The band says they want a pedal steel, but they really don’t

Ben Jones · Post by **Ben Jones** » 9 Jul 2009 5:38 am

Geez Steve, i dont even hear ANY guitar in that waylon tune..is he even plugged in? That song is like one long steel solo.

If i refused to join crappy bands, i 'd never get to play

Besides Steve is hogging all the jobs

Steve, you know Im kidding right? man this internet humor is rough...is this thing on?

Jim Cohen · Post by **Jim Cohen** » 9 Jul 2009 6:08 am

Doug Beaumier wrote:Come on, Jim... you're a Deadhead from way back!

I knew my past would catch up with me sooner or later. Okay, okay, I've been out-ed. Harrumph!

Post by **Dave Mudgett** » 9 Jul 2009 7:53 am

Dave M., you have to know i was joking right?

Yup, we both shoulda used smileys.

Steve Norman · Post by **Steve Norman** » 9 Jul 2009 8:02 am

Ben Jones wrote:Geez Steve, i dont even hear ANY guitar in that waylon tune..is he even plugged in? That song is like one long steel solo.

exactly!

not every song needs guitar, just like not every song needs steel. I hate the attitude that steel needs to be supplemented, which as you know is a very Seattle attitude, "lets rock this up". I tell people that I want a couple of steel songs. The guitarist can get over himself and take his hands off the guitar, or learn what those little knobs on the bottom of his instrument are and use them for the few dedicated steel songs. In return I give the guitar lots of room for their solos.

Ben if you need more work I got some bands asking me that I cant cover. Im sure they would be happy to provide m&ms!

Chris LeDrew · Post by **Chris LeDrew** » 9 Jul 2009 1:05 pm

Luckily, the musicians I play with are in tune with the concept of dynamics. The few times I've run into over-eager guitarists (I also play guitar, so I know the mentality), I usually ask them which verse they want to take, as far as fills are concerned. They are then forced to take their pick, and many times get the hint about staying off your verse, or your solo, whatever. This way, you're working with another musician instead of going up against them. A lot of rock guitarists do not understand the concept of fills on verses, because a lot of rock music doesn't have such dynamics. This is country territory, and it's very cool when the dynamics are in order. If they tend more towards rock, you're probably gonna wallow in frustration until you move on. Fortunately, there are good musicians out there. Best of luck with it!

Ben Jones · Post by **Ben Jones** » 9 Jul 2009 3:10 pm

"Ben if you need more work I got some bands asking me that I cant cover. Im sure they would be happy to provide m&ms!"

m&m's was just my code word for coke

Im kidding again, please folks....

I cant do what you do Steve, i am just too lazy and not a good enough player to just jump in with all those bands like you do. I admire it tho....hats off brother.

So these bands that hire you to play with them, where you're not actually a member of the band, do they actually listen to you when you tell them you want a couple steel songs?

Steve Norman · Post by **Steve Norman** » 9 Jul 2009 3:57 pm

No they dont. I have to explain to them that if I dont have a clear note to reference I will sound out of tune. The more experienced guys I play with get that, but the immature guys that think having a country instrument somewhere on stage makes them country are a nightmare to play with. They bend when I bend, they warble and tremelo chords during my changes, and play more solos than they are supposed to with something like this as a reply to my requests for them to give me space: "because I was drunk and it felt good bro, chill".
I usually tell them twice, then if it doesnt change I let them know Im walking. They either change to keep me, or they stay with what they are and become a classic rock band. There are a few guitarists in Seattle that hate me. Screw them they suck and...................(*@(%_@% their little dog to!

I really think the best thing that works for me is to ask for a couple of songs where I am the lead, and ask that the guitar just plays chords at a lower volume. If I get 2 songs that are steel heavy then I think I can sell my other parts to them as well. Kind of like a vacuum salesmen I have to stick my foot in the door to get a sale. If Im getting paid then I will back off, but if its free I quit if it doesnt improve. No point in lugging 200lbs of tuning problems all over town to not get heard, and 60$ and 2 free beers doesnt really remove the sting very well.

Like Bill said, you end up having to play at loud volumes just to be heard, and the steel is painful when its loud, so there is another group of musicians that dont like steel, because its "all tinny and piercy" even though its thier fault its like that. When the band is loud all those pretty low drops get washed out, and your left with the highs. Not worth it if your not getting anything out of it other than tinnitus.

BTW Ben your a very good player, and Im lucky you dont think so. Turns out Seattle is a steel town! lot of great players up here and its growing! You should find one of these girl with guitar solo acts and jump in. Very nice change of pace and you can get away with all sorts of stuff, plus meet bands that get to hear what pretty steel sounds like and will appreciate you being there.

To much coca-cola and mms will rot your teeth!

Right now there is a real nice young folk think going on, and they all want steel and no lead guitar......... NO LEAD GUITAR! Is not Buck Owens, but you can sure push it that way till something breaks! When I see adds for country bands these days I know it means

1. Neal Young/Allman Bros
2. top40 80's stylesoftrockadultcontemporaryspikyhairyouthpreacherbubblegumfacksouthernaccenttruckcommercialgowarfootballcomercial

I avoid both like the plague!

that felt good

Brian Kurlychek · Post by **Brian Kurlychek** » 9 Jul 2009 4:10 pm

I'm playin in a Neil Young band right now. I think its a good place to start. At least I'm getting out and interacting with other musicians and learning stuff.

Steve Norman · Post by **Steve Norman** » 9 Jul 2009 4:47 pm

no criticism of Neal Young or Neal-Young bands here! I just dont like bands that say they are "country" because they like Neal Young, its all about truth in advertising! If they advertised as "Country Rock/Classic Rock looking for occasional background steel" then that would be different. I actually love Neal and the steel parts as well as the heavy guitar stuff he does. That was entirely a criticism of the constant mis-use (in my humble opinion) of the term country for a rock band.

Joe Miraglia · Post by **Joe Miraglia** » 9 Jul 2009 4:57 pm

Playing a song close to cover will help,it is a good starting point.Than if they want to add or change something they have something to go by. There are a lot of songs out there to pick from. Our band tries to picks songs that have steel guitar,lead guitar,and keys on the cover songs,thats what our band has.Make do of what you have in a band. If a band has a steel guitar they better use it or loose it. Joe

Ellis Miller · Post by **Ellis Miller** » 9 Jul 2009 7:02 pm

I guess I am one of the fortunate few. I play guitar in a band with an excellent steel player. We trade fills and solos (often split solos) and know each other well enough that who takes what at what time is pretty much determined when the decision is made as to who kicks off the song. He doesn't require any song to be all steel nor I all guitar.

He is a real PRO. That is the operative word friends.

Ben Jones · Post by **Ben Jones** » 9 Jul 2009 8:10 pm

Steve Norman wrote:no criticism of Neal Young or Neal-Young bands here! I just dont like bands that say they are "country" because they like Neal Young, its all about truth in advertising! If they advertised as "Country Rock/Classic Rock looking for occasional background steel" then that would be different. I actually love Neal and the steel parts as well as the heavy guitar stuff he does. That was entirely a criticism of the constant mis-use (in my humble opinion) of the term country for a rock band.

Thanks for the compliment on my playing Steve.
I pretty much play in what i consider to be rock bands. I understand what your sayin, I just never claim to be country or even alt country. people see a pedal steel and immmediately assume country or alt country. it kinda works both ways. I was in a band that was doing really well and our manager decided to have a critic come see our show and give us some constructive criticism and this guy's criticism was that we didnt sound like an alt country band. He said we should listen more closely to our wilco records...I dont own any wilco records , no offense to wilco...its just not what we were trying to do. we were a straight up rock band with loud guitars and drums...and a pedal steel. singer turned out to be a mess and the band broke up a week later but thats another story.

I LOVE country music and I have nothing but the greatest respect for the skill of its players, but man, I grew up in the city (the mean streets of cleveland brother!! haha) listening to led zeppelin ...I gotta be me. I'd love to play in a real country band, but honestly...real country musicians would stomp a mudhole in me, and my stuff would still end up sounding minor pentatonic.

my latest catastrophy is playing the skylark not this sunday but next, our first gig, kinda a stonesy thing.
Jons band is playing too. early show at 7.
It would be good to see you again Steve, I'll buy you a malted beverage.

Rick Campbell · Post by **Rick Campbell** » 9 Jul 2009 8:24 pm

I've played in bands that said they wanted a steel player and they hired me to play steel........ and they still wanted a steel player.

John Steele · Post by **John Steele** » 9 Jul 2009 10:09 pm

SLEEPWALK! What the #$*&* is that: a freakin' GUITAR TUNE or somethin'??!

I hate to tell you Jim, but, yes, since Brian Setzer recorded it some years ago, alot of guitar players who play it have never heard it as a steel guitar tune. Strange but true.

- John

Glen Derksen · Post by **Glen Derksen** » 9 Jul 2009 10:59 pm

Getting back to the original topic, it sounds to me like the band thought it might be a good idea to add a steel guitar to their lineup, but maybe the guitarists are so wrapped up in strutting their stuff that they don't think about putting you in the spotlight. If you want more of a chance to share the spotlight and if they are not willing to offer that, then I think it might be best to move on to a more appreciative group of people.

Tony Prior · Post by **Tony Prior** » 10 Jul 2009 1:49 am

There are TWO Electic guitars in this band ? One Lead and one rhythm ?

Gosh, I though that went out with Post Toasties !

t

Mark Durante · Post by **Mark Durante** » 10 Jul 2009 2:45 am

Most of these kind of bands think it's cool to have a steel guitar for "atmosphere" in the background. They don't seriously think of it as a lead instrument.

Danny Hullihen · Post by **Danny Hullihen** » 10 Jul 2009 5:44 am

Bill, if you don't mind me asking, what's the name of the band you're "trying" to work with? Chances are good I probably know them, and also what you can expect as being a steel player for them.

If you really want to hear some fantastic steel guitar playing from some of the nations and Michigans finest, then seriously consider attending this event

http://bb.steelguitarforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=162061

Jim Sliff · Post by **Jim Sliff** » 10 Jul 2009 6:14 am

It would be really great to find some good musicians that want to play good music, and are more interested in the total sound of a band, then their individual sound.

Personally, I would know from the first practice session that it's a bad fit. If they didn't try to "draw you in" and left zero holes for you to fill it won't change in the future. Just from your first post I'd recommend that if your head hurts then stop beating it against that wall.

Barry Blackwood · Post by **Barry Blackwood** » 10 Jul 2009 6:35 am

SLEEPWALK! What the #$*&* is that: a freakin' GUITAR TUNE or somethin'??!

I believe Larry Carlton had a (nice) version of it also. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=haLd0r_K1Dc

Mark MacKenzie · Post by **Mark MacKenzie** » 10 Jul 2009 6:50 am

I was gonna say the same thing, Barry. Carlton has his sound on the tune but misses the point by a mile. Its that tone of that steel that makes Sleepwalk.

Great advice from all about bands. (All the way from 40's 50's big Swing bands to onstage with Garcia) This forum has amazing depth of experience!

I think each band should have a band leader to achieve any kind of musical vision. Otherwise its wall o' sound. Get specific, ask, tell, be precise. Trainwrecks happen because of lack of communication.

How do you quit a band you don't want to be in? Should you be honest and say "You guys suck so bad...." or do what I have done..... "Guys, I am just too busy to be in another band situation right now......"

After years of being quiet, I now believe in speaking right up.

Bill Moore · Post by **Bill Moore** » 10 Jul 2009 10:10 am

Danny, I sent you an email. I'm just going to have a "wait and see" attitude. Like I said, I'm not very busy anyway, not much else to do. Jim, believe it or not, I have had worse experiences with some others. I think you just get tried of it being a struggle all the time. After some more time, if I can't fit any better with them, I'll move on. Lot's of excellent advise in this thread!

GaryL · Post by **GaryL** » 11 Jul 2009 9:45 am

A band member (fiddle or lead in this example)plays over everyone, simply because they can't break without losing the melody.

A lead man that crashes and burns on request tunes and then blames the steel player for hogging the lead.

A lead man shows up with a big amp, sits in a chair two feet in front of it and throws a post-gig hissy fit saying that he can't hear. And its all your fault.

Bandleaders and singers who hire a steel player "because I've always liked the sound" and then do '50's rock and a lot of non-steel oriented country and pop.

Band members that claim to newcomers that they are so "professional" that the band can play with anybody and doesn't need to practice as a group.

Lead singers who don't play anything but politics and are drunk and screaming by the end of the night.

In time you can learn to deal gracefully with ego and ignorance, but sometimes you've just got to walk away. Life's just too short.

Dustin Rigsby · Post by **Dustin Rigsby** » 12 Jul 2009 3:37 am

Once again,I have to say that my band is so laid back,they pretty much let me do what I feel the song needs. I'm lucky to work in a band that gets it.

Craig A Davidson · Post by **Craig A Davidson** » 12 Jul 2009 5:47 am

It's funny Bill that you would post this at this time as I just went thru about the same thing. A friend of mine called me and said a band he was helping to form was interested in me playing steel for them. I went to a practice and their list consisited of guitar type tunes. When I mentioned that maybe they needed another guitar player they told me that maybe I could play all the slide shlock on steel. I thought what the heck I would hang with them til after the first job and see what developed with them agreeing to do a few more tunes with real steel in them. It only took one gig. We played on one of those postage stamp size clubs with a PA large enough for Madison Square Garden so we all wre cramped together. Then the guitar player who is already deaf in one ear puts his amp on a chair right behind me. He has his in-ear monitors in but the guitar isn't in the board so of course he has to crank it. It was a whole night of Toby Keith, Little Texas, Keith Urban, Brad Paisley, Kentucky Headhunters stuff. I quit after the first gig. Oh yeah it was the first band I was ever around that I hated 97% of the tunes on their set list.

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