Steel Players- If I only had the evidence?

[Buck Reid]

Paul... great post(s) and so well stated. I personally have always felt that I was born too late and missed so much of the many experiences like the ones you mention... some refer to it as the "golden era" and I would agree. However, when I first came to Nashville in 1983, I remember seeing you and Sid Hudson at the ole Hall Of Fame hotel lounge and I can tell you that what I saw and heard had a profound impact on me and was inspiring to say the least. As mentioned, there were others hanging around like Thumbs,Phil,Tommy Williams, Rob Hajacos(spelling?) and others. I'm happy that I did witness at least some of that... so great!

[Don Drummer]

This post brings to mind how I felt last week listening to the Real Jazz sattelite radio program. The theme was winners of some poll playing jazz on violin, harmonica, and various other not in the jazz box instruments. Of course that's as far as it went from my short time listening. My question is after all this time and all the great Jazz on Steel, how is it that this genre is so astoundinly unaware of the efforts and accomplishments of the players mentioned in the Pauls original post?

[Ray Harrison]

"Anything You Can Do, I Can Do Better".
This is what the steel should be saying to the guitar.
It has so many more capabilities than your standard six string Tele or Gibson.
In the Jazz sessions at the steel shows, you can hear some "new" approaches to applying the steel techniques. The classical selections being played show only a portion of the instruments range has been utilized.

[Barry Blackwood]

My question is after all this time and all the great Jazz on Steel, how is it that this genre is so astoundinly unaware of the efforts and accomplishments of the players mentioned in the Pauls original post?

Well put, Don. I have that same question..

[robert kramer]

All the steel players mentioned above are great innovative commercial players. I think one of the reasons they are is their ability to play “out of the box.” Even though their main gig is commercial country music they are able to use their background in jazz/swing/fusion/funk (and study of other instruments) to “push the envelope” while still staying country.

Who is more commercial than Buddy Emmons? But even as commercial the Ray Price recordings w/BE are – Emmons broke new ground on the Columbia's because he brought his jazz background with him to the Quonset Hut. Maybe it's just a phrase or a rhythm or some counterpoint or even just one single “outside” note in a ride that hits you – his jazz dues shine through. I don’t think this was an academic exercise on his part. Jazz - Swing and Jump music is the music he grew up with and probably listened to driving around in a car as a teenager. And then there’s “Night Life.”

The same is true of all the steel players mentioned above. They were listening to the Yellow Jackets - Steely Dan – Miles, etc. while working Nashville. This is why from Emmons on down all these players are able to “push the envelope” where the steel guitar is the heard the most – on a commercial country record. To me they continue to be at the forefront as the musicians who continue to expand Country Music as an American folk based art form.

I’m going to use the example of the Grand Ole Opry Staff steel player Tommy White - but what I have to say holds equally true for all the steel players mentioned above. Tommy's chair has to be the ground zero of all commercial country music gigs and the most accessible (you can listen in worldwide every weekend). When you listen to TW on the Opry you never say he's not playing country steel guitar. Yet he can go right to the edge of country music (as a traditional music genre) while still staying firmly rooted in a country context – all live and in real time. It takes some serious chops to go there and get back and still stay in the pocket the whole time. All the steel players we're talking about in this thread can do this – in part – because of their dues and their ability to “play out of the box.”

Once again – it’s not an academic exercise with these guys (like I'm making it sound). Bottom line – all these players are always fun to listen to: “out of the box” – playing cornbread – late night jam session – on a club date – or on a #1 hit record.

[Christopher Woitach]

This thread is very interesting to me. I've been a pro guitarist for 30 years or so with a personal focus in jazz and jazz composition. I have always been expected, on stage and in studio, to be able approach music from a wide variety of angles - how about a reggae feel here, we need a James Brown popcorn here, kind of a Scofield meets Derek Bailey is what we're looking for here, etc. I see no reason why the steel shouldn't be held to the same standard of stylistic breadth, limited only by the particular player. As has been pointed out, when this standard is applied to the exceptional players mentioned here, and yes, Paul, I include you, the results are beautiful and astonishing. The danger of "jack of all trades, master of none" doesn't seem to apply if the musician remains open to personal growth.

[Bo Legg]

Paul I agree totally but one of the things that always fascinates me is as long as I can remember talking to and reading about great PSG players of past and present is not that I don’t understand why folks feel they are not capable of playing any other genre as well but rather why those same steel players insistence on denying they have any knowledge of Musical Theory.

As you talk to these musicians about what they spontaneously in a jam setting play, they
describe in details of theory that clearly show they know a heck of a lot?

I really don't get it...Why PSG players (who are considered by the world to be country only) would expect Jazz fans to think they are capable or could be considered seriously as Jazz players when they spread all that cornpone “shucks I don’t know from Shinola about theory or one note from the other I just pick that dang thing you know what I mean”
That Jive talk only works if you are an exceptional Jazz player

[Buck Reid]

Bo... did you mean "accepted"? Details matter. Leave it to you to screw up such a great thread. You can change the spelling if you like(and thanks for highlighting it). In response to your edited post... the "exceptional" jazz players I know find no need or desire to talk "jive".

[Don Drummer]

Yes accepted. There lies the rub indeed,Buck.

[Bobby D. Jones]

From the Pacific Island style music and non pedal guitar. Buddy Emmons, Jimmy Day and a couple others around Nashville were not playing out of the BOX. They was building the BOX that that many of us play in today. Steel has transponded to Classic and Blues on one end to Speedy West with the Osborn Brothers on Rocky Top in blue grass on the other end. Then Mr. Franklin came along and played out of that box,until he made the Box Bigger for us all.

[Jim Lindsey (Louisiana)]

Hi, Paul. I love your thread here and I believe I may know first hand what you're talking about in terms of wishing to be able to share the things you've heard from these great musicians. Your post nostalgically takes me back to the late 70s and early 80s when I'd often visit Gary Hogue and he'd play LP albums or cassettes of wondrous steel playing for me.

On one such visit he said, "Man, I've got a special treat for you today" and he dug out a couple of cassette tapes he'd recently made of Buddy and other musicians playing live somewhere. I remember expecting to hear the typical excellent playing I'd been acquainted with on Emmons albums or hearing him at various steel shows ...

... but ... from the instant Gary hit the play button my musical ears were suddenly blown away with sheer delight at the direction Buddy and the other musicians were taking on those tapes. It was beyond anything I'd ever experienced in listening to Buddy's playing ... it was like I was listening to a completely different Buddy Emmons ... on those tapes he was moving in directions I could never possibly imagine and the depth of thought and feeling he played went straight to the marrow of my bones! It were as though he'd gone to some super level of music that simply has to be heard because there's just no way to describe it verbally.

Gary would watch my reactions as we listened to the players jamming on the tape ... and never did any of it become a matter of ghastly scales and nondescript notes by anyone on the tape, but every note and phrase they played was a sheer profound musical statement. And when Buddy would play, it was sheer magic. Never before or since listening to those tapes have I heard Buddy play quite in that same manner ... the music on those tapes drew us into it and transported us to a level of appreciation that's not easy to describe in words.

Interesting that so many mention being "outside the box" ... while we were listening to the tapes, at one point Gary said, "Now, is that outside the box or what?" My only reply was, "Outside the box? Man, they're in orbit!" I'll never forget what it was like listening to those exceptional tapes.

Gary passed away in 2000 and his loss is deeply felt. What of those tapes he had? Unfortunately, there is no telling who now has those exceptional tapes of Buddy's live playing and/or no telling what's happened to them over the years ... but I do wish I'd have asked Gary to make me a copy of them way back when. I'd love for them to be able to be heard by you and all the steel community, but for all I know those tapes may be irretrievably lost now and that's a very sad thing ... the music on them was, well, miraculous.

[Murnel Babineaux]

Progressive, real cajun picking on steel guitar is another art not mentioned

[Franklin]

Murnel, I agree......Great posts everyone!....Keep 'em comin'

My question is after all this time and all the great Jazz on Steel, how is it that this genre is so astoundinly unaware of the efforts and accomplishments of the players mentioned in the Pauls original post?

Well put, Don. I have that same question..

I can't speak for everyone....For me I saw mainstream jazz gigs disappear. By the end of the 70's the remaining gigs were mostly catering to smooth Jazz and Fusion tastes.. So my love and pursuit of Mainstream, Bebop, and the beautiful melodies of the Jazz standards became a personal trip and not something I desired to pursue as a career....I also loved so many other forms of music.....Today many of the most successful mainstream players survive as touring musicians in pop bands or either live in Nashville, LA or NYC as studio cats or they do clinics or teach at universities. Unless you built a legendary status in the 60's in this field, playing for the door at local clubs is mostly what's left for everyone in this genre......

Musically, Jazz might weigh in as my strongest learning desire. The study of Jazz harmony and improvisation is the best way for me to expand my knowledge beyond what I now comprehend about the inner workings of music. This journey never ends.

Paul

[frank rogers]

Guys,
Travis Toy is a monster funk and Jazz player on E9th?
Paul

And a great guitarist in addition.

[Jonathan Slyker]

So for me the logical progression of these ideas is that there should be an annual non--country steel convention or an annual jazz steel convention.

Most likely it would go over best alternating between East Coast and West Coast and possibly a big midwestern city like Chicago.

Or why not do it in Nashville where there are already music fans receptive to steel guitar?

So as to distinguish the music from country music let's call it "urban music"or "city music," etc.

Maybe the event should be strictly jazz, or maybe other genres of steel besides country, like rock, blues, classical (Perlowin!) sacred, etc. Heck, let's invite King Sunny Ade over from Nigeria to hear West African steel guitar ("out of the country" music?).

I know I've discussed this directly with Jim Cohen, and probably a few others, but I can't remember who else.

Who's in? Should we take a poll?

[Mike Neer]

....
Musically, Jazz might weigh in as my strongest learning desire. The study of Jazz harmony and improvisation is the best way for me to expand my knowledge beyond what I now comprehend about the inner workings of music. This journey never ends.

Paul

It is a lifelong pursuit and one of the things that keeps us perpetual students, no matter what status we achieve, as you have proven.

[Doug Earnest]

Where would a person go today to hear some "out of the box" jams?

[Mark van Allen]

Doug, last night it might have been here in Atlanta. This is a moment from our Holiday Jam... onstage at this point (besides lucky me!); Jeff Sipe, Drums- Oteil Burbridge, Bass- Diane Durret and Jimmy Hall, vocals/sax/harmonica - Papa Mali, guitar- Yonrico Scott, percussion- Ike Stubblefield, organ.
Very eclectic setlist morphing from blues to funk to rock to bluegrass to jazz, sometimes all within one song.

PSG players (who are considered by the world to be country only)

I have to respectfully disagree with this line of thought. In the Jam band scene, pedal steel is widely recognized and appreciated as a limitless, genre-less, endlessly creative possibility, largely because the players in that genre don't limit themselves. Frankly, many of the people who bemoan the niche market of the steel are probably unaware of the possibilities there, and in the ever-burgeoning Americana singer/songwriter market. We are what we present ourselves as, and as many past threads have explored, if we believe we play a "country" instrument suitable for a "country" crowd, that's where our personal market will lie.
We can play any kind of music we wish, and showcase the versatility of the steel by simply playing it.

[Barry Blackwood]

Let's just say it - a convention for steel players who play everything but country. Not sure I'm all in on that one..

[Jonathan Slyker]

Au contraire Pierre. Sorry if I miscommunicated. Not what I meant, no way, no how. Will Doug Jernigan get ejected for playing "She Thinks I Still Care" in a midnight "side room" jam. Seriously. In a side room if they're calling tunes, let somebody call "Stairway to Heaven" for all I care. Remember "Wayne's World?"

It's not the PERSON who would be "excluded." Is there any, any, any steeler who doesn't KNOW HOW to use E9 in the "vocabulary" of honky tonk music. I highly doubt it.

But at my only ISGC there was about 10 or 15% jazz, if jazz is defined by what would be in a Real Book, or let's say something with chords outside the diatonic I-vi system. There is a very fine line between jazz and country and they come from the same gene pool. Jimmy Rodgers recorded a record with Louis Armstrong. Bob Wills used horns. Etc. Blah Blah. Everybody know this stuff.

All I'm saying is that ISGC seems mostly country, as in classic 60s-70's stuff. I love the stuff like I like ice cream. I could eat the half gallon. That's not the point.

I want to hear Sez Adamson, Rick Schmidt, Jim Loessburg, David Easley, Jim Cohen, Mike Perlowin, Gary Gimble, on and on, to add to the list we're compiling. Texas is not far from L.A. Speaking of Texas, let's have it one year in Austin. It's all good. I'm not putting down honky tonk. I just love hearing jazz tonalities. Isn't that what we're talking about.

[Mike Neer]

But at my only ISGC there was about 10 or 15% jazz, if jazz is defined by what would be in a Real Book, or let's say something with chords outside the diatonic I-vi system. There is a very fine line between jazz and country and they come from the same gene pool. Jimmy Rodgers recorded a record with Louis Armstrong. Bob Wills used horns. Etc. Blah Blah. Everybody know this stuff.

Joanthan, I'm going to disagree with this--jazz and country music are worlds apart, especially in their present states. Sure, the early country musicians (and even Hawaiian musicians) adapted their music to include important elements of swing and blues, but beyond that the stylistic gap widened exponentially. What is the country equivalent of Speak No Evil?

One thing we know for sure--the great players all know where to turn to get their worlds rocked musically, and more often than not it's jazz. One can not play jazz casually and expect to play it at a high level. Emmons and company put in some serious time, I have no doubts, but I'm sure they'd even tell you they'd have trouble hangin' with the best of them. But, man, I'd love to hear more players doing it and writing music.

Again, I offer these thoughts only in the spirit of good conversation, not to be a $^&(*!

[Jonathan Slyker]

Oh dear steelers. I don't disagree with just about anything that has appeared in this post. I tend to ramble. Forgive me again. I apparently missed the target. I was responding to this post:

"a convention for steel players who play everything but country. Not sure I'm all in on that one."

To clarify,Barry, to my mind, you're "in"if you play or listen to any steel jazz. For the convention, it wouldn't matter if you could play country or not, as long as you dug the non-country as well.

Or did you mean to say "a convention where scant, if any, country genre was on the published program, and the headliners were folks closely associated with C6, complex tonalities, etc." This one was my intention. I would hope that most of the same people would choose ISGC equally frequently as the "urban music" convention. But there would be some "country purists" and some "jazz purists."

Think of my new convention as not an "anti" thing, but a complementary event. It would be really cool if we could beg one of the superstars to just play a number or 2 to give the event a publicity draw and an artistic blessing.

We could conceivably work with Scotty somehow to get the jazz portion of ISGC expanded. Perhaps do the jazz section on Wednesday and early Thurs and then carry on as usual.

Another interesting part of this fantasy/thought experiment is that jazz requires a more select group of "accompanists," as Mr. Franklin alludes to in passing by giving credits to the non-steel players in the jams/bands. Anybody can fake "Almost Persuaded," but not everybody can follow every tune in the real book. Who here can recite the chords to "My goal's beyond?"

So do the jazz players bring their own ringers or does a particular ensemble of local jazz players have to be retained?

So again, please Barry, don't quit the club!

[Jonathan Slyker]

Addendum: I forgot to directly acknowledge Mike N. I totally agree with you, even if you disagree with me. Now I'm confused. Seriously my only point was about Barry's post that he might not "be in." Lots of musicians have lots of music floating around in their heads. Look at Frisell doing "You've got to hide your love away." Changes are purely diatonic but did he make it jazz-holy cow.

The only point is to have a convention whose program had "jazz" tunes, like standards, rather than country "standards."

Because "Goodbye Porkpie Hat" is light years away from "Isn't She Lovely," there are of course some musicians who could not comprehend both of the pieces. Or even hate one or the other of the tunes/genres. Country obviously IS NOT jazz.

What the players do in the privacy of their own homes and with other consenting adult musicians is their own business. When I want to here "California Cottonfields" I'll go the traditional ISGC and when I want to hear "Lush Life," I'll for sure go to our "city steel" convention.

How many out there are with me?

[Barry Blackwood]

So again, please Barry, don't quit the club!

Not to worry, I like it all. The ISGC has a Jazz Room does it not, and doesn't that serve the purpose here? Maybe we should rename it the Alternative Room to cover all the bases. Having an entire separate convention for 'non-country' players seems over the top and exclusionary.

[Jonathan Slyker]

I'm with you. ISGC is beyond awesome. But it's just a teeny bit and sometimes even conflicts with something else that's happening on the main stage. So I was just following the spirit started by PF which seemed to be "you ought to see Doug Jernigan improvise to some serious changes-it will blow you away" or something like that. I'm a newbie. ISGC of 2010 was my only ISGC. But the after hours jams with like 8 steels and a rhythm section was to die for. I did not see a parallel energy on "jazz" tunes. Again, following Paul's initial post, the serious dudes know hundreds of standards, if not thousands. You need that kind of rhythm section- the kind that PF described as he witnessed the super jazz steel guitar jams, with Buddy and others. I also know that in NYC, rhythm players who know the Real Book are plentiful, high supply, low demand. Not to mention, let's say some superstar hears thru the grapevine that some of the best C6 players are in town- so he stops in to check it out, gets invited on stage. Then you have reached that point mentioned earlier in this thread, that is, the best of the best C6 players elevated to the level of the "jazz big boys." Who wouldn't like to jam with Charlie Haden? The same could probably go for LA, I imagine.

I'm not trying to stir up any trouble, just find out if the energy PF put into this post can be channelled to grow the PSG jazz presence. Jimbeau, where art thou?