6 string pedal steels?

Lane Gray · Post by **Lane Gray** » 28 Feb 2016 9:48 pm

Calvin, I disagree. The first pedal steel guitar I started on was a borrowed Emmons student model, and I had both the Winston book and Buddy Emmons' 12 Shuffles.
And yes, I was fighting the haunted obstreperous volume pedal, which string was which et cetera, but I also had to fight a guitar that couldn't play the stuff in the Emmons book.
If you want to play what you hear pedal steels doing, you need 10/3/4. If you want to blaze your own trail on a six string, go for it.

Calvin Walley · Post by **Calvin Walley** » 28 Feb 2016 10:46 pm

but the first two songs you learn to play isn't "farewell party or "way to survive"
we all had to start simple

maybe you and Mike were the exceptions!!!

Tommi Toijonen · Post by **Tommi Toijonen** » 29 Feb 2016 12:16 am

Well, I'm not completely lost with my 10 stringer. I just don't seem to find good use to some of the strings there. I hardly ever go to low register for example - and the strings 1 and 2 are confusing. I really like (was it) the 3rd string, D# with a half step down lever thou - which was pretty confusing at first.

All instruments have their limitations and it's not necessarily wise trying to get all imaginable possibilities to one instrument. A tele with 3 frets wouldn't be a good option, but I wouldn't like to have 8 strings in it either - not to even mention a second neck with a mandolin scale - althou that would give me more opportunities. (I do have a few benders and toggle switches there thou...). DAD bass player has a two string bass to keep him in basics - some bass players want 8 strings and no frets.

Anyway, a lot of good ideas here. Maybe I try to figure out if it's possible to remove some strings and still have the same compedent as I have now. Or just get rid of extra strings and have a wider space between them here and there. Or just learn the dang thing.

Calvin Walley · Post by **Calvin Walley** » 29 Feb 2016 1:38 am

Lane said :

If you want to play what you hear pedal steels doing, you need 10/3/4.

maybe but the 1st thing you need is a couple years experience playing simpler things

you don't learn to play trying to play things years ahead of your skill level

if you try to play beyond your skill level THEN its frustrating

besides didn't you hear a steel playing on those links I provided ...lol

Dennis Montgomery · Post by **Dennis Montgomery** » 29 Feb 2016 8:55 am

My own PSG history/experience relates directly to the strong opinions I'm reading in this thread. Here's my story.

I'm primarily a rock & classical guitar/keyboard player. Got the PSG bug through that West Coast Jerry Garcia/Sneaky Pete/John McFee sound. When I got my 1st PSG back in '94 I became much more fascinated with understanding the music theory of chords and inversions than learning cool licks. Since then, I've been through 3 beautiful 10 strings but they came and went as I have been unsuccessful in learning how to play well or at least feel comfortable on each one. Why? After much reflection, the main reason is I could never get comfortable with my picking hand and 10 strings...specifically the string spacing. Just could never make it work wearing the metal claws and accurately picking strings 2-7-9

A couple weeks ago I was answering a question on another music forum about which songs Steve Howe (guitarist from Yes) played on steel vs pedal steel (non players seem to think everything he played with a slide is pedal steel

). Mentioned to my wife that I'm 0 for 3 on PSG and it still haunts me. She uttered those magic words that were a blessing AND a curse, "maybe you should try again"

Laid my old Fender Strat on my lap and started picking out 3 string triads with my right hand and thought, hey this is pretty easy with 6 strings...so decided to get a Fessenden 6 shooter. Then slept on it and thought, a 2 pedal 6 string is so super-limited, but they also make an 8 string 3 pedal, I should go for that. Contacted Jerry Fessenden and he mentioned he also had an old Fender 400 8 string 4 pedal so I pulled the trigger on that. Just finished a complete rebuild...stripped off all the metal parts and gave them a Naptha solvent bath then a nice dry teflon lube and repainted the black aluminum frame and am confident the string spacing is comfortable enough that I'll be able to pull this off...4th time's the charm huh

My point being, since a 10 string was "the standard", I never considered something smaller when I was starting out and it was just too much for me. I could never get the hang of it and wound up wasting an incredible amount of money learning that hard lesson. If I had started out on a 6, I could have gotten the feel and maybe moved up to a 10? Or not and would have been fine where I was. I think there are situations where starting someone out on a 6 string 2 pedal is the right decision...as long as they know there's a good chance they'll want to move up to an instrument with more strings/pedals/levers.

Some of us need to splash around in the shallows before we're thrown in the deep end of the pool

Calvin Walley · Post by **Calvin Walley** » 29 Feb 2016 9:54 am

i'm not trying to sell guitars for anyone over the others
but if i remember right
Mr. Hudson can always add another pedal or lever as needed so that adds a little more flexibility
i do know that you can get his guitar configured in many different ways

i think we do a disservice to the rank beginner by trying to get him/her to play years beyond their skill level
have you ever heard of a new piano player that the teacher started out telling them to listen to Beethoven
and try to play like him ?
but yet thats exactly what many pedal steel players want the rank beginner to do

understand and play years beyond their skill level
nothing wrong with pushing your limits , but first you have a strong foundation to build on

Lane Gray · Post by **Lane Gray** » 29 Feb 2016 10:11 am

But does anybody suggest that students start on a two-octave piano, a piano with only white notes, or a harpsichord (so that those pesky dynamics don't confuse them)? No. 88 keys with piano hammers.

Calvin Walley · Post by **Calvin Walley** » 29 Feb 2016 10:21 am

Lane Gray wrote:But does anybody suggest that students start on a two-octave piano, a piano with only white notes, or a harpsichord (so that those pesky dynamics don't confuse them)? No. 88 keys with piano hammers.

i picked up piano using a 44 key keyboard

got the gist of it pretty quickly too
not only that, i still have a lot of fun on that
same little keyboard
(1) i found out that while i like playing it i didn't want it to be my primary instrument
(2) it didn't break the bank when i bought it
(3) i learned a lot on it
(4) i didn't follow traditional teaching methods

Alan Brookes · Post by **Alan Brookes** » 29 Feb 2016 10:33 am

Lane Gray wrote:But does anybody suggest that students start on a two-octave piano, a piano with only white notes, or a harpsichord (so that those pesky dynamics don't confuse them)? No. 88 keys with piano hammers.

In days of yore that's exactly how it was. Instruments were designed to play in Amin. That's why the notes were named A,B,C,D,E,F,G, and they are all the white notes on the piano. The notes of Amin also happen to be the same notes of Cmaj. None of this is coincidence.
During the 1700s there were many ideas of how to allow a simple change of key. Unlike a cittern, the most popular string instrument of the day, you couldn't put a capo on a keyboard instrument. So people came up with a moveable keyboard, which slid left and right. So, if you slid the keyboard two notches to the right, all your white notes were now in the key of Bmin/D. It didn't catch on, even after the convention of equal temperament.
But that CAN be done with modern electronics. You can tell the computer that you're going to be using just the white notes and expecting to play in the key of F#, and the computer can handle it.
By the way, in case you haven't noticed, playing on just the black keys of a keyboard gives you a pentatonic blues scale in Eb. The easiest key to play the blues in on the guitar is E, so, if you downtune the guitars by a semitone, which also makes it easier to bend notes, you're playing in Eb using E shapes, and making it really easy for the keyboard player. Tuning your steel guitar down from E9 to Eb9, also makes it unlikely that you're going to break strings, and tuning your C6 neck down to B6 gives you your Eb6 chord on the 4th fret.

Mike Perlowin · Post by **Mike Perlowin** » 29 Feb 2016 10:42 am

How many of us learned from Winnie Winston's book? Either the 1st or 2nd song (I forget which) is "Red River Valley." If I remember correctly, the tab for song tells the readers to play a note on the 9th (D) string right around the 2nd measure.

Personally, I sometimes use the 7th (F#) string with the A and B pedals as the root of a minor chord. Or, with my equivalent of the D string (lowering the 8 down a whole step,) and the B pedal, to get the third of the various chords that use the D as a root.

I also use the chromatic strings to get scale patterns and unison licks.

I use all 12 strings of my U-12. I would feel handicapped with a regular 10 string.

In my opinion, a 6 string steel is only half of the instrument, and can only play half of the many chords, scales, and licks that are available on steels with 10 or 12 strings.

Calvin Walley · Post by **Calvin Walley** » 29 Feb 2016 10:50 am

mike

even you have to admit that you have a very unusual taste in music

after all these years i still wouldn't even attempt to play what you do

the 1st thing we need to be concerned with is
the wantbes playing goals
do they want to be a studio player
or a home player
a wantabe player that aspires to be a professional musician has to follow
a very different path than a home player does
many wantabee's don't even know if this instrument is something that they want to pursue
past a rudimentary understanding and skill level
and its incumbent on us to adjust our answers accordingly

Tommi Toijonen · Post by **Tommi Toijonen** » 29 Feb 2016 12:47 pm

Please point me a Ben Keith lick that would require 10 strings - and I do know he had 10 strings.

The kinder garden my kids were had only pentatonic instruments there. Poor kids couldn't hit a wrong note even if they wanted to.

Mike Perlowin · Post by **Mike Perlowin** » 29 Feb 2016 1:41 pm

Calvin, I admit that I'm a total weird-o, and not just when it comes to music. But I'll let you in on a little secret. Most of the off the wall classical stuff that I play is no more difficult than songs like Bud's Bounce or Remington Ride. Any competent steel player could play it, provided that they had an instrument capable of handling the different scales and chords.

I'm not talking about adding extra pedals or knee levers. I have a zero pedal that lowers G# strings to G natural, that I use occasionally, but basically, all that classical stuff is played on the standard 3 pedals and regular knee lever changes.

This thread is about 6 string steels vs 10 or 12 stringers. Again, I say that the D* and F# strings and the chromatic strings allow the player to do stings that cannot be done without them.

*I do not have a separate D string on my U-12. I get the D note by dropping the 8th string. I am undoubtedly missing something, but I feel having the low B is worth the trade off.

Calvin Walley · Post by **Calvin Walley** » 29 Feb 2016 2:13 pm

Mike

i am more than happy to take your word for it
and i never once thought that you are anything less
than a very good steel guitarist,
we just have different views on how to approach the
total newbee's

i look at it this way :
years ago when i wanted to get my pilots license ,
they didn't start me off on an jet with a full instrument package
i started on a Cessna 150 and for the 1st couple of flights we didn't even worry about me learning the instruments
as time went on and i progressed more and more instruments came into play ,
much later after i had gotten my VFR license i went on to more advanced aircraft
with full IFR instrument capability and then i learned to look at the flight instruments in a different way
the point is i had to take baby steps and then i had the option whether i wanted to continue my education or stop with the VFR license
i was never thrown in water that was over my head and
told to swim or die
and thats what i think a lot of
wantabee's feel like they are being told ..ie
that they have to start with the jet or they will have no chance to ever learn

Alan Brookes · Post by **Alan Brookes** » 29 Feb 2016 3:03 pm

It's all a matter of what you want to play. Most people who take up the steel guitar just want to play a background to country music. Others just want to play Hawaiian music, and disdain the use of pedals.
I was watching a video of early blues singers from the 1930s, who played regular 6-string or 12-string guitars, tuned open, and used a slide on the first, and sometimes the second strings, with great monotony. I could teach someone to play like that in about ten minutes.
Mike's requirements for a steel guitar, as talented as he is, will be irrelevant as long as classical musicians avoid the steel guitar, and electric instruments in general. It needs a Beethoven to write something for pedal steel before the classical music world will look on the instrument seriously.
So, let's consider what the pop musician needs of an instrument. Assuming he's playing in C (all the white notes) he just needs an easy way of playing C, F, G, Amin, Emin, Dmin, E and A chords. Give him some buttons to push, like on an autoharp, and he will be happy. So, just give him C open, F with one pedal, which gives him an easy G two frets up, Amin on a second pedal, Dmin on a 3rd, which gives him an easy Emin two frets up, and he will be forever contented. Don't bother with knee levers. Six strings are more than enough for him. If he finds six too difficult, give him an ukulele and shove him out of the door.

(He'll probably become a superstar.

)

Alan Brookes · Post by **Alan Brookes** » 29 Feb 2016 3:05 pm

By the way, all of that can be set up easily on a MultiKord, without having to climb underneath the instrument.

Calvin Walley · Post by **Calvin Walley** » 29 Feb 2016 3:23 pm

Alan

i totally concur

the very 1st thing we all (including myself ) need to do
is find out what the wantabe wants to do as far as how he will spend most of his time playing
and THEN we all need to be flexible on how we try to guide them
the way i suggest is NOT for the wantabee that has his sights set on being a working musician

it its however for the wantabee thats not even sure if he will pursue it in the long run or just wants to be a home player

Derrick Unger · Post by **Derrick Unger** » 29 Feb 2016 3:44 pm

Wow!!!...this thread has been burning it up..
Well I am a newbie to pedal steel but I am 61 and retired 6 months ago..took my first of just a few guitar lessons at 8, so I am not new to music..played bass professionaly for 6 yrs..play some keyboards..drums..harmonica and probably the kitchen sink..I am interested in the pedal steel will pick up the six string tomorrow,,already have a 10 string pedal steel and a 6 string lap...I'm going to try the 6 string pedal because I think at age 61 I know my limitations and I feel that a 6 string will suite my needs perfectly...I know a 6 string has some music in it...just listen to Zane King playing a Jackson 6 string in open E.

Dave Dube · Post by **Dave Dube** » 29 Feb 2016 5:39 pm

I am a big fan of 6 string pedal steels. Much better to start on than an old maverick or red baron.

Frankly I could never understand why you have to be "all in" just to see whether you like to play it or not. When you go to learn to play a regular guitar, is someone standing there telling you that you absolutely have to have a Martin D-45? Well at least a D-28...

That pretty well sums up the cost argument. It is imminently more practical to use a starter model when you are exploring.

Mike makes the point that you don't have the lower register notes, and he is correct that you can't play some of the stuff that is played. However, before you go say that it makes the case against a 6 string I would say think again.

Admittedly two pedals is minimal and once you get your feet wet you will probably want more changes. That said, why would a beginner need more changes when they don't know how to use the ones they have? Especially when they can add them cheaply later?

I own a 6-shooter and I have been adding changes and customizing as I go along. Jerry Fessenden has been great about parts and the prices compare favorably with most knee lever kits on the market for other brands. I know of no other vendor that lets you buy your guitar a change at a time LOL. Seriously this is a great advantage for a newbie to PSG.

The changer is really simple and easy to work on. Common wisdom says that the 6-shooter can't do a lower. Well not stock... I recently had a friend make me a finger that was long enough for 3 holes. Add a spring from an old strat bridge and an extra rod and now I have an E lower. That little exercise was a good refresher on string travel, rodding basics, and setting stops. A beginner could do this. Not nearly as intimidating as looking under a D10.

I bought a C pedal from Jerry a while back, so although I have a 6 string, I have the high F# and with the E lower I have the D# so, with the exception of low B and D, the notes are all there in reach.

Now I agree with Mike that it is nice to have the D (9th string). I like how it can be an alternate root and it is a good 7th tone. When I first got the six-shooter I only had the two pedals but I wanted an E9th tuning. E-F#-G#-B-E-G# low to high. After thinking it over I decided to make string six a D and pulled it to an E on P1. By doing that I had a 7th note and by half-pedaling I had a 4 string chord emulating the E-lower - another minor or a 6th chord. I learned to play quite a few songs that way. Sometimes I still tune my E down for certain songs.

So as I have described, with the addition of a couple of changes you can have most of the tuning. I'm putting my F lever back this week and I will have a 3x2. I can tune it to c6 or E9. Maybe I will add 2 more strings someday but I'm undecided.

OK so what does my 6 shooter have that Mike's MSA's DON'T have??

3/8" string spacing. It Is great! Bar slants become more effective and so does picking. I'm not such a big fan of the chromatic strings because they crowd the fretboard and there are other ways to get those notes. I would make that trade off every time.

Finally, after having ShoBud and MSA D10's several GFI's and a bunch of ShoBud Mavericks and Pros over the years, I can tell you that having 3x4 or 2 necks still won't guarantee that you can play like the pros. Even if you have the skills you might not have the copedent. So you will have to adapt anyway. They say Curly Chalker had some "secret" change he didn't share. Pete Drake was also known for changing his copedent for certain recordings. A lot of players do that still. The "standard" 3x4 doesn't have a Franklin pedal or an x lever. So there you go. You are $2000 into a guitar and still can't play what you hear because something is missing!

At some point you have to decide to quit chasing changes and just interpret a song the best way you know how. Might as well start out that way.

Is a 6-shooter a real instrument? You bet it is. For my money it is the best starter instrument on the market.

Larry Bressington · Post by **Larry Bressington** » 29 Feb 2016 8:09 pm

This is a very interesting topic....considering most western swing music was done on six and eight strings steels with no pedals, today's players would say you need 10 and 12 string and 5 pedals to play good swing....it's all going to be (player dependent) there are masters of every style and every instrument in the world. The six shooter could be a monster in his own right agreeing to be in its own class.

You don't put a Corvette in the same class as a pinto, but you can have sedan car races and you have sports car races.

The six shooter is a steel guitar with a future...I started out on a double eight string non-pedal, I can really appreciate a nice simple steel to get things moving in the right direction, yes you can advance and go into 10 strings and more if you like.

Starting out on a double 10 loses more players than it gains.

Calvin Walley · Post by **Calvin Walley** » 29 Feb 2016 9:46 pm

Larry said

"Starting out on a double 10 loses more players than it gains."

truer words were never spoken ...lol
i remember seeing those double 10s when i was
struggling with a single 10 thinking ...ooooh HELL NO
LOL

Mike Perlowin · Post by **Mike Perlowin** » 1 Mar 2016 3:30 am

Dave Dube wrote: When you go to learn to play a regular guitar, is someone standing there telling you that you absolutely have to have a Martin D-45? Well at least a D-28...

You don't need a Martin, but you do need frets. I believe not having the D, F# and chromatic strings is like having a guitar with only 3 frets.

There are a million chords and scale patterns and licks that require those strings. Not having them limits your options.

Charlie McDonald · Post by **Charlie McDonald** » 1 Mar 2016 6:27 am

I really don't agree that having fewer than ten strings is like having a guitar with three frets. That's just silly.
But trying to convince a player who has mastered twelve strings would be equally silly.

When I decided to downsize, Larry Bell opined that he'd miss string 2, and I'd agree,
but having reached the Peter Principle (the limit of my incompetence) there were tradeoffs to make.
I haven't missed the F#'s at all, yet, but this s-6 will lower hi G# to F#, and I lower hi E to D# along with it.
It's not the notes and scales I'm after; you can't do chromatic runs, but for me, it's the sound I'm after.

It's a new design problem, with different parameters.

You can have it as you do, Tommi

1: D#
2: G#
3: E
4: B
5: G#
6: E

I opted for a tuning with the same compass as an S10:

1: G#
2: E
3: B
4: G#
5: E
6: B

Either way, I think it a better place to start (particularly with the hi D#) than the Starter and Red Baron that I had.
No, your idea isn't stupid.

Lane Gray · Post by **Lane Gray** » 1 Mar 2016 7:19 am

If I had to play a 6 string, I'd choose
G#
E
B
G#
F#
E
One pedal raises the G#s
The other raises the B
A knee that lowers the Es.
But, that's from a cat that doesn't have a problem relating to the E9th tuning.

Dave Dube · Post by **Dave Dube** » 1 Mar 2016 7:24 am

Mike, I said the comment about the Martin was aimed at the cost argument, which in retrospect, I don't think you mentioned.

I took pains to go over the tuning and work-arounds and spoke directly to the point of havng F# and D, as well as getting the high F# and D# from added changes. That relates to your three fret comment.

You say we need the chromatic strings and I say we don't. We need the notes and they are there on a no-pedal steel as well as on a 2-pedal steel. I get my F# by using a pedal instead of a roll, or if it suits better by moving up 2 frets and blocking. Usually the note following the F# is an E so, no big deal.

I can't play Firebird Suite. You can and you DO need the whole package. Your needs are determined by decisions you made over the years. You did not need everything when you first started. I am not going to play Firebird suite any time soon and the people that listen to me play won't mind that either, so my needs are not the same as yours. A beginner's needs are even less.

It is not wise to buy everything now in case you will need it later. Present value of money vs. future value.

Then there is the law of diminishing returns. You can buy most of the Nashville setup on a 6 for less than the cost of a stage one. The cost goes up sharply after that. When you listen to country music you hear the A,B,C,F and D changes, roughly in that order of frequency. A 3x2 is the heart of the E9th setup and you can have it and learn it quite nicely on a 6 string.

For a beginner, or even most people, that might be enough.

I never had anyone come up to me and say "I love that unison lick on that song.." They say "I love the sound of a steel guitar." They would say it even if you didn't play the unison lick like the record did. Not many folks really notice or care about this stuff except steel players, which are pretty rare in these parts anyway! I believe a 6 stringer is a fine option for the OP. The purpose is to make music and have fun doing it; who would begrudge that?

Mike I want to be clear that I mean no disrespect to you or your perspective. I am not trying to change your mind, either. I am just putting information out that may have an impact on someone who is on the fence or considering buying a worn out vintage starter model for twice what it is worth, or for the person who wants to downsize. There is not a lot of information about 6-string PSG out there, so my perspective on this and my experiences represent something different than what is commonly seen and I hope that can be useful. When b0b was talking about 6-stringers way back when, I thought he was on to something. Now I know he was.