Working Without Pay

Ray Montee · Post by **Ray Montee** » 2 Jan 2016 2:29 pm

Alan, I couldn't have said it better myself.

I've encountered so many of these "Doing YOU a favor"
kinda people that I can hardly control myself.

We musicians must be giving off an impression that we all need help in promoting our talents.........even to an extremely small crowd in a local bar.

You said it perfectly! THANKS.........

GeneRector · Post by **GeneRector** » 2 Jan 2016 4:26 pm

Howdy! My wife and I were in Vancouver, BC back in the early 1990's and dined at a bar/dining establishment. They had a very good piano player that played "our song" at the right time. I went over and gave him $10.00. Musicians don't get paid enough and I remember when $10 may be all you get at a gig. Always, Gene

Donny Hinson · Post by **Donny Hinson** » 2 Jan 2016 4:36 pm

This "ad" has been around for many years, and the premise is contrived, but still humorous. You can always find a place to eat, but you can't always find live music. The difference, I suppose, is that people have to eat. They don't have to listen to music.

Sonny Jenkins · Post by **Sonny Jenkins** » 2 Jan 2016 4:55 pm

Some people think that is why it is called,,,,"playing",,,,and as long as there are those who will play for free (to gain experience (?) and promote (?) themselves ,, the working musician's wages will always be low.

Larry Bell · Post by **Larry Bell** » 2 Jan 2016 5:39 pm

We may get paid for 'playing' but physicians get paid for 'practicing'.

Rich Upright · Post by **Rich Upright** » 2 Jan 2016 8:25 pm

Play for free? Not happenin' here.

I'd burn my guitar first.

Damir Besic · Post by **Damir Besic** » 2 Jan 2016 11:21 pm

few years ago I played with a band down town Nashville at Toottsies back room...we played every Thursday... we didn't get paid from the bar, but whatever we made in tips... one Thursday we were told we wont be playing that night because some band out of town is playing our shift...they actually paid the club to let them play that night... how do you compete with that??? another time I played at "Roberts" on Broadwat, for free of course, they made me pay for a cup of soda....thats when I decided that clubs on lower Broadway in Nashville can kiss my ass...

Tony Prior · Post by **Tony Prior** » 3 Jan 2016 4:49 am

I'm currently working with a band one night a month, a steady one nighter, the money is pretty good. We were just contracted to go another 6 months, Jan thru June.

The band is run by the Bass player and his wife, nice enough people but lost from reality. They were invited to play an event,maybe a dance, not sure... monthly, about an hour away for the "exposure" No pay. They queried the band and of course I spoke up, for me, not for anyone else. Normally I'm pretty quiet as this is just a once a month adventure.

What I said was, I am not available to work for free but if you folks want to do it I have no problem if you want to replace me. They attempted to go down the "exposure" road of which I replied, I don't want or desire anymore exposure , but please don't let me stop you from doing it.

Exposure definition:

"we will ALLOW you to play for free because what we offer you in exposure far outweighs any money we are NOT going to pay you and you should thank us".

translation :

"We don't want to invest any money in our business so we need you to play/work for free so we can earn an income and not lose any money in the process".

G Strout · Post by **G Strout** » 3 Jan 2016 4:58 am

Floyd Lowery · Post by **Floyd Lowery** » 3 Jan 2016 5:44 am

I love the reply to the restaurant.

I was offered several free gigs when I was booking a duo in South Florida. My answer was we will play for free, but we have to charge for loading our equipment, setting it up, taking it back down, and loading it up again, plus traveling expense.
Then one time I was offered $20 to go to a town about 20 miles away to do some recording for a gospel group. I told them I don't pack up my guitar for #20. I guess they got someone else or did without a steel on that recording.

Rick Barnhart · Post by **Rick Barnhart** » 3 Jan 2016 6:41 am

wrote:Play for free? Not happenin' here.

I'd burn my guitar first.

That'll show 'em !

Rick Campbell · Post by **Rick Campbell** » 3 Jan 2016 10:17 am

I've watched this whole music thing for about 40 years. I've played with professional, big name bands, and local jam session bands, and all in between. I understand all the arguments, but let's don't forget that some people just enjoy playing and have no problem playing for free. For example, a small restaurant that can't afford to pay $500 for a band, but will give guys a free meal and a nice place for them to play their music and enjoy their time with friends, etc... I've done this a lot for the same reasons. On the other hand, if there is money involved, I want my part of it..... matter of principal.

I know of several steel shows where only one guest player gets paid and everyone else plays for free, and are always telling whoever is in charge to save them a spot. Nothing wrong with that.

The whole problem with music as a profession is that for every professional player, there's a bunch more that just play as a hobby. Very often, these "hobby" players are very good players. It would be the same way if there were a large group of people that paint houses, or mow grass as a hobby. How many have had a buddy fix an amp, change the copedent on a guitar, fix a lawn mower, or computer, for free because "he enjoys doing this stuff"..... but are you not depriving the professional shops from this work? I bet Best Buy would be glad to repair your computer.... for a fee.

It's sad, but I believe that the average person eating their supper and listening to a band, wouldn't know or care if I was playing or a monster player like Doug Jernigan. I've observed that as long as they hear some songs that they are familiar with, a singer that's not extremely bad, and the band is not bursting their eardrums, they tend to be happy.

My observations, your mileage may vary.

RC

John De Maille · Post by **John De Maille** » 3 Jan 2016 10:36 am

I can understand doing a benefit for someone or something that you felt strong about. That's usually a conscience or moral thing to me and I wouldn't have a problem with it. But, working for free at some club or dinner place or laying down tracks all for exposure is BS to me. I've done that route before, when, I was all full of myself and it never paid off in the long run. I also don't like working for the door or tips. The business is too fickle to depend on that, for me. Now a days, if I don't get paid, I don't go. My experience, age and body expect to be compensated for my worth. As they say in the dry cleaning trade " no tickie, no shirtie ".

Rick Campbell · Post by **Rick Campbell** » 3 Jan 2016 10:56 am

I might add. I agree about the benefit shows. I want people to call me for the shows to help needy people, sick, house fire, etc... I will never turn one down if it's feasible considering distance, etc... Playng music has brought me so much enjoyment, and I've made so many good friends, that I'm very motivated to give something back when I can. I think the vast majority of people here feel the same way.

RC

Roger Rettig · Post by **Roger Rettig** » 3 Jan 2016 11:01 am

Rick's post makes a lot of sense. So does Tony's.

Many, many years ago at a time when I was doing a lot of recording work (and was known as one of the mere handful of steel players in London) I was approached by an old acquaintance who asked if I'd do a couple of overdubs on a project he was involved with.

He offered a very nominal amount (can't now remember how much but it was way below scale at the time), saying: "I have other projects in the pipeline - help me out here and..." etc, etc.

Fast-forward to a few months later. He called again and was dismayed when I asked him for scale. He apparently 'couldn't manage that much...' and I didn't take the job.

Even more months later I heard from someone else. My name had come up in conversation and the 'old acquaintance' completely dismissed me saying - "He's only interested in the money - forget him!" (or words to that effect).

I learned my lesson back then and I haven't fallen for that line since. We have to value ourselves or accept the consequences.

Sonny Jenkins · Post by **Sonny Jenkins** » 3 Jan 2016 11:30 am

Just my logic,,,,any musician who advocates or condones anyone playing for free (for any event,,,dinner, dance, entertainment whatever,,,where the proprietor or promoter makes ANY money on it,,,,should NEVER, EVER complain about the low compensation for musicians. We have a lot of money invested in equipment,,,not to mention the time and effort put in to reach a state of proficiency that has a value.

John De Maille · Post by **John De Maille** » 3 Jan 2016 11:34 am

Sonny Jenkins wrote:Just my logic,,,,any musician who advocates or condones anyone playing for free (for any event,,,dinner, dance, entertainment whatever,,,where the proprietor or promoter makes ANY money on it,,,,should NEVER, EVER complain about the low compensation for musicians. We have a lot of money invested in equipment,,,not to mention the time and effort put in to reach a state of proficiency that has a value.

I agree!

Doug Beaumier · Post by **Doug Beaumier** » 3 Jan 2016 11:38 am

I agree. Playing for free hurts all of us. Problem is... there are always musicians willing to play for free, for "exposure". And many clubs willing to take advantage of young musicians' enthusiasm to play.

Dean Holman · Post by **Dean Holman** » 3 Jan 2016 12:22 pm

Here's my problem with it. A person goes to college for 4 to 8 years to be a lawyer, a doctor or other professions. Being professional musicians is a lifetime of perfecting your craft just to make a living. At what point does a person pay enough dues or play for free? When does wanting to be good at something and working at being a good musician, become different than any other profession that takes as much talent and skill as anything else that anyone does. I've also never really understood that if a person's business has to do with entertainment and I say that in regards to club owners that buy alcohol for their business which in itself is the entertainment of drinking, well, sorry but I can buy my own alcohol and entertain myself without spending the extra cost of drinking it at a bar. The vast majority go to a club and want to see some kind of entertainment. These clubs that hire DJ's and all this karaoke is okay but please tell me there are still a lot of people out there willing to pay a little something for live entertainment. Those that play music as a hobby is great and wonderful but also have other jobs or other sources of income,and don't necessarily have to rely on their achievement to become a great musician. Being good enough comes at different levels. I've been in situations where other bands or musicians I've worked with in the past,only performed at a certain level and enjoyed what they did I think is perfectly okay. To those musicians who wanted to go farther I don't think had in mind that they were going to get rich. In fact, most musicians I know just want to keep their heads above water. Why is this asking too much? I've been playing music professionally for almost 27 years and I'm not raking it in. Everything I have is attributed to some smart business decisions along with having a wife that works too. I think this all boils down to that most of the musicians that I know just want to make a living. We do love what we do and there was a time that exposure and paying your dues is part of it for a while but not 15,20 or 25 years of it. Also, I won't mention names but someone told me a story one time about someone they worked for was complaining because they owed money to the IRS. Why wouldn't you want to pay your band something extra to have the write off to not have to pay anymore to the government plus you just gained that much more respect and loyalty from your band. I wish things were different and can only hope but everyone that's willing to play for free, is not helping their own situation in the long run. Everyone's time and efforts are worth something.

Alan Brookes · Post by **Alan Brookes** » 3 Jan 2016 12:29 pm

I guess a lot of it comes down to whether you enjoy playing and would play anywhere.
I'm reminded of folk clubs and jam session clubs in England, where I grew up. They're usually held in a local pub, which provides a room for them free, on the correct assumption that they will be drinking all night. Usually, players and singers don't pay, but the audience pays an admission fee. Some weeks they have guest performers who get paid, and the whole thing is usually run as a club.

chris ivey · Post by **chris ivey** » 3 Jan 2016 12:32 pm

i was standing outside a club one night toking up with some younger musicians. one mentioned that this steel player he heard of asked $50 for a session. of course, it had been me.
the session had been for a talented local writer/guitarist. i had to find the studio, set up my stuff, listen and learn the tunes, deal with the writer and producer..all went well and everyone was happy and they actually paid me a little extra. i played some really cool stuff.
i did it quickly and gave them something better than they had anticipated.
..but the young alternative whiners new nothing about that stuff.i told them i go out of my way to work within people's budgets even though i've been
underpaid in general my whole career.
they just haven't grasped the fact yet that they can ask for money when they play. from the very beginning my friends and i were looking at this career as a means to feed myself. i never made much, but i survived for 40 years without having to get a cubicle telemarketing job. and perks of all types still appear.
once the young alternative pickers get kicked out of their parents houses, they'll be asking for monney, too!

Roger Rettig · Post by **Roger Rettig** » 3 Jan 2016 12:32 pm

Supply and demand, Dean?

Apparently if you want to assure yourself a comfortable living then you should study medicine or the law. Electing to fight the good fight as a musician is chancy at best. Only a relative few will become rich as a result and most will give it up and find a mundane alternative when they discover they can't live as well as they'd like to on the proceeds.

Me? I fall in the middle. I get a living from doing it but not a great one. It's certainly too late to choose another path (I'll be 73 in March) - anyway, I lack the desire to change and I've learned that there are very few material things that I absolutely have to have.

Entertainers and/or musicians of all levels are very thick on the ground. There's no shortage and the general level of remuneration reflects this.

Dean Holman · Post by **Dean Holman** » 3 Jan 2016 1:44 pm

That is true Roger. I know supply and demand plays a part and if a person wants to ensure a certain income, such as being a doctor or lawyer, that would certainly be the route someone should go. The supply and demand definitely applies to those professions along with other professions that make a great deal of income. There are also other supply and demand professions that don't make a lot of income but they can at least rely on what they do make. A musician is the only profession I know that can never really rely on a steady income or have the job security like other professions. I'm not saying there aren't other jobs that people don't risk getting laid off or losing their jobs, but being a musician and having some sort of a steady income is pretty much an everyday coin toss especially for those musicians who are working in a good situation and have been let go for no particular reason. That's the part I hate the most about the music business. In a good and secure situation, even if your doing a great job and are a valuable asset, I've still seen great musicians lose their jobs for no reason. It's those scenarios that every musician is faced with that every penny counts. I've never seen such a wishy washy business as the music business that people are just trying to survive because it's not so much the supply and demand business as other businesses, but there is still somewhat of a demand for it. Music and musicians are not obsolete and there will always be a demand for it in some form or fashion. I will say, there are certain situations that musicians play for free and don't mind to play for free, but that can't be the expected norm for everything. Artists that do benefits still get paid something. Playing for free is one thing but losing money to do it is another.

Jeff Bollettino · Post by **Jeff Bollettino** » 3 Jan 2016 3:56 pm

I've debated with myself about responding to threads like this in this forum. I suppose these comments won't earn me many fans here but I offer them with sincerity nonetheless.

In my experience most musicians are their own worst enemies.

The successful musicians understand that they are entertainers. I've never figured out what the others think they're doing.

It's not unreasonable for a restaurant or a venue to offer stage time without pay. After all, you can just say no. But if interested it would be reasonable for the musician to negotiate for things of value - a free meal, have a poster with business cards in the lobby, keep all the tips, and sell and keep all merch etc.

A stage and a crowd is a source of potential value to the right entertainer. Exposure is worthless to someone who isn't entertaining - nothing will come of it.

Lots of professions build their business by doing things for "free." Massage therapists do free backrubs at fairs, government contractors write expensive, elaborate proposals for free in hopes of winning new contracts, estate planners give free speeches at civic groups to gain new clients, etc etc. None of these people think about these activities as working for free, but rather as opportunities to gain new business. "Try me, you'll like me" has got to be one of the oldest sales techniques around.

From the comments in this and other threads, I gather that playing your music "for free" isn't leading to paying gigs or better opportunities. Have you sat down like a business professional to figure out why? First off don't speculate that people don't go out to hear live music anymore. Concert ticket sales revenue in North America was about $1 Billion in 1990 and $6 Billion in 2014. In real dollars that about 3 times bigger today than 24 years earlier.

Have you considered that your musical "act" really isn't very entertaining? Do you look good on stage, have any sex appeal (yes I can hear the laughter as I type this), really put yourself out there as a musical artist? Do you sound really, really good? Have you figured out how to sound really, really good in any venue, regardless of the sound guy or system? I've booked bands for several years for several annual festivals and I'm amazed at how the more successful bands manage to sound great on the same stage, same sound system, same sound engineer where other bands just don't. Do you build a rapport with audience, know how to entertain, amuse and inform the audience, get them dancing if appropriate, get them singing along if appropriate? Do you attract an audience? Do you hold on to an audience? In short, are you able to do the things that your customer (the person who hired you) values?

If the answer to these questions is yes then many opportunities to play "for free" are going to be opportunities to get more paying gigs.

Just my thoughts.

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