Tunings and intonation

Søren Stevnsgaard · Post by **Søren Stevnsgaard** » 7 Jun 2015 10:39 am

Hi

I know this topic has been discussed quite in the past, but Im still in the need of advice on this. I've just upgraded my Stage One to a second hand WBS custom, and Im very excited with it. It sounds as good as I hoped in any way. But, it also showed me how bad I am at intonating, and how important it is to find the right tuning.

On the Stage One I used Petersons sweetened tuning that i programmed on my cleartune app, but practising for a studio recording, I experienced some challenges with intonation. I then tried just-intonation: http://www.b0b.com/infoedu/just_e9.html and Hybrid: http://www.larrybell.org/id32.htm, but they just gave me other problems. I ended up using the hybrid for the recording, and then worked the bar around it. It worked ok, and I know that i won't find a 'perfect tuning'. But I wanna find a good basic tuning, and then learn to use that, and maybe do my own small changes to it.

Questions: What tuning do you use and why? And, what do you do to compensate? ie moving bar, or avoiding pedal combinations, or specific chords?

Thanks,

/Soren

Scott Duckworth · Post by **Scott Duckworth** » 7 Jun 2015 10:48 am

Buddy Emmons Tempered Tuning

http://www.buddyemmons.com/ttchart.htm

I tried all the rest, and they didn't work.

Lane Gray · Post by **Lane Gray** » 7 Jun 2015 11:44 am

If you're gonna record with other instruments, I recommend going closer to ET. Guitars, keys, fretted basses, most horns are all in ET.
Since I find ET thirds a tad jangly, I've gone to the following compromise: D#, E#, G# & C# all a mere 4 or 5 cents flat, everything else straight up.

Steve Lipsey · Post by **Steve Lipsey** » 7 Jun 2015 3:07 pm

I give a hearrty +1 to Lane's tuning....you will sound good with the band, and by yourself. It isn't "perfect", but neither is the world around us. It reduces the beats of chords by flatting thirds enough to sound good, but no so much that you sound bad with other instruments. And you can do it with a plain old boss TU-2 guitar tuner!! Just tune those thirds one light down from straight up...no programming, easy to see.

One mod I use is to NOT detune the C# that is string 5 with the C pedal - that typically is the root of a chord, not a third, and is better left straight up. Also, the E-F change should be flatter than the others (doesn't relaly matter how much) because it is a third to notes that are already flatted by the other adjustments, and so needs to go down a bit beyond them.

This method sounds great and it isn't critical at all to get the detuned notes exactly down by a specific amount - you won't hear it if they are off by a bit. The goal for the thirds is just to reduce the beats, not to be exactly in tune iwth anything...

This method was incredibly liberating, and sounds great with the band...what more could you ask?

Note that I'm not criticizing in any way the more complicated JI tunings - I'm just saying that this works for me and for others, and may be worth giving it a try...tuning is a very personal thing with this crazy instrument...

chris ivey · Post by **chris ivey** » 7 Jun 2015 3:20 pm

one thing you can try which worked for me is going the style of the newman chart but bringing all the offsets back in as close as you can stand. so your sharped and flatted settings are still fairly close to 440 or whatever you use as a center point.
the e to f raise is noticeably the flattest.

Søren Stevnsgaard · Post by **Søren Stevnsgaard** » 8 Jun 2015 9:31 am

Thanks. I'll give them a go.

Cheers,

/SÃ¸ren

James Holland · Post by **James Holland** » 8 Jun 2015 2:00 pm

I'm new, but I'm definitely a fan of the Emmons tempering, or something close to it. To me, one of the defining characters of pedal steel are the perfect thirds and fifths. Dont fiddles and vocals use perfect thirds and fifths? I tried equal temperament and I thought it sounded awful?

Lane Gray · Post by **Lane Gray** » 8 Jun 2015 2:04 pm

Vocals, fiddles, trombones and steel guitars CAN do JI thirds.
BUT if there are keys and fretted instruments around, they might not want to. Competing thirds can clash. Remember that guitars often play SHARP thirds, since oversqueezing the strings will sharp them.

Donny Hinson · Post by **Donny Hinson** » 8 Jun 2015 4:03 pm

I tune JI, and don't try to "sweeten" anything. If there are a few intervals and chords that don't sound good, then I just don't play them...or I substitute something simpler that is in tune.

The world isn't going to end (and I'm not going to get fired) if I can't play a 7-note chord, like a minor 11th, in perfect tune.

Ask Kjaergaard · Post by **Ask Kjaergaard** » 9 Jun 2015 9:31 am

Steve, you mentioned using a Boss TU-2 tuner, and I would like to do the same, using the tuning that Lane and yourself describe. But how many cents is one light on a Boss TU-2?

I am currently using a TU-3, which has more lights than the TU-2... so how many cents is one light on the TU-3?

I found no answer in the owners manual...

Ian Rae · Post by **Ian Rae** » 9 Jun 2015 11:24 am

Donny Hinson wrote:I tune JI, and don't try to "sweeten" anything. If there are a few intervals and chords that don't sound good, then I just don't play them...

Thank you Donny - that's heartening. I tune my U12 in JI because natural intervals are what attracted me to the steel, and ET is what repels me from the piano. As a consequence my 7th string is too sharp to use as the root of F#m - but there are plenty of other minors. String 5 has two C# raises - one for pedal A to give the A/B chord and one for P7 which is slightly sharper to match string 7. I love the sound I'm getting. I did tune to ET once as an experiment, but only once.

Lane Gray · Post by **Lane Gray** » 9 Jun 2015 11:43 am

Ask, if you are a smartphone user, there are plenty of free tuner apps (if you have an 1/4" to 3.5mm adapter, you can plug the steel into the mic input of your computer, and there are both Windows and Mac tuner apps).
You could also try tuning the E major chord by ear and checking how flat the 6th and third strings are (if you tune til it sounds the sweetest, it'll be 8 cents flat), and tune the E#, G#, D# and C# to HALF that flat.
I'm not familiar with the tuners you have.

Ask Kjaergaard · Post by **Ask Kjaergaard** » 9 Jun 2015 12:19 pm

Thanks, Lane. I will try your advice.

As for the Boss tuner/cent issue, perhaps Steve Lipsey could clarify this, as he uses the TU-2?

Michael Coggins · Post by **Michael Coggins** » 9 Jun 2015 12:37 pm

Ask Kjaergaard wrote:Steve, you mentioned using a Boss TU-2 tuner, and I would like to do the same, using the tuning that Lane and yourself describe. But how many cents is one light on a Boss TU-2?

I am currently using a TU-3, which has more lights than the TU-2... so how many cents is one light on the TU-3?

I found no answer in the owners manual...

Just checked my TU-3 against my Seiko cent tuner...
1 light = 5 cent
2 lights = 10 cent etc

Ask Kjaergaard · Post by **Ask Kjaergaard** » 9 Jun 2015 11:39 pm

Thanks, Michael. Very good to know!

Steve Lipsey · Post by **Steve Lipsey** » 10 Jun 2015 9:37 am

Ask-
I use 1 light down from in-tune on the TU-2 and use the pair of lights lit just below the green in-tune light on the TU-3. I actually use the TU-3 mostly.

So i guess I'm using about 7 cents down. That seems to balance reducing the audible beats in a chord as much as I can while still being in tune with guitars in band....you can pick your own comfort level on this.

I leave the tuner plugged in to the volume pedal tuner out and always on - easy to quickly check tuning in between songs....and the big lights on the Boss are easy to see, don't have to look for a needle and figure out where it is on a scale...plus the TU-3 has a nice "superbright" mode which is great when playing outside in a sunny place...

I really use A+F and other "difficult" chord forms a lot, which this tuning completely allows, because it isn't looking for perfection in other forms....especially where "perfection" is out of tune with the guitars in the band...there are lots of ways to think about tuning, Lane's way lets me sound fine and play with the band and use all the lever/pedal combos, although you can hear the "imperfections" if you play by yourself and listen for them....just like a 6-string guitar now sounds really out of tune to me now, since I've learned to hear the beats in the chords....but that is the way the world tunes, so I just go with it...(for the A+F change, remember to tune the E->F raise another set of lights down to make it work as a third with the notes that are already tuned down)

Sid Hudson · Post by **Sid Hudson** » 10 Jun 2015 1:40 pm

Buddy once told me, anytime he plays with a piano he tunes his C neck every string to 440 straight up.

He cautioned me. "It will sound out of tune when you play by yourself but when playing with the Piano it will sound really good in Tune".

I shouldn't need to tell you, he was right!

Ian Rae · Post by **Ian Rae** » 11 Jun 2015 12:13 am

How satisfying it is to the scientific mind when theory is borne out in practice!

Bob Russell · Post by **Bob Russell** » 11 Jun 2015 5:50 am

Ian Rae wrote:How satisfying it is to the scientific mind when theory is borne out in practice!

Ask Kjaergaard · Post by **Ask Kjaergaard** » 11 Jun 2015 7:09 am

Steve, I like the simplicity of this tuning method, and is definitely going to experiment with it.

Do you also use this method on the C6 neck? If so, what notes/strings do you adjust?

Steve Lipsey · Post by **Steve Lipsey** » 11 Jun 2015 7:21 am

I don't play C6- you can use the theory behind this method to give it a try... Or maybe Lane has some advice....

Lane Gray · Post by **Lane Gray** » 11 Jun 2015 12:41 pm

For C6, I use the same mental approach. Flat the tones most often used as thirds 4 cents.
A, B, C#, F# and E.

Kevin Hatton · Post by **Kevin Hatton** » 11 Jun 2015 2:56 pm

Learning to play a steel guitar in tune is an art. Some people just don't have the ears for it and will never get it. Being in tune doesn't men that you can play a steel guitar in tune. I've seen master players play wildly out of tune steels at outdoor concerts in tune with bar adjustments. It's an instinct. It took me years and some advice from master players to understand this. This borders on something that can't be taught. It's like Zen.

Ian Rae · Post by **Ian Rae** » 11 Jun 2015 10:56 pm

Or trombone.

Clete Ritta · Post by **Clete Ritta** » 12 Jun 2015 3:23 am

Steve Lipsey wrote:...tune those thirds one light down from straight up...

I often play along with a Roland digital keyboard in ET. I check my tuning on E9 open strings with a Boss TU-2 just like that too. Everything green (straight) but strings 3 and 6 one red light left of center (sweetened flat).

The pedals and levers rarely need adjusting. I tuned them by ear so it sounds good. Similar to the Emmons chart by the looks of it but never checked exact cents.

Lane Gray wrote:...most horns are all in ET...

I thought horns were closer to JI. Don't they play natural overtones of the harmonic series?

SÃ¸ren Stevnsgaard wrote:...what do you do to compensate? ie moving bar, or avoiding pedal combinations, or specific chords?...

All pedal/lever combinations are valid. The chords produced are where you will discover what works and what does not with each combination. For instance, when using A/F pedal/lever combo with your major chord grips, it sometimes sounds more in tune by positioning the bar slightly towards the left side of the fret instead of directly over it. This is an example of a compensation for tuning.