80% failure rate????

Jim Meiring · Post by **Jim Meiring** » 28 Nov 2007 6:26 am

If you really love the sound of the pedal steel your chances of at least playing a few simple tunes are nearly 100%. Many factors can limit your success, but perseverence pays off. I just looked at Jeff Newman's C6th Swingin part 2. He clearly states "be prepared to spend 5 or 6 years or more mastering these techniques" not to worry, times changes everything. Hang in there.

Post by **Dave Mudgett** » 28 Nov 2007 9:03 am

Sorry to pile on, but I also agree that 6-string and PSG have a lot in common - especially if one's guitar development included playing slide guitar, but even without that. The whole notion of fret/markers and position playing is the same. There may well be right-hand differences, but it's basically the same concept. So it's somewhat different physically, but mentally similar, as the Carter video amply demonstrates.

From my admittedly small sample, my sense is that a big part of the "failure" rate of 6-stringers is a lack of concrete, practical motivation. By this, I mean that, true or not, there seems to be the impression of a lack of "external" rewards for learning to play PSG in the form of lots of extra gigs, rock star adulation, and other "mainstream motivator" perks. Some people learn to play music purely out of the love of it. But for others, external motivation plays an important if not dominant factor - that sort of goes with the turf of "Rock Star Economics 101". I can't tell you how many guitar players I know who will spend an enormous amount of time learning something that holds great promise of external rewards, but if they can't see a way to apply something to their gigs, recordings - in short, something that can make them "more valuable" in the hustle-bustle muzic biz - they drop it like a hot potato. So to a large extent, a "non flavor-of-the-month" instrument like PSG self selects its player membership.

So although I think that PSG is not an easy instrument to play, I don't think it's just intrinsic difficulty that keeps people from learning. It's also very difficult to learn to play guitar well. If there were big external rewards to playing PSG, musicians would flock to it like vultures on a dead carcass. IMHO.

Even though I sense that the qualitative assertion that most people who start PSG give up before becoming competent, I agree with Bob H. that most "statistics" are made up out of thin air. I think it takes a non-mathematician/scientist to comfortably make up numbers with no real basis like that. So I have no idea what percentage "most" is.

Ray Minich · Post by **Ray Minich** » 28 Nov 2007 1:08 pm

I could not play the six string standard "fretted" guitar. Made my fingertips sore...
Yea, I know, what a wusssssss...

Geoff Barnes · Post by **Geoff Barnes** » 28 Nov 2007 1:42 pm

Well for me at 1 year in;
I was sitting down with a new piece last night, and I came to the realisation that I am learning patterns.
When I pick up a 6 string I play it and can comfortably move around that sucker any way I want to and make you believe it. But that is because I have worked it for over 40 years, and there would be something seriously wrong with me if I couldn’t play.
Back to PSG…. I see it as another guitar and I get the relationship/heritage. The difference being that as soon as you engage a pedal or lever, you have a whole new neck in front of you.
So I read the TAB, listen to the CDs and learn the patterns.
If someone were to walk into my studio and say “hey, let’s jam”.
I could find 1-4-5 ok in any key, with a few seconds of thought could grab the relative minor, and I could noodle about a bit, I have the scale patterns memorized, but my REAL understanding is limited. And I feel like I would be faking it.
I am hoping that I will get to the stage where I can just have at it and improvise, because this will allow me to write. At the moment it all feels like “painting by numbers”.

John Billings · Post by **John Billings** » 28 Nov 2007 4:31 pm

Eggs Ackley John! My instructor made one comment, and it opened up the world of steel guitar to me!

Ron Randall · Post by **Ron Randall** » 29 Nov 2007 12:29 pm

Interesting topic.

I know people that have mastered their instrument and then quit. Life changes, jobs, children, etc.

Maybe no different than getting a PhD in one field, and then becoming a fishing guide.

Ron

Tracy Sheehan · Post by **Tracy Sheehan** » 30 Nov 2007 2:53 am

I used to give steel and fiddle lessons.So many think they are going to master it in one day.I once had a woman ask me to give her son fiddle lessons.She then asked if a violin was hard to master.I told her yes and it sure surprised me when i mastered it.
Was hard to keep a straight face when i told her that.

Alan Brookes · Post by **Alan Brookes** » 30 Nov 2007 4:46 pm

What do the following instruments all have in common ?

Guitar, banjo, mandolin, autoharp, harmonica, dulcimer, lute, cittern, theorbo, fiddle, bass, concertina, balalaika, bouzuki, recorder, drums, bongos, organ...

THEY'RE ALL EASIER TO PLAY THAN PEDAL STEEL !

Stephen Gregory · Post by **Stephen Gregory** » 30 Nov 2007 5:13 pm

The problem with this entire conversation is that the question of whether we are a competent player or not, is open to debate and is just too subjective to measure. That being said, a formula would need to be developed that could measure a steel players competence, once that is accomplished then we could determine who has "learned" the instrument and to what level they truly qualify as a steel player. Using criteria such as these may prove that some who thought they were failures may in fact, be more accomplished then they believed. Using these rules may even prove some who thought they had learned the instrument actually don't measure up. Yes, a ridiculous premise this idea is so, let's quit worrying about who "can and who can't" or "I did and he/she didn't".

Bill Duve · Post by **Bill Duve** » 30 Nov 2007 5:26 pm

I agree Alan...
Pedal steel is not something that just anybody tries and those that do I have noticed are reasonably bright folk of some sort and those that started at childhood like Bobbe and did it all their lives for a living, Failure is only relevant to ones goals, ie:think big youll be big, think small youll be small, In business or otherwise..Small businessmen by the millions live the American dream, Big businessmen do likewise..They also each have what they call a level of failure....whether or not youre a failure with PSG is only related to what you started out to do in the first place....

Tony Prior · Post by **Tony Prior** » 1 Dec 2007 4:13 am

I was gonna be a brain surgeon then decided to play Steel instead..

Bob Hickish · Post by **Bob Hickish** » 1 Dec 2007 5:05 am

Tony Prior wrote:I was gonna be a brain surgeon then decided to play Steel instead..

Tony

That , with no doubt ! saved a lot of lives

Alan Brookes · Post by **Alan Brookes** » 1 Dec 2007 6:04 pm

At what stage does a steel wannabee become a steel player ?

If you put a million apes in front of steel guitars, will one of them eventually play "Harbor Lights" ? $:\$

Actually, most of them will, and 80% of them will play it at a steel guitar convention....

Joe Goldmark · Post by **Joe Goldmark** » 1 Dec 2007 6:23 pm

Most people love the sound of the steel (once they figure out what it is!). The main problem for beginners is that there's a whole lot of technique that has to be learned and practiced before anyone can sound good, and most people don't have the staying power. The next problem is that the same note can be played in many, many places on the neck, when you factor in 10 strings, knee levers, and pedals. On a piano, that note is only in one place!

Instrument companies will tell you that they market to the amateur, because professionals never have enough money to buy good new equipment (I realize this is a stereotype, but unfortunately there's truth in it).

Joe

Alan Brookes · Post by **Alan Brookes** » 2 Dec 2007 12:51 pm

Compare the pedal steel to a typewriter. If you told your typist that there were pedals and knee levers which would move all the keys to the right or left, would that help her type ?

George Redmon · Post by **George Redmon** » 2 Dec 2007 1:35 pm

John Fabian Wrote:

A pedal steel has a lot in common with a 6 string guitar. Most 6-stringers can see this with a little help.

That's fine for E9th i guess, and for those who don't play E9th? It's a limited shallow misleading statement.
I picked up a pedal steel after being left a Sho~Bud, by my father who passed away. Kept it in the closet for years. Got in the way, moved it, fell over the case, finally i took the thing out. Had half the strings missing on the top E9th neck. So i just played the C6th neck. So i started off on the "Wrong Neck" to begin with. Kept playing C6th, as i enjoy jazz.And the whinning of E9th gives me a migraine. Now i wouldn't think of switching to E9th. Bob Carlucci..count me amoung the middle group. I enjoy playing six string as well. Played six string Les Pauls for 34 years, as well as bass, and drums.

Bill McCloskey · Post by **Bill McCloskey** » 2 Dec 2007 2:10 pm

80% strikes me as an understatement. My guess is that it is closer to 90-95%. I can list me own reasons below as I put myself in the category that got beat.

After playing the guitar for 30 some years, I picked up a dobro and eventually moved on to lap steel and pedal steel. The things that killed me were:

1. Equipment: too damn heavy. too damn complicated, too damn difficult to tune. I've never been mechanically inclined, and like the Uilleann pipe (which I also tried to play) the equipment became a lifestyle in itself. Many like that. When I buy a car, I want to drive it, not tinker with it. Same with my instruments.
2. Music. I personally found that I was not attracted to the majority of the music that is played on the pedal steel. I don't like country. I don't like Hawaiian (which killed me on lap steel). And while there are many many many players who have transcended this problem and play in many styles, I found that the lack of support, teaching materials, and commrodary difficult. I like jazz. and as much as I tried to convince myself that the pedal steel could be the ultimate jazz machine, I could never really convince myself in the end.
3. Politics. While every form of music has practitioners that encompass the entire spectrum of political and religious philosophy, I eventually felt that the majority of the players were at the opposite end of my personal philosophy and while this shouldn't ultimately effect ones musical sensibility, I found that for me it eventually did. I just felt more comfortable hanging with my more left leaning, religiously agnostic new york jazz musician friends than I did with many of the more conservative practitioners of steel guitar that I conversed with on the steel guitar forum.

Ultimately, I fell more in love with the idea of steel guitar than the reality of steel guitar. Eventually I came back to my first love, which wasn't even guitar: it was jazz trumpet. I now possess a great trumpet, flugelhorn and soon a new vintage cornet. I am practicing nearly every free moment. I'm loving playing music again and having the time of my life.

I met great great friends and people playing steel: HowardR, Reece, and others. But in the end, it wasn't destined for me. I found my true love, after years of neglecting her.

I think others go through a similar experience.

Bob Carlucci · Post by **Bob Carlucci** » 2 Dec 2007 2:45 pm

Bill I appreciate your comments, but music and musicians tend to be apolitical and
non denominational when it relates to instruments or musical colleagues...

I can't see what righties or followers of Jesus
have to do with quitting the steel??.
I am a Christian right wing fascist but I have played for years with radical left socialist atheists and enjoyed thier company, loved the music we made together, and have and would welcome them to my home, and would have no problem entering thier homes.. They become friends as well as musical cohorts...
The vast majority of musicians I have played with over my life have not shared my religious or political views... WHAT does it matter????.. With all due respect Bill, that sounds like a cop out to me. Pedal steels are machines ,, they have no religious or political aspiration or affiliation

Alan Brookes · Post by **Alan Brookes** » 2 Dec 2007 2:59 pm

I agree with Bob. No-one asks to see a union card or a political registration when you sit down to play. I myself am an agnostic socialist, which is probably not the norm amongst steel guitarists, but it wouldn't bother me to sit in at a gospel session. Music is music. I happen to like country and western, hawaiian, western swing, blues, and all that the steel is normally played on, so I guess I'm lucky. If you don't like Japanese music, then you might not want to learn how to play the Koto. I know you can play any style of music on pedal steel, but it's still basically an Hawaiian/Country instrument, so maybe it's the wrong choice of instrument for you, Bill, as you implied.

Bill McCloskey · Post by **Bill McCloskey** » 2 Dec 2007 3:14 pm

Yes, Bob, my opinion only. I don't think I'm alone, but maybe I am. I will say that for most of my musician friends, religion and politics never comes up. My experience with steel guitarists is that it comes up constantly, at least on online forum. Your mileage may vary.

I'm not sure what I'm "copping out" to? I'm not even sure what it the term means in this context. I just illustrated my own reasons, and they are mine alone.

Yes, Alan, wrong choice of instrument. That being my point. I finally found my right instrument.

"but music and musicians tend to be apolitical and
non denominational when it relates to instruments or musical colleagues."

I would say that hardly equates with my own experience.

Bob Carlucci · Post by **Bob Carlucci** » 2 Dec 2007 5:29 pm

All points well taken Bill, and I certainly meant no offense... I can understand your feeling, I too tried instruments that did not work well for me personally... I'm glad you are digging your horn though!!!!....bob

Dan Meadows · Post by **Dan Meadows** » 2 Dec 2007 7:03 pm

I have yet to own or even play a pedal steel but I know
beyond any doubt whatsoever that I will succeed in becoming a decent player. I will do whatever it takes.
I have heard lots of great pedal steel music on recordings over the years so I know it CAN be done. Why
not me? I am a whole lot more mature, focused and diciplined than I was 20 0r 30 years ago so I have never been more prepared to start in becoming a good player which will be in March. I can't wait to one day master this wonderful and awesome instrument! I once thought I could never do the job I do everyday but we all learn what we WANT to learn and succeed in what is important to us. With the 40 plus years of hard core traditional country music I've listened to almost daily floating around in my head it's time to do what I've wanted to do for years. Get a pedal steel and learn to play what I love! I LOVE, LOVE, LOVE the sound of the pedal steel especially from the 50's through the 70's and the country music of that time period just as much. It's about time for some new material done late 50's style with me on pedal steel. Start introducing more of that sound to a younger generation. In 20 years I should be sounding pretty dang good by my estimations. I'm sure I'll cry when I finally get to learning it well because this is one instrument that can make a person fill with emotion. There can't possibly be a more wonderful, joy producing instrument than the pedal steel. I have always felt that. I'm glad I found the forum because even though I don't play yet I feel like you are all brothers to me because we have a common bond. Our love for the pedal steel guitar. Dan

Bob Carlucci · Post by **Bob Carlucci** » 3 Dec 2007 2:25 am

Well Dan, judging by your words I would say you will do just fine.. You have the "burn to learn" and that is much of the battle....when you get a steel, let us know, and you'll get a ton of help and encouragement right here... bob

John Fabian · Post by **John Fabian** » 3 Dec 2007 7:35 am

George Redmon wrote: That's fine for E9th i guess, and for those who don't play E9th? It's a limited shallow misleading statement.

That is your interpretation because you don't appear to understand the similarity.

The pedal steel is still, in most ways, a guitar. We accomplish things differently in a physical manner but the same music theory governs what we do.

Note that the C6 tuning and positions are also available starting at fret 0 on a 6 string guitar using a "C6" (or "Am7") chord formation. Seeing the "2 tunings" as parts of the whole instrument with different root positions (fret locations) tends to uncover the myriad of similarities between the two instruments.

Post by **Dave Mudgett** » 3 Dec 2007 8:31 am

I want to reflect on Bill M.'s comment in a slightly different way. I think politics and "what's hip" does play an important factor in what some musicians choose to play. I have had to disassociate from musicians in the past because my socio-political outlook was not consonant with the prevailing views. BTW, I've gotten it from both ends, left and right. Intolerance knows no political idealogy.

What one plays - and how one plays it - sometimes reflects much more than pure musical preference, but is an important part of a musician's personal identity and the way he or she wants to be perceived by the world-at-large. Musical performance groups are, of course, about music. But they are also, in a very real sense, a type of exclusive club. People are in fact judged by their associations, so I think this is a factor that can't be ignored.

All this goes to the motivation factor I talked about earlier. I think - like it or not - in the minds of most musicians and especially non-musicians out there in "radioland", PSG is quite tied to its traditional country music past and its trappings. That doesn't bother me a bit - it's music to me, and either I like it or not. But I think it is a negative association for many.

All my opinions, of course.

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