Sound-men and steel volume

Dave Grothusen · Post by **Dave Grothusen** » 18 Feb 2012 4:53 am

Someone mentioned you do not want to make the sound man mad. This is true. I was told by one that "I can make or break the band". Bad attitude and he should have been looking for another job. Oh, he owned the sound company. Damn. At the time we needed him good or bad.

John Billings · Post by **John Billings** » 18 Feb 2012 7:44 am

This may not last. b0b, if it's too risque', then please pull. Just got it from an audio engineer friend in Nashville, and thought it was funny.

Gary Preston · Post by **Gary Preston** » 18 Feb 2012 2:00 pm

One thing about true friends they will be honest and not make excuses to pass the buck ! It takes a good ear to run sound and bring a good mix of all instruments and i know this as well as anyone else . A good sound man is worth his weight in gold . But they seem to be hard to find also . Just because someone tells you he is a sound man DONT believe him until you hear his work . And i do mean '' HEAR '' his work . G.P.

W. C. Edgar · Post by **W. C. Edgar** » 19 Feb 2012 9:52 am

I call sound men 'JACK OF ALL KNOBS guys'.
I have worked on big shows with tons of artists and here's my deal.
Some 'Jack of all knobs guys' will run the sliders on me as I play the show because they think they know where the steel needs to be heard. Other 'Jack of all knobs guys' will set my volume with my volume pedal down to the max and keep their grubby little hands off the sliders. I've been around and around with this also and the final word for me is 'set my max volume with my pedal down' and don't run the sliders on me and when you're supposed to hear the steel you will. Thats why it's called a 'volume pedal' for Christ's sake. But there will still be A-hole 'Jack of all knobs' guys out there that think they know it all. And that's why they're called 'Jack of all knobs'. If you get stuck on a show with one of these guys and someone in the audience says they can't hear you, point them to the Jack Of All Knobs. Oh and just for your information, the BEST sound man I ever had the pleasure of working with on the road was my friend Buddy Jennings (Waylon Jennings' oldest son). I remember a conversation we had on my first show with BNA Nashville Recording Artist BB Watson at a packed "Cowboys' in the Dallas area in 1992 when I asked 'are you running the sliders on me"? To which he replied 'hell no! thats what you have a volume pedal for. Thanks Buddy!

Mike Cass · Post by **Mike Cass** » 20 Feb 2012 11:31 pm

its a well known fact that the quietest thing onstage, whatever it is, will probably be the loudest thing in the house mix if the knob jockey notices that its there in the first place. Remember also that most of these fellows are not musicians, or else they'd be playing music for a living instead of riding the faders.
When I worked for Waylon Jennings we had a 115db stage, and directly behind me were Waylon's 2 Super Twin Reverb-behemoths with 2 TC choruses, 1 in each amp set to different sweeps and delay times, etc. I loved his sound but you couldnt cut rhrough that with a jackhammer. My amps were on either side of me facing into each ear and I used a monitor placed directly in front of me which I heard the digital piano and lead guitar in, but my onstage steel sound came from my amps only. I heard me in the house from time to time but after all it was a 115db stage....'nuff said about that.
Conversely, when I worked for Ray Price there were times that he had me turn down so low that I literally couldnt hear my amp. That was because I was playing too loud onstage as I didnt trust that I was getting in the house mix, which I wasnt, because I was playing too loud onstage because I didnt trust that I was getting in the house mix, which I wasnt, ad nauseaum.....Get the picture? It took me awhile to realize that it was the Ray Price Show, not Scotty's Convention

However, after a little consultation with Ray's son Cliff who does sound on most of their shows we came up with a solution we call "the bubble": at soundcheck Id be the last to go and Id set my amp volume where I could hear myself in the mains, but only faintly onstage. See, Ray usually stands a good bit out in front of the band and hears himself in his monitors and he hears the band in the house mix. When I was trying to fill a 10,000 seat auditorium with my little 45 watt Standel due to my ignorance of the logistical difficulties of miking all them violins, drums, gut-string guitar, an upright bass and usually an acoustic grand piano, I was taking Ray's head off, but damm, I needed to get that fat sound that I thought only came with a certain ammount of volume. Then as Cliff and I cogitated on a solution(before I found myself unemployed.....)I remembered how cool it is to play dobro on the 'Opry and hear yourself in the house...tone & presence bigger n' you-know-what.
When I took that frame of mind to playing electric steel guitar in Ray's band, things got much easier for me and believe it or not, sometimes Ray would tell me that I could be louder...imagine my surprise!
Besides, as much as I like what comes out of my Standel, that quality is amplified many times over by any decent PA system, and for me thats when playing music turns into the most fun you can have with yer clothes on.
Yeah, busy hands at the console can be irritating, but the less he has to fool with you, the better your chances are of being heard, at least in my experience.
While my credibilty on these issues can certainely be challenged, Ive heard enough of the YouTube vids of Ray's shows during my tenure to know that the bubble works, works well, and kept it sounding like the Ray Price Show and not me at a steel guitar convention trying to cram four pounds of Emmons & Day licks into a one pound bag, such as I did when I started there.

Gary Preston · Post by **Gary Preston** » 22 Feb 2012 8:00 am

Great analogy Mike . This is a problem in a lot of bands i think ! With me it's not the idea that i want to heard over any other player but i just want to be in the mix so others can hear what i am playing ( good or bad ) ! I only play up to the volume of the monitors or somewhere close . I don't think it's mean to ask to hear the other players and singers in the monitors ! After all you need to know whats going on to be able to play your part in time with the band ! To me it's that simple then when the sound man makes a stupid remark like '' Steel Players ''can't hear anyway i get a little upset ! My 2 cents . G.P.

steve takacs · Post by **steve takacs** » 24 Feb 2012 8:57 am

John Billings... that was great! I've copied that in case it gets "redacted". Thanks, stevet

Tony Prior · Post by **Tony Prior** » 24 Feb 2012 9:03 am

I play a gig on a big stage where the sound guy wants me to use two amps, one for guitar and one for Steel , he can't get the mix right supposedly. A Twin with a Telecaster and a Steel. I ran this by another sound guy at another club and he laughed...he said..that's what the knobs are for !

I'm not bringing two amps...

t

Scott Henderson · Post by **Scott Henderson** » 24 Feb 2012 9:36 am

WC is spot on regarding the attitude 95% of the time and the solution. When I was on the road and we hit a new club I would by the "jockey" a drink and explain how I wanted it done....(like WC said to do it) If that didn't work I would take a leg off my guitar go to the board and say " Did I ever tell you my lifetime batting average is .346?" Seemed to get my point across. It's live sound 101... Set it and forget it...

Alan Tanner · Post by **Alan Tanner** » 24 Feb 2012 9:53 am

This has been a very interesting thread to follow. Even if you don't have a sound man, it is hard to get things just right. Rooms that have "hot" spots, really poor acoustics, Billy Bob's wife complaining she can't hear him, somebody sitting right in front of one of the P.A. speakers bitching that the "band" is too loud. Groups that I have played with that have a sound man always seem to be kind of a crap shoot. I believe it is mostly from the fact that the sound man really doesnt know WHAT to do with the steel guitar, and is used to screaming over driven instruments that he has to "control". Nothing worse than a rocker trying to mix a country band...

Gary Preston · Post by **Gary Preston** » 24 Feb 2012 2:47 pm

Let me add this one if i may . How about a sound man that had a motorcycle wreck and is totally deaf in his left ear and is real hard of hearing in the other ear !!! I just had this happen to me . Then he said that steel players can't hear anyway !!!

Believe me i am telling you the 100% truth ! Then he told me he could get the same tone and dynamics from the soundboard that i get from my Nashville 400 Steel Amp . Needless to say he didn't run me straight through the board . I had him mike my amp . He wasn't a happy camper $:\$ Oh by the way he doesn't run sound anymore ! At least not for us !

John Billings · Post by **John Billings** » 24 Feb 2012 2:55 pm

We were lucky! We had a great soundman! People would come up and say, "It's as good as listening to a CD."

Gary Preston · Post by **Gary Preston** » 24 Feb 2012 3:35 pm

John you need to come and play at our steel jams !

John Billings · Post by **John Billings** » 24 Feb 2012 3:40 pm

Alas Gary, my fingers are starting to curl up with tendon problems. Runs in the family. I don't play much anymore, because of the frustration. I'm still restoring though.

Paul Carestia · Post by **Paul Carestia** » 4 Mar 2012 11:45 am

I had the pleasure of being able to hear Brent Mason and the Players at a Guitar Show in Copper Mountain, Colorado a couple of years ago. Paul Franklin was there with him obviously.

Well, to my utter dismay, my disgust, my anger they had Paul so low in the mix you couldn't even hear his solo's.

I confronted the sound guys on behalf of the few steel players in the audience. All I got was a blank stare. Most sound guys are clueless when it comes to steel guitar. It's such a shame. And it's so simple. Vocals out front, lead instruments next, drums and bass set the floor on volume.

I've learned long ago to play for myself and how I sound on stage. That's all I can control.

John Billings · Post by **John Billings** » 4 Mar 2012 11:59 am

And never tell the soundman it's a volume pedal. " No! It's an "Expression" pedal. Like on a Hammond. You know?"

Kevin Hatton · Post by **Kevin Hatton** » 4 Mar 2012 12:17 pm

That's why we carried our OWN sound man. Most don't have a clue about steel guitar.

Chuck Hayes · Post by **Chuck Hayes** » 4 Mar 2012 12:22 pm

As a lead guitar player I've had my share of go arounds with sound men, they don't understand dynamics or how to reproduce a clean tone.

David Ellison · Post by **David Ellison** » 4 Mar 2012 8:40 pm

I think its probably not the soundman's fault, it's the band's. If you're playing with a guitar player who only plays at one volume for both rhythm and lead (like most rock players do), how is the soundman supposed to find a good mix?

I played in bands where the only other lead instrument was electric guitar. I always tried to stress that the guitar player had to get out of the way when I came in... that means turning his guitar WAY down if he's going to play rhythm. The guitar player should play with as much dynamics as the steel player does. To me, the lead instruments should take turns playing fills behind the singer... each one playing a verse, then backing off or laying out entirely. Country players always understood, rock players NEVER did. New country is played more like rock music, so I would assume it's harder to mix... you can't blame the soundman for that, though.

Jackie Anderson · Post by **Jackie Anderson** » 29 Apr 2012 8:41 am

Dan, if you are still following this thread that you started, and in case you weren't at the Bayside Bowl in Portland last night, you will be pleased to know that the soundguy du jour did a great job on the band ("Big Ass Rooster") in a tough room (the noise from the adjacent bowling lanes doesn't help) -- and you could actually hear our friend Cartwright Thompson loud and clear (of course the tele player still had 5 or 6 db on him)! That P/P sounded great. Be sure to catch the next "Too Broke To Be This Drunk" show.

Jack

Gene Jones · Post by **Gene Jones** » 29 Apr 2012 9:18 am

All of the above is so relevant. My years of combat with sound engineers is responsible for most of my grey hair. Most of them "mix" according to their experience and prejudices, and a steel guitar always comes in last.

I admit to minimizing my volume pedal when asked for my expected maximum volume. Otherwise, I didn't have a level playing field.

Sound engineers have a horror of any musician having control of their volume and tone.

Gus York · Post by **Gus York** » 29 Apr 2012 1:31 pm

The best live sound I EVER heard was at a brilliant POCO concert here in the UK in the 70's, Rusty Young and the rest of the band were mixed to perfection for
the audience-what it was like to the boys on stage I haven't a clue? But they all looked pretty happy. You'd think we would have pinned it all down by now and every player would be happy, especially the poor old misunderstood steel player! - WRONG?

I joined a Dire Straits tribute band around three years ago and had the wonderful experience of a 'sound' man (no way was he sound) who had no working ears, and had never worked with a steel before! When I said that the way the steel should be heard was to take a good listen to the Dire Straits concerts with Paul Franklin, he calmly mentioned he had NEVER listened to any of their concerts with steel or without steel?? Now that's a true pro! Not that he could have got it right anyway!

Friends who came to see the band and me especially never heard a note I played, in fact they actually wondered if my amp was ON? This was confirmed after a live recording was made on a gig, and well, for the amount you could
hear me, the steel might as well have stayed in the case!! (I was DI'd by the way)

It finally came down to 'It's either him or me who goes' fortunately for me it was him! After all that time trying very hard to pin down some Franklin licks (which
I mostly couldn't do) I wasn't going that easily anyway!

Thankfully we finally employed a real 'sound' guy and EUREKA! I could suddenly hear myself- and the audience could too ! Mind you - I think some of the punters preferred the previous 'unsound' man!?

Dale Rivard · Post by **Dale Rivard** » 30 Apr 2012 9:45 am

I usually don't get in on these type of conversations, but after getting back from Nashville not long ago, I feel the need to vent.

My wife and I saw Paul Franklin with The Time Jumpers at the Station Inn on Monday night and then the next night at the Ryman. At the Station Inn, I could hear his solos and fills great. We were sitting right at the back and right beside the sound board.(almost center stage) But being it`s a small room, I suspect some of the steel sound I was hearing was coming off the stage fom Paul`s rig. The next night at the Ryman was a different story. Many times Paul would be half way through his solo before he would be up in the mains. I know this because I could faintly hear his on stage sound and then part way through his lead he would be in the mix. Some of his fills were distant or not in the mix at all. We were sitting main floor about half way back and almost center stage. None of the other instruments had this issue. By the way, what I did hear, Paul played and sounded (tone-wise) awesome.

As a player, I try to give the sound person the best on stage sound I can give them. Then it`s out of my hands. As a listener, it can be very frustrating. I just don`t understand why some sound people can`t trust and give the steel player that needed volume.

Especially when it`s a world class player like Paul.

I guess I just expected more being it`s the Ryman in Nashville. But it won`t stop me from going again.

Okay, I feel better now.

Jake Hoffman · Post by **Jake Hoffman** » 30 Apr 2012 4:35 pm

Played a gig at the Knitting Factory in Reno last year opening for Travis Tritt. Soundman spent 20 minutes on the drum kit and 3 minutes on my steel. The beat goes on.

Dave Grafe · Post by **Dave Grafe** » 30 Apr 2012 8:43 pm

This thread sounds very much like the stuff that good sound techs say about steel guitarists....

FYI, It's a lot harder to get mic'ed drums to fit cleanly into a mix than it is to do with a steel guitar. A LOT harder in fact, so be glad the guy cared enough to take the time to work on it.

Just in case you were wondering, in actual concert experience, if the drums and vocals sound good at the top of the show the audience will be happy enough while the rest of the mix gets tweaked into shape. If the drums and vocals suck up front but the steel guitar sounds good who will be happy? We love our steel guitars but let's get real, for a competent arranger, producer or engineer they are very seldom the singular focus of the music. Just chill out and do your best, if it sucks there will be another gig that doesn't....

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