Steel Players- If I only had the evidence?

Mike Perlowin · Post by **Mike Perlowin** » 18 Dec 2012 2:14 am

Both my former chamber music trio (which is reuniting next month for another concert) and my current chamber music quintet which is still in in its infancy, have members who cannot travel. People who work, mothers with very young children, and in one case somebody whose mother is 99 years old, and requires constant care. I can't even bring these people to Phoenix, let alone New York or Chicago.

Speaking for myself, I would want any event in which I was expected to play classical music held in Los Angeles.

Franklin · Post by **Franklin** » 18 Dec 2012 6:51 am

Barry Blackwood wrote:
So again, please Barry, don't quit the club!
Not to worry, I like it all. The ISGC has a Jazz Room does it not, and doesn't that serve the purpose here? Maybe we should rename it the Alternative Room to cover all the bases. Having an entire separate convention for 'non-country' players seems over the top and exclusionary.

Jonathan,

I agree with Barry and organizing alternative steel shows is pointless to what I hoped this thread would lead towards......Unless you hear players in real jam sessions with their favorite rhythm section guys responding and inspiring each other for sometimes hours on end and not playing a 30 minute performance set to the choir... You'll never really hear from them what I have emphasized here.

Now have you ever heard anyone play the alternating finger harmonics and solo improv's like we hear in the style of Lenny Breau on steel guitar? When Lenny moved to Nashville he played a lot of solo gigs.......Mike Smith was smitten with this approach along with how Lenny used harmonics in his playing that Mike instantly started putting in the study time to adapt this approach to his playing........ Mike can improvise through many chordal passages using the Lenny style harmonics mixed with comping bass lines underneath lead lines (very classical sounding at times) in solo form. Basically doing as Lenny did, playing anything and everything that pops into his mind because this approach frees him from the confines of a rhythm section.....

Have you ever heard Tommy White's reharmonization of songs Country or otherwise on the C6th......Tommy is so well studied in keyboard sounding voices and virtually every known style of steel guitar that his playing turns my head every time.....What I love about Tommy is his ability to improvise within everyones style and yet take it to his own place.....Tommy's C6th abilities are nothing short of genius.

Paul

Tommy White · Post by **Tommy White** » 18 Dec 2012 7:33 am

Dear Paul,
Goodness you're an early riser! Thank you so much for all the nice things you say. The respect and admiration I have for you and your immense contribution to the instrument is enormous. You have inspired and taught so many of us so much through the years.
The one thing in this entire thread that really struck a note with me is your saying something to the effect that playing steel guitar and music is a process and that you're still learning. How humbling.
I feel the same. I'm in over 40 years with the instrument and still learning. We have had the privilages and opportunities to play every genre of music with the very best musicians in the world. Like you, Buddy Emmons, Maurice Anderson and few others, from the beginning, it never occurred to me to think of pedal steel as a "country instrument" ,as I'm sure you will agree by evidence of your playing and resume. In regards to the title of this thread, I think you do have the evidence. It's you!

Reece Anderson · Post by **Reece Anderson** » 18 Dec 2012 11:17 am

Paul.....great thread, very intellectual, and could only have been written by someone like yourself who has an exceptional and unique musical insight perceived after vast and varied experience over many years.

I'm humbled and appreciative of the kind words from Tommy and yourself, both of whom I greatly admire personally and musically.

Fortunately for me, I have the privilege of considering both of you my long time dear friends, and just as importantly I know you to each to be men of integrity, character, and high morals.

I apologize if I strayed slightly off topic, but I thought it to be important to emphasise, that there are those of us who appreciate the person as well as their musical achievements and ability. Those who have both, are the most memorable to me.

Jake Hoffman · Post by **Jake Hoffman** » 18 Dec 2012 1:23 pm

Best post on the forum so far. This kind of discussion is what makes this medium so valuable.

I will now violate one of my sacred axioms: "Silence can be misinterpreted, but never misquoted."

For me, some of the most valuable and effective advice about practice and improvisation has come from sources that may have never heard a steel guitar. For example, Bud Herseth, principle trumpet with the Chicago Symphony for over 50 years (now retired) said "Practice like you mean it. Don't hold back. Pretend it's Saturday night at Symphony Hall. If you don't you'll be sorry when it IS Saturday night."

And this, from the great jazz pianist, Gene Harris (now deceased): "If you can immediately explain what you just played, you are not at the edge yet."

Stuart Legg · Post by **Stuart Legg** » 18 Dec 2012 2:52 pm

I bet a lot of folks who read this topic would not know that Lenny Breau played guitar not PSG (and there is not a thing wrong with that) and this to me is the point of this topic not whether or not Buddy was a great Jazz player.

Besides we are speaking here of a select few musicians who when jamming within their own little circle can achieve the ultimate in playing ( supposedly ) out of the box and hinting that playing Jazz is playing out of the box.

That has a certain smugness about it but I suppose they’ve earned that privilege.
However I don’t feel (and I think Paul would agree) Buddy needed that shield tacked on his wall to cement his credentials.

Each of us are confined to the size of our own little skill box.
Most have a very small skill box only have room for the words and melody of a song.
Others can hear the chords and on and on. Some folks have skill and other folks have knowledge and it seems that most deny they have both.

What I’m saying here is we don’t really play out of our box we only expand the skill box.

For some over the years that box has become larger than a semi trailer.

We can think out of the box but we can’t play out of our skill box we can only expand it.

I can though expand my knowledge to the point that I can think out of my little skill box and understand your semi trailer size skill box.

I'm sure we all know that we don't think folks were putting us average Joes down or calling us stupid because we wrote something about how the old guys couldn’t and the new guys can and I'm sure we all know that you folks don't think Bo and I were saying that jazz musicians are smug and arrogant.

Jake Hoffman · Post by **Jake Hoffman** » 18 Dec 2012 2:52 pm

So, I now have violated one of my own pet peeves, too: the misuse of the words "principle" and "principal". Mr Herseth was principal trumpet, not principle trumpet.

Murnel Babineaux · Post by **Murnel Babineaux** » 18 Dec 2012 3:11 pm

And this, from the great jazz pianist, Gene Harris (now deceased): "If you can immediately explain what you just played, you are not at the edge yet."[/quote]

I must have fallen off of the edge long ago.

Murnel

Franklin · Post by **Franklin** » 19 Dec 2012 12:41 am

Reece,

Thanks for allowing me to set in with you in music way beyond my scope. Those DJ convention jams, sitting beside you and Julian back in the late 60's, hearing the impossible coming through your speakers inspired me more than I can ever put into words.....Also thanks for playing Jazz the way you do. Your first album with "Body and Soul" is one of the four LP's that I reference as the "cornerstones of modern steel guitar." Its one thing to meet your musical heroes but when you can call them a dear friend, thats sweet.

Tommy,

Thanks for your friendship throughout the years.....I met you 40 years ago when you were I believe 13....Looking back at those DJ convention years, I'm not sure I realized the depth of what we witnessed, as I do now. Getting to see Jernigan, Buddy, Reece, and Chalker in the same time period that they released their legendary LP's was amazing. Hearing them on fire was like having Zeus throw lightning bolts at anyone who came near them. I know for certain it was their fire that inspired me. As a beginning musician what I heard and saw was a life changing experience....I believe your playing will be studied for generations to come because you have truly mastered the instrument.

Buck,

You may have moved here later than some but you certainly came here with the goods. I don't know if I ever told you this story...... Your good friend Jimmy Crawford asked me if I had ever heard you play?......I said "once with John Anderson" and he followed up saying, "No, that's not what I mean, you've got to hear this kid really play" and he preceded to tell me about what all you were into. Later, A few years back as you were tuning up at some club in the alley I heard you run through some nice Jazz lines and I knew Jimmy had described your talent correctly. He certainly loved you and your playing....I thoroughly enjoyed hearing your playing on the CD and look forward to many more years of listening to whatever you choose to record....

Stuart,

"Expanding the box" was the perfect analogy........In my overly worded descriptions of these great players, I really just want to point out that these guys are so great because their desire has been to advance their musicianship, not just about learning country or commercial music.....

Paul

Jonathan Slyker · Post by **Jonathan Slyker** » 19 Dec 2012 7:29 am

Mr. Franklin, thank you for your thoughtful comments. Before responding to your discussion about Tommy White, I wanted to go back to your original post and respond to it, rather than to the flurry of comments to that post:

"Quincy Jones was instrumental in signing [Buddy] yet he never lived in Quincy's Jazz world or pursued the NYC Jazz scene. I believe if he had moved to NYC and pursued a Jazz career he would have been invited to record with countless Jazz legends because of his musicianship and his voice on this beautiful instrument."

I know that there are the on the forum who disparage New York City, etc.. Fred Rose, of Rose-Acuff, Hank Williams' manager, had worked and luived in Chicago, New York, and Hollywood before moving to Nashville and signing Williams. Hank Williams' first hit, Lovesick Blues, was a Tin Pan Alley tune.

"If you want it done right, do it yourself. " Those of us living in the major media centers and involved in the jazz scene or music performance scene need to keep our eyes and ears open for any possible opportunity to book one of the living greats (present company not excepted) into a gig worthy of his stature. To put it concretely, when is Tommy White coming to Birdland or the Blue Note?

Bud Angelotti · Post by **Bud Angelotti** » 19 Dec 2012 9:08 am

Jon - The good folks at the Blue Note are in their box. The common perception of steel guitar is country, not jazz. As you know, the BN is a jazz club. Yes we know better, but to the general public, steel guitar is for country.

Tommy White · Post by **Tommy White** » 19 Dec 2012 9:55 am

Jonathon, I've been invited to play Birdland with Bucky, John and Martin Pizzarelli through the years, especially after our New York sessions for Arbor records. Unfortunately, scheduling conflicts prevented it.

Reece Anderson · Post by **Reece Anderson** » 19 Dec 2012 2:25 pm

I wish it were possible for all steel players to have experienced the late 60’s and early 70’s when MSA would attend the DJ convention at the Andrew Jackson Hotel in Nashville.

There were well known steel players playing in rooms throughout the hotel, and we played jam sessions early in the morning, until early in the morning. Every steel player was exploring and pushing their personal limits, and was totally relaxed because we were so tired from playing hours at a time, while completely wearing out the drummers and other musicians.

I was always impressed and appreciative of ALL the steel players, because each appreciated what the other was doing. I never once experienced an ego nor a competitive spirit from any player. We just all had fun and enjoyed each other. When we made a mistake while “stretching musically”, you can only imagine how much fun we had with that.

I had a very memorable day when after playing about a 4 hour set in the MSA room, I finally gave out and said, I have to get something to eat. An hour or so later when I returned there was no music being played in the MSA room, and I saw musicians just sitting behind their instruments and talking. I noticed a guitar player I didn’t recognize and who was not there before I left.

What I didn’t know, was that the guitar player came in our room just after I left and completely blew everyone away. They then thought how funny it would be were I to sit down and play with him not knowing of his enormous talent. So when they spotted me getting off the elevator they quieted the room before I walked in.

As I entered the room, everyone started saying, come on Reece, it’s time to play again. So…. I somewhat reluctantly ambled over to my guitar, sat down next to the guitar player and said, what kind of music do you want to play, to which he said, whatever you want to play. I then said, do you want to start with jazz, and he replied that would be fine. I then said how about “Green Dolphin Street” and he said, I'll follow you.

I played the head and then played it though about 4 times, then turned to the guitar player and nodded for him to play……..what happened next caused the room to explode with laughter, because the expression on my face had to have been priceless when the great Lenny Breau started playing. My jaw hit the floor with a thud, and at the same time I flung my picks off and dropped my bar. He was so far over my head I felt like a rank beginner, and it was then I suddenly realized,…….I had…... “been had”.

Just one of many stories that could be told by anyone who was fortunate enough to be there in that era.

Mike Neer · Post by **Mike Neer** » 19 Dec 2012 5:19 pm

What a treat that must have been, Reece. It's an honor to get taken to school by Lennie Breau.

Buck Reid · Post by **Buck Reid** » 19 Dec 2012 6:43 pm

Paul... I thank you for your kind words, you are a true gentleman. Also thanks for sharing Jimmie's story... I respected him alot and he taught me alot. Sure do miss him.

Reece... what a great Lenny Breau story! Really enjoyed that, thanks for sharing.

Bryant Aycock · Post by **Bryant Aycock** » 19 Dec 2012 7:37 pm

Paul, Too many times the "Big Boys" of steel guitar distance themselves from the forum. As one of the
"little guys", I'd like to thank you and Tommy for your input and participation.

Sid Hudson · Post by **Sid Hudson** » 19 Dec 2012 7:40 pm

Odell Martin introduced me to Lenny Breau when I was 17 years old. During our conversation I asked Lenny what advice he could offer to a young aspiring guitar player.

He replied, “make an audio library of everything you ever learn and review it frequently.”

From that day to this (47 years) I have done so.

It has allowed me to remember things that would have long been forgotten.

Zane King · Post by **Zane King** » 20 Dec 2012 5:13 am

Paul, I don't need the evidence! You are correct! I know you did not try to create an exhaustive list of giant players and nor will I but I would like to add a few that I also encountered. Julian Tharpe, Zane Beck, Maurice Anderson. All 3 of these guys were doing very unique stylings years ago that many still today try to copy. Also another recent mind blowing player is Dave Easley. It's obvious this fellow is a jazz musician who just happens to use a steel guitar. There are so many others and by all means I will not try to list them. I guess it can easily be stated that Pedal Steel Guitar has surely not lacked in talented musicians developing their skills behind this fairly new instrument to our world.

ZK

kevin ryan · Post by **kevin ryan** » 20 Dec 2012 8:27 am

I remember many years ago I heard that Paul was to be playing at the Del Mar fair with Mel Tillis. I got there early and snuck into the grand stand area. I'll never forget this, Paul was the only one on the stage practicing through that huge sound system for 40 minutes. He was playing these cascading chromatics on the E9th neck and it changed my musical life forever. I'd had been playing for years but that day I became a student of music. The thoughtful facility that Buddy, Mike Smith, Tommy, Paul, Reece, Buck, Travis Etc.. play with inspires me to dig deeper. I actually had guitar lessons with George Van Epps after that and he opened my mind with his loving harmonic approach... Here in San Diego we have my friend and mentor, the great Rick Schmidt who is constantly challenging us to take this instrument further.. Check out his playing with the Joni Mitchell tribute band here... So cool.. Thanks for this great thread.

Cal Sharp · Post by **Cal Sharp** » 20 Dec 2012 9:28 am

I drove down to Nashville in the late 60's and walked up and down outside the clubs on Broadway, listening to the steel guitars from the sidewalk. Being underage, I was a-scairt to try to go into a bar 300 miles away from home, but the temptation was almost overpowering; I'd never seen a live steel guitar player, but I caught some glimpses through the door at the Den and Merchant's.

I came back a few years later, of age, and got tossed out of the Wheel because I happened to be standing next to a drunk who was raising hell. Not to be deterred, I spent a good part of my life during the rest of the 70's and 80's on Broadway and at some of the hotels watching Buddy, Jimmy, Curly, Julian, Paul and some of the other monsters play some amazing stuff. I even got to participate once in a while.

My Dad always had Al Hirt, Harry James and Louie Armstrong on the record player at home, and later I got into Miles, Bird and Trane. I don't think it ever crossed my mind that what I was hearing in Nashville wasn't jazz, or "out of the box". "Billie's Bounce" and "C-Jam Blues" were popular numbers, and it sounded like jazz to me.

I don't have any evidence, but I am an ear witness. I sure miss those days.

Mike Neer · Post by **Mike Neer** » 20 Dec 2012 10:10 am

kevin ryan wrote:I remember many years ago I heard that Paul was to be playing at the Del Mar fair with Mel Tillis. I got there early and snuck into the grand stand area. I'll never forget this, Paul was the only one on the stage practicing through that huge sound system for 40 minutes. He was playing these cascading chromatics on the E9th neck and it changed my musical life forever. I'd had been playing for years but that day I became a student of music. The thoughtful facility that Buddy, Mike Smith, Tommy, Paul, Reece, Buck, Travis Etc.. play with inspires me to dig deeper. I actually had guitar lessons with George Van Epps after that and he opened my mind with his loving harmonic approach... Here in San Diego we have my friend and mentor, the great Rick Schmidt who is constantly challenging us to take this instrument further.. Check out his playing with the Joni Mitchell tribute band here... So cool.. Thanks for this great thread.

Rick Schmidt is a bad boy, indeed!

I love George Van Eps. He was a hero of mine for a long time.

Clete Ritta · Post by **Clete Ritta** » 20 Dec 2012 2:14 pm

Bud Angelotti wrote:...The common perception of steel guitar is country, not jazz...Yes we know better, but to the general public, steel guitar is for country.

This is due to the fact that common, or general perceptions are musically limited, not the instrument itself.

Jazz is not a popular genre. Country music is. Most folks will associate steel with country because they've heard it before in that context, and it is a familiar sound. Most folks dont listen to jazz and therefore, most folks have probably never heard steel in a jazz context either. Thats their loss.

I think that jazz is probably the one form of music which challenges a players boundaries further "outside of the box" more than any other. The level of improvisation and experimentation is raised to its highest degree. It is a natural departure for those who have reached the end of their formulaic "box" and wish to continue expanding their musical horizons.

Clete

Mike Neer · Post by **Mike Neer** » 20 Dec 2012 4:26 pm

Susan Alcorn is the most incredible player and proponent of out-of-the-box playing of the steel guitar I've ever heard. I'm constantly inspired by her. She is one of the greatest improviser's this instrument has ever known.

Elton Smith · Post by **Elton Smith** » 20 Dec 2012 7:42 pm

Hell of a thread .Only musicans can understand the depth of what you are talking about.Seems to me yall need to set up a jam with each other.We all sometimes have to play with musicans that can't reach the mark of what we would like to play.Jazz seems to be musicans music or so it was told to me many years ago.We must play for the regular people that don't have a clue what we even do ,much less understand it.I can only play as well as whom I am playing with.Why don't the best of the best sit down and record some things,so we can learn from yall?If yall have reached the end of the internet with the steel guitar,then pick up a damn banjo.Maybe Mike will learn something.

Lyle Bradford · Post by **Lyle Bradford** » 20 Dec 2012 9:48 pm

Is Jazz still a product that sells or are they shut out by the industry as is what we call true country music. By far some of the most interesting reading I have seen in a long time. Just makes one wonder where is the steel really going to end up in the whole scheme of things. If one is not pursuing their own musical desires how can our instrument grow in other genres of music.

The Steel Guitar Forum

Steel Players- If I only had the evidence?

Correction

Thanks!