Working Without Pay

[Chris Walke]

Here's how I factor this, except for a benefit that I want to do, for which I would refuse money no matter what:

The issue for me is whether or not I need to book my time and be there. If I have the option to show up or not show up, as in an informal jam or other type of informal gig, then I don't need to get paid. It doesn't matter to me who is making money or whatever. But if I have an obligation to book the time, travel, set up and tear down, and play, then I'm gonna get paid or I stay home.

Right now, I don't do many regular gigs - I'm too busy with my college teaching work. But there are some people with whom I can just show up and play if I feel like it. They have contracted the gigs, they're the ones that have to be there no matter what, and they take the money. Oh, occasionally someone will want to throw me some dough, but I don't expect it and frequently tell them to just skip it.

If I take on a professional obligation, I expect to get paid. Otherwise, not.

That's what I do too. For example, there's a trio made up of friends that I play with from time to time (we've all played in various bands together over the years). My wife likes the band, as do our friends, so every now & then, we all decide to go to a venue they are playing. I bring minimal equipment and sit in. I get to play with friends, I get to play for my wife & our friends, we have a great time. No need for any money, it's not my gig. If it IS my gig, then I expect to be compensated.

Another example, there is a venue at which a friend of mine hosts a local singer-songwriter showcase. Usually, the featured performer will have anywhere from 1-10 other musicians come up and accompany him/her (seriously), on a song or some songs or the entire set... This is a pool of musicians that know & support one another. Only the featured performer gets paid, everyone else just throws in because one day, one of them will be the featured performer and ask the others. It's really kinda beautiful.

[Barry Blackwood]

[Bob Poole]

A bar,restaurant,an outdoor festival,no,I will not do for free....church & church related is,for me,a different matter.

[b0b]

I have a friend who says "music is my golf". He plays to relax, to unwind. Carting equipment and setting it up doesn't feel like work to him. Having an audience appreciate his talent is payment enough.

Try finding a chef who has that attitude towards his work. Therein lies the difference. Cooking food for strangers is always work, but for many musicians, performing for strangers is not work. I understand the professional musician's dilemma when a venue exploits people like my friend, but at some point you have to understand that a lot of good musicians are not in the music business.

[Mark van Allen]

I do, b0b,

... understand that a lot of good musicians are not in the music business.

but I also understand that a lot of poor or fledgling musicians want to be in the music business.

It's the intersection of that desire, and the consequent proliferation of players, with the idea that streaming music should be free, that makes people want free live music. Around here people will pay $5 for a beer, but will absolutely not pay a cover charge, unless the band already has a lot of cache. Add that to "production fees" for the nicer venues that run as high as $400… and it's pretty tough to do the math.

It does seem to be part of a cultural inclination away from valuation of art and creation.

[frank rogers]

The problem is that the general public wouldn't know the difference between Buddy Emmons and Cousin Jody. In other words as long as something "looks like a band" that's fine with them. In other words, quality isn't that big of a "deal" to the average "Joe". It's naive to believe that club owners and patrons are serious music devotees and are willing to pay a living wage to groups of musicians. Yes, there are the rare exceptions but they are few and far between.

[John De Maille]

The problem is that the general public wouldn't know the difference between Buddy Emmons and Cousin Jody. In other words as long as something "looks like a band" that's fine with them. In other words, quality isn't that big of a "deal" to the average "Joe". It's naive to believe that club owners and patrons are serious music devotees and are willing to pay a living wage to groups of musicians. Yes, there are the rare exceptions but they are few and far between.

I really tend to agree with this. There are very few patrons, who, take note of what and how I play. Even though I play in a band and try to make it sound all correct, I'm really entertaining myself with what I play. I'm the most critical and get the most enjoyment out of my playing. The crowd or the employers couldn't give a hoot who I was or what I did as long as I fit in and made it work.
The greats as we know or knew them probably wouldn't be revered as well if it weren't for other musicians and or steel players. We musicians are the only ones, who, make them famous.
I'm sorry, I've gone off the track enough! I still won't play for free though, unless I have a moral conscience to do it.

[Dean Holman]

I'm not saying this to put down club musicians by any means but there's really no sufficient money to be made playing in clubs. You have to set your goals higher and be willing to play the political game. However, I was fortunate to work in some different situations that wasn't just playing clubs and had the opportunity to get some stage experience doing music shows and talent contests and getting to know other musicians on a personal level and learning to not just be a good musician but having a good work ethic and learning to work well with other musicians and understand the business part of the music business and everything that goes with being able to sell yourself not just musically but being cooperative and a team player and knowing what to play and what not to play and having self discipline. Those musicians that have that much dedication and work ethic and good attitudes and work well musically and etc. Those are the one's that usually have more to bargain with. You have to have enough confidence in yourself to realize you have more to offer than just being a good musician. I've seen iffy musicians over the years that I felt were just average but they had more than just the ability to play and had other qualities that made them standout. I'm sorry to say that in some cases NOT every case by any means, just doing club gigs don't always represent the higher qualities of a lot of musicians true abilities. You have to get to a certain level and represent yourself in a manner that people take you seriously and realize there is a difference in hiring for free or hiring someone that knows how to handle themselves and certain situations other than just playing instruments. I really feel there's always a good compromise and club owners and venue promoters need to learn that they can't underestimate what they think people know or not know about the difference between good music and bad music. I still believe that there are just as many people that appreciate good music and professionalism whether they know anything about music or not. You've always heard the cliche you get what you pay for. In this case, if your paying for nothing especially if it's not a charitable situation or playing just for the pleasure of it in which I'm saying there's absolutely nothing wrong with that, they are not getting the loyalty and dependability and the discipline and other qualities that I myself would be willing to pay for if I were hiring a band, and I'm not just saying that because I'm a musician. Does any of this I just said make any sense at all? Lol... I'll shut up now

[Jeff Bollettino]

The problem is that the general public wouldn't know the difference between Buddy Emmons and Cousin Jody. In other words as long as something "looks like a band" that's fine with them. In other words, quality isn't that big of a "deal" to the average "what Joe".

I don't know for sure but I think when you start blaming the dog for not eating the dog food you're headed in the wrong direction.

Show me a band today that's trying as hard to be entertaining as Cousin Jody did and I'll bet they're going to be successful.

It's naive to believe that club owners and patrons are serious music devotees and are willing to pay a living wage to groups of musicians. Yes, there are the rare exceptions but they are few and far between.

Club owners are business people. If they're not willing to pay for music it's because a paid band doesn't have a business impact greater than a free one.

See the link - 2014 concert ticket sales were $6 billion vs 1990 $1 billion. Adjusted for inflation that's a double or a triple. I don't think the argument that the public just wants to stay home holds up against this data

http://www.statista.com/statistics/3060 ... h-america/

[George Redmon]

I agree with Jeff Bollettino, and Frank. To add to their statements. We are in many ways responsible for our lack of jobs, and low pay scale. A victim of our own demise so to speak. With all due respect, and I mean that sincerely. Setting up an old Sho~Bud, wearing a big cowboy hat and Roy Rogers shirt with pointed cowboy boots, playing 1970's country music, complete with Green and Hughey licks we slaved half our lives to master, just ain't gonna cut it in todays upscale clubs. And that's where the money's at. Is steel guitar really becoming extinct, and our jobs drying up, or are steel guitar players causing it's downfall? Just mention Robert Randolph's' name, and get shot. What's left? Nursing homes, VFW's, neighborhood bars. You'll be lucky to cover the price of strings. Nope...I'm not a fan of today's country music....but what ya gonna do? (Posted With All Sincere Humility)

[b0b]

In many venues, Robert Randolph is the only steel player that customers know by name. During breaks, they often ask me if I've heard of him.

[Stephen Gambrell]

Hey, b0b--Did you get my email?

[Jeff Campbell]

I myself have been down each road from paid to non paid and I have found in most, each place that tells you someone else is willing to play for free is telling you a big one... most club owners have no idea what it takes to be a musician!! I have never had anyone hand me a amp, FX , Emmons or anything and say ... here it's free... I worked in the Electrical engineering field many years and no one ever gave me meters or tools for free?? I paid a lot of money for all my equipment and spent hours upon hours , days, and years learning it.. sorry but I didn't keep your lights on for free and now that I play and you make money from my playing I get a portion too...

[Graham]

How do you equate an add for "solo" musicians to a restaurant or club wanting "free bands"??

[Ben Edmonds]

Does your band draw? That's kinda the bottom line for club owners. I know everyone wants all their hard work to be rewarded but if the band don't draw....
I've seen bands drive business away. I don't know and it's a multi layered problem of too many musicians and not enough gigs and the public not caring and bro country and all that. Fact is "bro country" is what people want to hear like it or not. It seems on this forum there's a whole lot of talk about the good old days but the good old days are gone so I don't know.
In the end if your band draws a crowd that crowd
Is happy to throw down five bucks and if that crowd spends money the owner is happy to pay. My guess is lots of bands aren't quite as valuable as they think they are

[James Jacoby]

One thing I haven't seem mentioned, yet, is the effect of the law cracking down on people who have been drinking in the clubs, and trying to drive home. Around here, people are afraid to drink in the clubs, because of that! Consequently attendance is way down, and paying gigs are difficult to get! Also karaoke, and DJs have taken over, and replaced a lot of gigs! Even getting a "free" gig, around here, is hard! Only the very best, established bands, are working, and most of them, for reduced pay! -Jake-

[Bryan Daste]

http://imgur.com/gallery/crizCzc

[T. C. Furlong]

Circumstances under which I will play steel guitar without pay:

Charity event for a legit organization that I would contribute to otherwise.

Gigs that I am the leader and the money is fair or low when divided only among others.

Gigs that are on my bucket list. e.g. Prairie Home Companion, White House private concert for the President, Grammy awards (and only if I am a nominee)

Gigs with musical heroes e.g. Merle Haggard, Asleep At The Wheel, Charlie Parker, Paul Desmond, et al

Gigs that honor people that I've played with over the years e.g. awards shows, goodbye parties, funerals...

Church gigs where the other musicians are phenomenal (I've done many)

Circumstances under which I will not play steel guitar even in the event of high pay:

Gigs with people who are not really nice

Gigs for organizations who are not nice e.g. politicians, tobacco companies, greedy corporations or their officers

Gigs in smokey rooms - Las Vegas get a clue!

[Don R Brown]

Makes sense to me, T.C.!

My only question is how do you tell a greedy corporation from one that isn't?

[George Kimery]

I will play for free anytime for a cause that I think is worthy. I played a benefit for a 12 year old boy that was fighting cancer. Parent's needed money for travel expenses to St. Jude's. Worthy cause. Unworthy cause, in my opinion, raising money to buy a little league team ball suits.

If I can make expenses and have enough left over for a good meal, I am usually in. If I don't make gas money, the end result is I am taking money out of my own pocket to play. Another time I will play for free is to repay a favor that was given to me by another artist in the past, assuming that it is a free gig and nobody is being paid. If the caterer's, for example, are being paid and not donating their time and food, then I want to be paid also.

I will work cheap if it is a gig I want to do and they simply can't pay anymore. I play once a month dance at a Ruritan Building. They charge $5.00 admission and are lucky to get 50 people. They pay $50.00 for the rent of the building and $200.00 for the band. Do the math....they have to have 50 people just to pay the band and rent. They also have to pay the electric bill and yard mowing in the summer. Concessions keeps them alive. I have been playing this gig for 10 years and enjoy it very much. If they were charging $10.00, I can count. I will not let somebody take advantage of me and if they could afford more, I would ask for a raise or ride off into the sunset.

I have been playing in bands for more than 50 years. I have made a lot of friends and picked with a lot of pickers. Anytime some of these people (including a few gals) have a one night stand for tips or all you can eat plus tips, if I am not playing, I will be glad to pitch in. I learned a long time ago, if you are in it for the money, you are going to be sitting in your bedroom picking all by yourself. Nothing wrong with that if that is what you want to do.

[Rick Campbell]

George,

I commend you for your generosity. Next time you're doing a gig for someone like the boy with cancer, please call me if you need a free fiddler, guitar player, bass player, singer, someone to stack chairs, anything I can do to help. These are the shows that are most rewarding to me. I live in Sneedville now so it's not very far up to your neck of the woods. I'd be honored.

RC

[Herb Steiner]

A few random thoughts...

First, benefits are situational. How many of y'all have played benefits for free, some many miles away from your home, and you've found that:
1. the venue is getting paid (turning on electricity, plumbing, etc.;
2. the venue gets the bar receipts;
3. the bartender and waitresses are getting paid;
4. the printer that made the posters is getting paid;
5. the janitor is getting paid to clean the place afterwards; and
6. the musicians, who are the ONLY REASON people are at the benefit in the first place, are the ONLY ONES NOT GETTING PAID.

Just sayin'...

2: Playing for "exposure" is situational. Doing a showcase at South by Southwest is an entrepreneurial investment; a band can get a recording contract for doing one. Playing at a local restaurant is not exposure, it's exploitation. A meal and free drinks doesn't even cut it for me... show me the money, even if it's only 50 bucks and the club is close to my house. Thankfully and with appreciation, most bands decide in that situation they'd rather have me there and assume paying me a modest sum is "worth it."

3. In 10 years as an advertising manager for a local weekly alternative newspaper, I made slightly less money than as I did in 40-plus years working for recording artists and popular regional bands

You do the math.

[Dean Holman]

I think we're all pretty much in agreement the type of gigs that we don't mind doing for free. However, it does become so easy to be taken advantage of and for some reason people don't understand the time we put into this and it's not like we're asking someone to cut their arm off to pay a little something that they are going to get much enjoyment out of. Look at how much we're willing to pay at times for things we get enjoyment from. Is it a necessity in life to be entertained, no, not really, but I think it's worth it to a lot of people to get some enjoyment out of life. I do about 250 shows a year give or take 6 nights a week. I do shows when I'm sick, burned out, depressed, or my sugar drops because of my diabetes and etc. I have to almost be lying in my deathbed to miss out on doing a show. But it can be a sacrifice to do shows and for the most part we don't mind because we realize people come to our shows in hopes that people can enjoy our show for a couple of hours and forget about their aches and ailments and all the problems they have to deal with, and I feel that should be worth something.

[Charlie McDonald]

6. the musicians, who are the ONLY REASON people are at the benefit in the first place, are the ONLY ONES NOT GETTING PAID.

... and are the ones generating the income.

I used to play with the Honky Dreads in Tulsa (I was the musician of the group, to paraphrase Jimmy Carl Black).
There was a regular open mic at the Open Door Arts Cooperative where we were the big act and anyone could come to showcase talent.

The door paid the lights and rent and a good time was had by all. I don't think we ever made a buck on a gig, but we were outrageous,
had a lot of fun, and I somehow became known as a reggae bass player and got a recording session for that.

There are good reasons to play for free, as Joni Mitchell suggested. Good people, good memories, the kind of things to be recalled here.

[Jeff Bollettino]

http://imgur.com/gallery/crizCzc

LMAO!