Steel Players- If I only had the evidence?

Franklin · Post by **Franklin** » 15 Dec 2012 6:24 am

Since Youtube started I've seen clips of this one and that one tackling all types of music with the instrument...I think that's fantastic! I say keep 'em coming....One thing that jumps out at me are the comments made about those clips from other steel guitarists....I believe they assume a conclusion due to a lack of exposure to other players abilities outside the box......They always comment - "Now this guy is taking it out of the box" or he's the best at playing Jazz, Rock, Blues, Folk, Classical or whatever as if nobody else has been down that road. Those vocal conclusions are typically not countered out of respect for the guys on the clip of which I personally applaud. I believe this occurs largely because there are no videos from the jams in the 60's 70's and early 80's available, so drawing these conclusions is understandable. There are only a few videos and recordings of Art Tatum. Imagine if there was no documentation of his musical ability....We would think Oscar Peterson was the first guy playing at that technical and emotional level in that direction.

These are some players the community should hear or should have heard play outside the box in a true jam session, not a 30 minute set at a country based steel show...... Tommy White, Buck Reid, Hal Rugg, Buddy Emmons, Mike Smith, Gary Carter, Randy Reinhard, Terry Crisp, Chalker, Jernigan, Steve Palousek, Maurice Anderson, Tommy Morrell, Joaquin Murphy, Jim Murphy....etc.

So I'll start this off by talking about one of these players for a moment. I should also point out that I am just talking about one musical direction of the multiple directions Buddy could have taken had he chosen to considering his musical ability.

For about a year on every Monday night in the mid 70's at the "Pickin Parlor" there were infamous jazz jams hosted by Buddy Spicher.......I would love to show you guys a clip of what I heard Buddy and Lenny Breau play on some of those gigs. To date I have never heard Jazz played on a steel guitar any deeper or emotionally connected to the music than I did from Buddy in those settings......The accompanying rhythm section was always world class with either Larrie London or Kenny Malone on drums, Charles Dungy / Acoustic Bass, and Randy Goodrum / Piano.

Or what if someone could put up a clip of the jams between Hank Garland and Buddy..I've only heard about those...Buddy is famous not just because he recorded with Price and Ray Charles..Yet his name is always omitted along with the other names I mentioned on these out of the box threads....... When a steel guitarist at the technical and emotionally crisp level of a Buddy Emmon's plays through complicated progressions like Giant Steps or composes music, his improvisations actually reach the melodic and rhythmic level of a true Jazz great......I believe this is why after Pat Martino heard him play back in the 70's he asked Buddy to record with him.....That unfortunately never came about due to Buddy's career decisions. But the offer coming from one of the strongest melodic voices in Jazz guitar history says it all. Had Buddy chosen to pursue a solo Jazz career, or rock, pop, whatever I personally believe he would be far more accepted in that world than anyone trying today.......For proof of such a bold statement, Look at how much he accomplished in all fields of music including Jazz while becoming more famous as a Country player....Quincy Jones was instrumental in signing him yet he never lived in Quincy's Jazz world or pursued the NYC Jazz scene. I believe if he had moved to NYC and pursued a Jazz career he would have been invited to record with countless Jazz legends because of his musicianship and his voice on this beautiful instrument.....

There is something mystical about a man who improvises in a manner that has students of the instrument and "Other" musicians dissecting his solos to grab bits here and there which are repeated by others until they become "traditional cliches"........That is the mark of a truly great musician. Buddy is musically famous because of that fact, not just because he also played many legendary country steel parts......

.....Oh what I'd give to introduce you through youtube to some amazing talent I personally witnessed over the years from so many great musicians who happen to play a steel guitar......

Paul

Sid Hudson · Post by **Sid Hudson** » 15 Dec 2012 6:53 am

Paul,

That was very well said my friend.

I smiled when I read your commentary because I to have wished 200 times I had a video of a certain jam to share with others.

I am very grateful that I came up in the musical era that you have made reference to.
Reinhart, Emmons, Breau, Jimmy Bryant, Bucky Barrett, Big Murf, Thumbs Carlyle at the Demon’s Den on Broadway in the 70s.

Wouldn’t do much good to write a book. You couldn’t put that into words. You either saw it or you didn’t.

Sid

Charles Curtis · Post by **Charles Curtis** » 15 Dec 2012 6:58 am

Paul, I'd like to see more "You Tube" videos of the greats also; in particular Randy Reinhard. I don't know just how many times I've watched you do "Coal Train Boogie", and I really enjoy any video that you are on. And the same with Tommy White and the rest. I don't know what all is involved in getting a "You Tube" video uploaded with permission of the artist, etc. Look at the number of views that "David Hartley" gets with his; it's fantastic. Hopefully the "powers that be" will pursue these endeavors and we will all benefit, and I hope real soon, 'cause I ain't getting any younger.

Sam White R.I.P. · Post by **Sam White R.I.P.** » 15 Dec 2012 7:55 am

Paul like Sid said you did a great job on your thread.I go on steeling on the Web a lot and listen to all the great steel Guitar players and David Hartley does a great job on there.I check out songs that I like and I sit here and try to follow along on my Steel Guitar.Micky Adams is a great guy for putting on the Video's where he shows you what to do. I have been learning a lot that way.I had tryed Tab work a long time ago but was not able to do it. Now after 14 years I got where I can look at the Tab and play it as I can look at it and then the Steel as I got use to where I'm going.I would have to say I'm doing better in the past 2 months that I have in 14 years.
Sam White

Mike Perlowin RIP · Post by **Mike Perlowin RIP** » 15 Dec 2012 8:32 am

Paul, you mentioned "These are some players the community should hear or should have heard play outside the box in a true jam session, not a 30 minute set at a country based steel show......"

The late Jack Lox took a different approach when he produced his shows. Instead of a variety of artists playing for half an hour, all his shows featured one artist, playing all afternoon. Buddy Emmons, (with Phil Baugh,) Jimmy Day, Curly Chalker, Doug Jernigan (with Al Bruno.)

Watching these guys stretch out for a couple of hours was very different from seeing them play short sets, where they had to get off the stage just as they were getting warmed up and the juices started flowing.

It's nice to be able to see all our heroes in one place. But It was also nice to hear each of these artists play for the entire day. I think the Chalker concert was the best steel guitar show I've ever seen.

BTW, all these shows were videotaped, and all the tapes were lost when Jack passed away. Only the Chalker footage survived.

Dan Galysh · Post by **Dan Galysh** » 15 Dec 2012 9:11 am

I was fortunate enough to be able to catch a few of these jam sessions in their latter years in the early '80s. My dad would drive down to the DJ Conventions and there would be many a late-night jam going on at one of the the Opryland Hotel banquet rooms or downtown at one of the hotels-sometimes going on until 4 in the morning. It was an education hearing Buddy, Paul, Terry, Gary and others stretching out. I wish that those just discovering Gary Carter today on YouTube could have heard him 30 years ago at these jam sessions. I really miss those days.

I don't have any video evidence, but I do have some cassette recordings stored away.

Bud Angelotti · Post by **Bud Angelotti** » 15 Dec 2012 9:20 am

Yes Paul, These players of which you speak have certainly set the bar real high for the rest of us! Feel free to disagree, but it's been my understanding that alot of he "country" music of the late 50's, early 60's was very "jazz" influenced. Kinda like the way nowadays "country" music is very influenced be 70's rock. To my way of thinking, a song like "Crazy", is more a jazz chart than a country song. Of course the version we are all most familiar with was done by a great country artist. The "country" music of that 50s - 60's era just had more of a jazz feel, at least to me. Absence of distorted guitars helps, not to rag on the rockers. Also, it seems to me, there was more theory involved in early lessons. When I got my first guitar, around '71, I didn't want to study theory. I just wanted to rock! I wouldn't think any of those players you mentioned grew up wanting to play 'stairway to Heaven". But thats just me. I could be way off base.

frank rogers · Post by **frank rogers** » 15 Dec 2012 9:21 am

I would add to what's already been said with my personal experience of watching and listening to Buddy and Bryant together on several occasions. Life-Changing, is almost an understatement with regard to those experiences for me personally. Simply brilliant and masterful playing by both of these legends with a bit of friendly competition and quoting throughout those performances, not to mention the genius,technique, style, and soul, each of these legends possessed. I have to say I was equally moved by the combination of J.B. and Julian Tharpe too. Simply amazing!

Mike Neer · Post by **Mike Neer** » 15 Dec 2012 9:26 am

One of my favorite steel guitar recordings is of Buddy playing Pat Martino's "Mardi Gras" at the ISGC. The other is Dave Easley's playing on Brian Blade's record. I love to hear steel in a more modern context than the swing that players usually choose, but the harmonic language is usually beyond what most players understand. I'm really hoping that changes. Jazz has really evolved over time and most steel players are still playing catch-up.

Gene Jones · Post by **Gene Jones** » 15 Dec 2012 10:10 am

Having learned to play in the late 1940's and the early 1950's, I can say that I was once solidly in agreement with the anti-pedal feelings of that era.

I was in the "no pedals" position of the western swing advocates that believed that pedals would be the end of the steel guitar....it was too hillbilly.

However, my anti-pedal bias ended suddenly one night at intermission when I heard the Juke-Box playing NightLife with Emmons backing Ray Price.

Pedals were no longer a gimmick, but were a milestone advancement in the development of the steel guitar.

Bob Hoffnar · Post by **Bob Hoffnar** » 15 Dec 2012 10:42 am

My impression is that whatever wild innovation I can come up with or run into in the avante world that I spend quite a bit of time in has already been done by Buddy Emmons. And he did it way better.

Ken Byng · Post by **Ken Byng** » 15 Dec 2012 12:39 pm

The biggest regret should be that modern portable audio visual recording camcorders weren't around 40 or 50 years ago. Lightweight digital camcorders are able to capture fairly reasonable quality recordings capable of being posted on YouTube nowadays.

I would have loved to have seen footage of Buddy jamming informally in his prime. No doubt, he is one of the most versatile musicians of the last hundred years on any instrument.

Michel Rose · Post by **Michel Rose** » 15 Dec 2012 1:43 pm

Humility stopped Paul from including himself in the list of players he mentioned . But i remember hearing him and Phil Baugh at the hall of fame hotel on my first trip to Nashville in 1984. There were some serious playing going on, the interplay was incredible.
I also bought a brand new Franklin from his dad that year.

David Mason · Post by **David Mason** » 15 Dec 2012 2:19 pm

The biggest regret should be that modern portable audio visual recording camcorders weren't around 40 or 50 years ago. Lightweight digital camcorders are able to capture fairly reasonable quality recordings capable of being posted on YouTube nowadays.

I would have loved to have seen footage of Buddy jamming informally in his prime. No doubt, he is one of the most versatile musicians of the last hundred years on any instrument.

There are enough threads about the lack of payment for musicians in the modern era I don't need to point any single one out. "Capable of being posted on YouTube" isn't the same as "should be posted on YouTube."

It's something for which no easy answer exists. One thing everyone notices is that the instructional material from "legends" usually dates from way before they reached their commercial peak, and certainly before they knew all they know, as great musicians are always chasing down something - it's what keeps them great. I think it would be fantastic if Buddy Emmons were to start teaching - now - or if Paul Franklin were to gin up a collection of video lessons on DVD - now. But knowing that such material would be on YouTube within months if not weeks, and knowing that as soon as they took down one it would pop up from another account - it'd be a waste of their effort, unless it was done with the express intent of giving it away. Double-edged sword, there.

Dickie Whitley · Post by **Dickie Whitley** » 15 Dec 2012 9:16 pm

David, I'm pretty much in agreement that a lot of people don't or won't respect copyrights and see nothing wrong with doing things like that.

It's especially bad for PSG because the scale of the market is already so small. I had thoughts the other day about someone picking up where Jeff Newman had left off, and continuing lessons along that line. But then as you noted, would it really be worth their effort?

It's really sad the rest of us are unable to to learn from the masters that are still with us because the return on investment isn't worth the risk.

Dylan Schorer · Post by **Dylan Schorer** » 15 Dec 2012 9:25 pm

That’s why it’s such a shame that some steel shows still maintain a strict “no video recording” policy. A few clips showing up on YouTube would cause more commercial benefit than harm to the show and player (I know there's plenty to debate on this topic), and would go a long way to help improve the poorly-documented history of this instrument.

As Paul suggest, the most experimental, innovative playing happens for tiny audiences at informal jams or steel shows rather than on commercial recordings. Most of these performances just disappear into the ether. Having some documentation is only going to open more ears, provide inspiration & fodder for new and old players, and keep the instrument moving forward.

Georg Sørtun · Post by **Georg Sørtun** » 16 Dec 2012 2:10 am

Dylan Schorer wrote:That’s why it’s such a shame that some steel shows still maintain a strict “no video recording” policy. A few clips showing up on YouTube would cause more commercial benefit than harm to the show and player ...

Agree 100%. It's a real problem trying to tell people that are not already "in", why they should visit these shows, as you can't really show them "what for". A bunch of pictures and names don't tell much unless you already know them.

No evidence, next to no show-up of new folks, and in the end no shows once the "in-crowd" has died out. That's what one gets for overprotecting ones interests, and the OP seems to have understood at least one part of the problem.

Ken Byng · Post by **Ken Byng** » 16 Dec 2012 2:26 am

There should be a record kept (where possible) for posterity sake of iconic performances. Yes, there are issues around copyright and this can be overcome. I have bought sub standard DVD recordings of steel shows in the past where the audio or visual quality leaves something to be desired, but it may be one's only chance to see a now deceased icon playing in a live situation. Tom Morrell is one person in question.

I might add that I would only buy such a DVD straight from a performer, and never a bootleg copy made without their consent.

Paul's comment about steel shows that are slanted towards Country is spot on. In Dallas in March I sat close to the front of the audience and watched a sublime performance of swing steel playing by the master, Maurice Anderson. There was a hot bunch of players on stage with him, including 2 or 3 guys on horns. Maurice was right on top of his game that afternoon, and I loved every minute of his performance. When he had finished his set, a guy behind me said loudly "That ain't country music, that's dogs**t music. Ah came here to hear steel playin' country, not jazzin't it". That sums it all up.

We have to open our ears and listen to people play what they do best and what they enjoy playing.

Finally, I would give anything to have a recording of that performance by Reece. It was just superb.

Hook Moore · Post by **Hook Moore** » 16 Dec 2012 4:18 am

Ron Scott · Post by **Ron Scott** » 16 Dec 2012 5:29 am

Thanks for bringing that to our attention Paul and who would know better than you who Buddy really was and what he could have been had he taken another direction in his musical career. We all really look up to him anyway for what we saw him do in the steelguitar world we followed and wish him the very best...Ron

Jack Stoner · Post by **Jack Stoner** » 16 Dec 2012 5:31 am

I was fortunate to have been at some late night jam sessions when I was in Nashville. There was no country or "corn" as it was called played. There wasn't a Buddy Emmons or any "big name" pickers there, mostly just road pickers but they were in a setting that allowed them to stretch out and do other things, such as jazz.

Franklin · Post by **Franklin** » 16 Dec 2012 5:32 am

Guys,

Let's post about the musical directions of the great players I mentioned and many, many more......So many of todays players assume because they have never heard these guys in a true Jazz, Rock, or whatever setting and only hear them play swing and country at steel shows that they need to play catch up as Mike Neer posted..(Not Picking On You)....But your comments about most steelers "catching up" is the type of pigeon holing presented here when it comes to playing music outside the box....That assumption is not your fault but its naive if you were applying that comment to the names I mentioned....

When I started coming to Nashville and after I moved here there was a jamming mentality.....We attended real jam sessions where pushing the boundaries was the goal....This high level musicianship with steel guitarists challenging their abilities through exploring and adapting themselves into the latest innovations in music happened long before Youtube and the internet existed.

I wish I could show everyone Jim Ed Brown's band jamming in Little Roy's store with two steels....Mike Smith, Hank Corwin, and guitarist Earl Erb were so well arranged it sounded like a big band. They were playing everything from the current Carpenters and Stevie Wonder songs to orchestrated compositions by Thelonius, Miles, and others.....I still remember seeing Jernigan and Gary Adams playing for hours on end, covering so many bags from Coltrane to Little Rock Getaway. Never heard more fire than those two locking horns.......Randy Beavers playing Joplin pieces sounding absolutely perfect for steel guitar...... Reinhard stylistically playing funk fusion like the ones found on the first Brecker Brothers CD at his private jams. Randy composed grooves and would call the changes as we played and you should have heard Mike Smith, Hal, and Randy playing those funk grooves in a Jazzy setting........I listened to the Troubador's rehearse with Jack Mollette and Buddy C....The song selection was very interesting to say the least.. ......Have you heard Tommy White play rock styles or emulate Eastern music sounds?.......Do you guys know that Travis Toy is a monster funk and Jazz player on E9th? That Wayne Dahl is probably one, if not the best, blues /rocker on the steel guitar? Or have you ever heard Terry Crisp playing Fusion Jazz? He was the first steeler I heard playing Yellow Jackets after they released their first LP in the early 80's. Russ Hicks with Barefoot Jerry....Need I say more about how good they sounded in the 70's.

I started this thread hoping to point out how the names I mentioned have always been driven to stay ahead of the curve through experimentation......Again lets not debate over steel shows and whether or not video taping should happen....There are plenty of threads about that topic.

There are also countless threads saying "what if someone did this?" Most of those posters are on track with the desire to expand themselves musically but most also do not realize decades ago the names I mentioned in the original post did experiment with the instrument at the same time music was being innovated in Jazz, Rock, Pop, or whatever...Its a good thing to do but its not a new direction for steel, it "is" however one of the best ways to advance your personal musicianship. The players names I mentioned and so many more having the ability to wear so many hats at the highest level is truly amazing and I felt it was worth pointing out since so many new guys believe these players are mostly Country and Swing players.

Paul

Mike Neer · Post by **Mike Neer** » 16 Dec 2012 6:42 am

Franklin wrote:Guys,

Let's post about the musical directions of the great players I mentioned and many, many more......So many of todays players assume because they have never heard these guys in a true Jazz, Rock, or whatever setting and only hear them play swing and country at steel shows that they need to play catch up as Mike Neer posted..(Not Picking On You)....But your comments about most steelers "catching up" is the type of pigeon holing presented here when it comes to playing music outside the box....That assumption is not your fault but its naive if you were applying that comment to the names I mentioned....

.....

Paul, I should have said "most other steel players", which is what I meant.

I also wanted to add that one thing I've learned after playing music for 40 years is that you can't underestimate what other players are capable of. I know that there have been many players, such as those you've mentioned plus others, who do have the vocabulary and harmonic prowess and that they have played jazz. You can hear it in Buddy Emmons' playing on Gentle On My Mind on the John Hartford record that he was a serious cat. It's even more difficult to play with all that chromaticism and make it sound "in" on a pop tune than it is on a jazz tune. That is his brilliance.

When you say that it's not breaking new ground to play jazz on the steel, I agree with you, but only to a point. For the most part, jazz has only been something that was played after hours or at jams. I was elated when I heard the recording you and Mike Smith did. I wish there were more of them. With the state of the music industry today, the time is ripe for musicians to forge their own paths and not have to worry about making a buck playing what producers want them to play. Of course, it's going to be mostly self-funded projects with little sales, but it is an opportunity for new ground to be broken conceptually and for the instrument as a feature.

I hope you understand my perspective and realize that I am not intending any of my comments to be put downs. Growing up in the NYC area I think I've been exposed to some of the greatest music ever made on a nightly basis, and I do have somewhat of a bias when it comes to the way I like to hear jazz. I'll admit to being extremely partial to music that others might call "out", as nothing thrills me more than to hear someone stretching it as far as it can go.

Jerry Jones · Post by **Jerry Jones** » 16 Dec 2012 7:10 am

Digging around in a box of old cassette tapes, I found one labeled "Lenny Breau, Buddy Emmons & Co. Live at the Old Time Pickin' Parlour." Now if I can just find my old cassette deck.

Franklin · Post by **Franklin** » 16 Dec 2012 7:52 am

Mike,

Thanks for the clarification.

Paul