealing with sound and many facets of amplification and tone control
16 vibrato
17 How to combine volume pedal and vibrato to make it cry...

Ok this is getting boring. You get my drift yet? You gave me three examples of "what makes a pedal steel a pedal steel" that I am missing out on with a 6. I gave you 17 reasons why the 6 is most of the pedal steel experience and is an ideal trainer and not a false economy. After mastering some, or all of these techniques beginners will know for themselves if they are ready to upgrade. If anyone really can learn all of this from scratch in two weeks...well my hat is off to him or her.

Well said! Dave Dube makes some pretty convincing arguments here, and it's plain that he's thought this over very carefully. I commend both his attitude and his eloquence. From all I've read in this topic, it's clear that few look look at the instrument and it's players in an objective fashion. Rather, they say that "this is what you (I?) need", or "this is what so-and-so needs", and then they proceed to declare (not "suggest"), the minimums that a potential player must have. Meanwhile, I watch...and I listen...to these very players play, and it's plain that neither they (nor I, for that matter) have acquired the skills and techniques that players like Buddy Charleton and Lloyd Green exhibited so flawlessly. I think that when the only way you feel you can improve your playing is to have more available chords, pedals, and levers, you may lose sight of the basics. This doesn't happen to everyone, mind you, but it's plain (to me, anyway), that more of the focus in the past decade or two has become more of what a player has (or can do), rather than how well he does it. In my own mind, someone playing in-tune, and with creativity and expression, is far more enjoyable than listening to a bunch of fancy chords, scales, and pedal moves that are done in a not-so-perfect manner.

My 2 cents, anyway. YMMV.

.

Alan Brookes · Post by **Alan Brookes** » 3 Mar 2016 10:46 am

Why build a six string instrument?

The answer is because pickups, bridges, nuts, machine heads are all built around this configuration, which the electric guitar has inherited from the 1800s, before which the guitar had five double courses.

Build a steel guitar with 8 strings, and it can play everything that a 6 string instrument can play, and more. Build one with 10 strings, and it can play even more.

The argument goes on and on. Then why not build a steel guitar with 120 strings? Why not? It's all a matter of how many string you can handle.

Buying a 6-string pedal steel guitar is like buying a 4-string acoustic guitar. You could do so much better.

Stu Schulman · Post by **Stu Schulman** » 3 Mar 2016 11:43 am

I could have used one of these a million years ago...very cool instrument

Dave Dube · Post by **Dave Dube** » 3 Mar 2016 3:00 pm

OK Lane. Maybe you should have told the newbies about that up front. It sounded like you were telling them they could play whatever Franklin plays on a 10/3/4. Now that you are clarifying it, what you are saying is that if they get the standard 10/3/4 they won't be able to do just what Franklin does but they can figure out how to adapt and work around 90% of it or pay someone to show them how to do 90% of it.

You haven't solved the problem, you just spent a lot of their money to get closer. The law of diminishing returns is kicking in.

You actually make my point that PSG is full of compromises--pro model guitars included--because of varying copedents. THAT is the source of FRUSTRATION your example should be focused on. A newbie ought to learn that right off and avoid that frustration by trying to be themself and not Paul Franklin. (I actually think he made a comment along those lines in the early days of the forum.) Anyway, it's not like a guitar, where they are all the same and do the things the same way, and that might not be apparent to a newbie.

You did it your way. More power to you. I think beginners should have the option to learn all the fundamentals they can without making a major investment. I think discouraging someone who is leaning this way for their own reasons is a disservice.

Until someone comes up with a chinese carter starter replacement (carter starter entered the market at $650) of 8 or 10 strings for a low cost, the six string is the defacto low end starter guitar on the market.