The band says they want a pedal steel, but they really don’t

Bill Moore · Post by **Bill Moore** » 8 Jul 2009 4:40 am

I’m always looking for more opportunities to play, so I connected with a new band a couple of weeks ago. They have been together for a number of years, recently lost their bass player, found another, and said they also wanted to add a steel player. Just to be clear, there is no big money involved, they probably do 2-3 gigs a month.

The call themselves a country band, but the song list is heavy on guitar songs, southern rock, and some classic rock, only a few steel-friendly country tunes. I don’t really mind that, I can find a part to play in that style of music, if I am allowed to. And that was really the problem; the lead guitar just did all his parts as if I wasn’t there. Taking two full verse solos in one song, for example. After about 10 songs, the drummer began to get louder and louder, even though we were playing in a garage about 20x20 in size. I decided to turn up my volume, to match the drum level, so I could hear myself. Then one of the guys began complaining that I was too loud. Of course, I was too loud, but I wanted to make the point, that when someone is too loud it does ruin the sound.
Some discussion followed, I tried to explain my point of view. So, one guy says what he would like to hear is something like the steel parts in some of today’s music. Which means he doesn't actually want to hear the steel at all.

Although I have doubts they will change. I’ll give them a bit more time, just to see if they are really interested in making some adjustments in the way they do things, maybe change the song list a little. If not, I will move on. But, it seems like some bands like the “idea” of having a pedal steel in the band, but really don’t understand how it should sound. I’ve run into this before, it’s too much aggravation for me to deal with. It would be really great to find some good musicians that want to play good music, and are more interested in the total sound of a band, then their individual sound.

Billy Carr · Post by **Billy Carr** » 8 Jul 2009 4:46 am

When you run across a band with a lead guitarman that overplays or tries to play all of the parts then that's a sign to move on somewhere else. Don't waste your time, all it'll do is leave a bad taste in your mouth, so to speak. Let'em have it, these kind always fizzle out. Don't fizzle with them. One idea is to start attending/playing at steel shows, if your ready. You'll be appreciated in that setting. Been there, done that!

Jerome Hawkes · Post by **Jerome Hawkes** » 8 Jul 2009 5:22 am

bill - this is happening ALL the time these days - it is probably the norm 90% of the time. even bands that have had pedal steel in them for years are moving to rock-country and the steel might as well be a banjo
if there isnt any money involved, then i would just split, if i'm gonna put up with that, there needs to be some benefit. - i'd rather play rest homes.

what i always do in those situations, and it ONLY works if you have at least 1 other member on your side, is when they get louder, you and the other member get quieter, keep on til the person in question finally gets it - if they dont get it, record the practice and you all listen, it should be REAL obvious who is too loud.
you have fallen into the trap of trying to get too loud, and i've seen bands that everyone is trying to over power the others - the "by gawd, they're gonna hear me" syndrome, one guy cant get as loud and goes out and buys a 500w amp to keep up - endless cycle.

oh, you also need to know - if its the offenders' band - ie, most of the time the guy whos band it is, is the offender - then you just pack up and split, there is no room for anyone but the star.

Joe Miraglia · Post by **Joe Miraglia** » 8 Jul 2009 6:28 am

Bill, When you are playing a gig with the band and the people start asking the band or band leader, we want to hear more of the steel guitar-then you will play more parts. With the band I work with ,little by little I add more and more steel playing. It takes some time but you will get more playing time. Joe
www.willowcreekband.com

Ellis Miller · Post by **Ellis Miller** » 8 Jul 2009 6:38 am

The key here is whether the guitar player or the rest of the band know how to work with an additional piece that is not a guitar. My guess is they don't. Another possibity is that they just don't care.

My inclination would be to have a conversation about what is expected from the steel, where you are supposed to play, will the guitar back off during steel fills, solos etc?? After that conversation, you will know where you stand and whether the band will be worth your time and trouble.

Alan Brookes · Post by **Alan Brookes** » 8 Jul 2009 6:51 am

The only way to influence the way the band thinks is to play along, and maybe eventually they'll get the message. There are too many bands out there without a steel. We need to reverse the trend.

Cameron Tilbury · Post by **Cameron Tilbury** » 8 Jul 2009 6:57 am

This sort of leads to another question...does anyone ever do instrumental songs when they're playing as part of a band?
I was speaking with my steel mentor Bob Wingrove last weekend and the subject came up. He has put back together his old band, The Main Street Jamboree (google them). He was saying that in the old days, playing legions and fairs, they used to play a lot of instrumental songs and people loved dancing to them.

Anyone still doing this?

John Phinney · Post by **John Phinney** » 8 Jul 2009 7:03 am

I've encountered this situation in the "alt country" bands I play with. I proposed a "formula" to one of the band's I play with in order get the lead guitar player to make room for the PSG and to get him to listen. I suggested we approach every song with the "formula" as a default and change it up as the song requires. So far it's working, though I still hope it gets better.

Post by **Dave Mudgett** » 8 Jul 2009 7:13 am

Some discussion followed, I tried to explain my point of view. So, one guy says what he would like to hear is something like the steel parts in some of today’s music. Which means he does actually want to hear the steel at all. ... Although I have doubts they will change. I’ll give them a bit more time, just to see if they are really interested in making some adjustments in the way they do things, maybe change the song list a little. If not, I will move on.

If you don't think it sounds good and you're not getting enough room to develop musically, I think you're on the right track. Once I realize I'm not on the same page with people, I won't waste any more time with them. It sounds like you've had "the talk", and they just want to do it their way. Their privilege, of course, but I wouldn't bother.

No fun + No money + No musical development = Waste of time.

My opinions, naturally.

Donny Hinson · Post by **Donny Hinson** » 8 Jul 2009 7:30 am

Sounds like they're country-rock oriented and you're more of a classic country player.

Michael Robertson · Post by **Michael Robertson** » 8 Jul 2009 7:33 am

Been there, done that, far too many times.
I have not yet been able to find a fix for it.

Rick Campbell · Post by **Rick Campbell** » 8 Jul 2009 8:15 am

Welcome to the current age of country bands that think they're rock bands... Or don't know the difference. With today's top 40 FM radio and CMT videos, etc... you can't really blame them.

In any case, regardless of the music style, everyone is not suppose to play the lead lines at the same time. Trying to "out volume" another player is just about the most unprofessional thing a musician can do.

Bands that play steel guitar and fiddle friendly music are few and far between. There's some scattered around. Bill Ferguson, Nick Reed, and some others. Looks like we'll have to all move to Texas.

Steel shows are not the complete answer. Yeah, if you want to hear 95% instrumentals, but singing and backup licks are not the forte of most steel shows.

I've said this before, there's a lot more good steel players around than there is music for them to play.

I get some satisfaction in doing some real country in my little home studio. It won't amount to anything, but it get's some of the build up of music out of my system from time to time.

I wouldn't waste my time on these guys. It will burn you out and just make you hate it even more.

Jim Cohen · Post by **Jim Cohen** » 8 Jul 2009 8:18 am

You're wasting your time, IMHO. I've played with many guitarists who have no clue as to how to leave room for another voice; they are too enamored of their own sound to stop playing long enough to enjoy your contribution. I say dump 'em and move on.

Jim Eaton · Post by **Jim Eaton** » 8 Jul 2009 8:43 am

Every "good" guitar player I have ever worked with has understood the concept that there is plenty of music to allow both of us to play our part and leave room for the other one to play and this happens without having to talk about anything ever!
I'd just move on and leave these guys in that garage blowing their ear drums out of their heads and find some better players to hook up with.
JE:-)>

Steve Alcott · Post by **Steve Alcott** » 8 Jul 2009 8:47 am

A lot of guitarists, particularly bar band guitarists, have put in a lot of time being the only lead instrument as well as being the only chord/rhythm instrument. When they get into a situation that doesn't require them to play ALL the time, it's hard, or in some cases, impossible for them to break the habit. It'll take some prodding to get him to relax and not feel he has to carry the band, and if there's ego or just plain laziness involved, it will be a neverending struggle.

Tony Prior · Post by **Tony Prior** » 8 Jul 2009 9:03 am

The band as you stated has been together for a number of years, that says tons. I doubt you will change anything at this point, they are entrenched, the guitar player is entrenched. Good or bad , unless they are seeking to add another soloist such as a Steel nothing will change. You are actually stepping on the Guitar players turf, I doubt he even wants another lead Instrument. It may be too late for them, I don't think there is a cure.

If you do attend rehearsals it is not out of line to ask them what your role is in the band, let them talk tell you what they want. From there you can decide if it is a match or splitts'ville.

good luck

t

Jim Peters · Post by **Jim Peters** » 8 Jul 2009 9:07 am

I'm lucky in my country rock band to play with a decent guitarist/lead vocalist. he'll just yell something like "take it Jimmy" or whatever, and off I go! Our volume is low to mid, we have great equipment, a quiet drummer, and fun songs. I can only grow as a player, 'cause I'm just a novice on steel.

Somebody pinch me! JP

a link: http://www.cosmiccowboysmusic.com/

Clyde Mattocks · Post by **Clyde Mattocks** » 8 Jul 2009 9:16 am

Filled in with a band about a year ago and the lead guitar player did all the solos and fills, no space at all for me to play. I don't believe he'd have
given me a break in Steel Guitar Rag if they'd played it. At the end of the night, they handed me my money, thanked me profusely saying "Man, we couldn't have done it without you!"

Doug Beaumier · Post by **Doug Beaumier** » 8 Jul 2009 9:24 am

I've been through this a couple of times. They say they want a pedal steel in the band... and then they drown you out, and play their usual way, as if you are not even there. They really just want a pedal steel for "window dressing", and they have no idea how to share a stage with a pedal steel. I'd say... move on. Find a band where you are appreciated, and find musicians who know how to work as a team.

Larry Bressington · Post by **Larry Bressington** » 8 Jul 2009 9:25 am

Jump in there and blow his mind brother, maybe he will simmer down, play all over him, give him every chop you got, Been there a time or two with new players. Let him take a half solo,
then you kick in and 'lay one down'
Nature will take it's course from there on out.
It will work out, you will be alright, more freindships will be born.

Bill Moore · Post by **Bill Moore** » 8 Jul 2009 9:38 am

The lead guitarist is the band leader. Actually I've known him for many years, but haven't seen him for a long time, the last time I played with him was maybe 25 years ago. That band was much more country oriented. He hasn't played with a steel since. But he says he really wants to have a steel in the band. The other guitarist and drummer are coming from a rock background.

Steve Alcott wrote:A lot of guitarists, particularly bar band guitarists, have put in a lot of time being the only lead instrument as well as being the only chord/rhythm instrument. When they get into a situation that doesn't require them to play ALL the time, it's hard, or in some cases, impossible for them to break the habit. It'll take some prodding to get him to relax and not feel he has to carry the band, and if there's ego or just plain laziness involved, it will be a neverending struggle.

Steve, you are right, they are used to playing as a 4 piece, country/rock band. I have only put in about 3 hours with them at this point, and I know that it does take time. I seem to have this problem with nearly everyone I play with. Part of it is that, around here, the great majority of people in bands have never worked with a steel player.

They are decent musicians, they have 3 vocalists, and I do want to play more. The other band play I'm with is getting really lazy about wanting to play any gigs. Someone always has an excuse to not do anything. That, and the fact that I know this guy pretty well is the only reason that I would put in some more effort. Being the "new guy" is always a tough position to be in, hard to tell if and how much they might resent any more suggestions from me. They have been perfectly happy doing things their own way up to now.

I know this problem comes up all the time, it's just very irritating. I'll probably give them some time, see what happens, maybe something better will come along.

Tony, you might be right, I guess the best thing is to keep the expectations low, I hate to put too much into a losing cause.

Bill Moore · Post by **Bill Moore** » 8 Jul 2009 9:41 am

Jim Peters wrote:I'm lucky in my country rock band to play with a decent guitarist/lead vocalist. he'll just yell something like "take it Jimmy" or whatever, and off I go! Our volume is low to mid, we have great equipment, a quiet drummer, and fun songs. I can only grow as a player, 'cause I'm just a novice on steel.

Somebody pinch me! JP

a link: http://www.cosmiccowboysmusic.com/

Jim, it sounds like you have the ideal situation, be very thankful!!

Rick Campbell · Post by **Rick Campbell** » 8 Jul 2009 9:44 am

Here's another solution. Play fiddle. Then you'll get called for the gigs where they want a fiddler for square dances, but the band won't ask you to play much else. This is a true story: I've played gigs that when they'd have me do a fiddle tune for the square dancers, the steel and lead player would walk off the stage and go to the concession stand and leave me there with the drummer and bass player to play some stupid fiddle tune for 15 minutes. Not my idea of a fun gig. Texas is where the country is happening. Not to be confused with Texas Swing, it's there too. I'm not a huge TX Swing fan myself. I'm talking about country, Justin, Amber, Johnny, Jake, Bobby, Curtis, etc....

Mike Archer · Post by **Mike Archer** » 8 Jul 2009 10:13 am

for the very reasons you talked about is why
I am very carefull who I go out and play with these days I agree with Billy Carr
ive played with these rock players
for many years and I find its just not for me
if thats all they play
oh yes I can play rock on steel and tele
but I prefer country/country rock
but I do play with one band who play
a lot of tunes both rock/soul/pop/country
and they always give me all the parts I want
and they are pro players they do not overplay
and they treat me with respect
that is the difference right there
I do play steel shows and jams to me thats
a lot of fun..........Mike

Robert Harper · Post by **Robert Harper** » 8 Jul 2009 11:25 am

If it is just old fashioned selfishness, nothing is going change.

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