80% failure rate????

Bob Carlucci · Post by **Bob Carlucci** » 26 Nov 2007 3:45 pm

I have heard this figure bandied about at times, as well as this quote.. "Pedal Steel beats 80% of the guitarist that try and learn it?... anyone buy this figure???.

I know some wondefully talented musicians that were big flops on steel and sold them before thier egos were completely obliterated...

On the other hand ,I know some real hackers [yours truly among this motley collection] that picked it up well, and fairly quickly.. I see no logical pattern..
. I am still not sure steel is SOOO intimidating that 8 of 10 good musicians that try to learn it cannot do so... any thoughts???.... bob

Ron Page · Post by **Ron Page** » 26 Nov 2007 4:04 pm

While I appear destined for the 80% bracket here, I often think it would be easier had I known how to play another instrument well. However, it could be that just gives a player less incentive and allows them to fall back on that skill instead of pressing ahead with learning the PSG.

That number doesn't surprise me, although it sound like yet another simplistic 80-20 rule. I wonder which would have a higher failure rate-- steel only students or students with fluency on other instruments.

Bob Blair · Post by **Bob Blair** » 26 Nov 2007 4:10 pm

The 80% sounds like something pedal steel guitarists would make up! Most instruments probably appear to "beat" well over 80% of the people who dabble at them. But the truth is, the instrument doesn't beat anybody - not everybody has the time, inclination or dedication to get over whatever learning humps are associated with a particular instrument.

admin · Post by **b0b** » 26 Nov 2007 4:24 pm

I never got very good at standard 6-string guitar. I guess you could say it beat me. Pedal steel was no problem.

Bob Carlucci · Post by **Bob Carlucci** » 26 Nov 2007 4:40 pm

b0b... you are not alone... I personally am aware of four really fine steel players that don't play guitar at all,or you need to put clothespin on your nose if they do try to play!!!..3 at least are forumites, so I won't name names!!!... I revel in the depth and breadth of my mediocrity on both instruments...bob

Bryan Bradfield · Post by **Bryan Bradfield** » 26 Nov 2007 4:43 pm

Perhaps the steel guitar attracts people with short attention spans?

Andy Sandoval · Post by **Andy Sandoval** » 26 Nov 2007 5:02 pm

I think a lot of the folks that wind up in that 80% figure quite often do not posess even a basic knowledge of music theory that they can apply to any instrument much less a steel guitar. I'm not sure I'd be at my elementary level as basic as it is had I not started out on 6 string guitar then on to dobro,lap and pedal steel without my basic knowledge of music theory to guide me along.

Roger Rettig · Post by **Roger Rettig** » 26 Nov 2007 5:02 pm

I took up steel after almost twenty years of playing six-string. The big problem with me was dealing my obvious shortcomings on the 'new' instrument - it was hard to bear for a while, but I persevered. I did find that putting my feet to the fire and taking it out on gigs improved my learning-curve.

These days (thirty years on) there's still a big disparity in my abilities on each, but I suppose it's less pronounced and I have learned to accept that it'll always be a game of catch-up.

I have known at least three very fine guitar-players who fell at the first hurdle with psg; maybe they lacked the required passion...

RR

A. J. Schobert · Post by **A. J. Schobert** » 26 Nov 2007 5:27 pm

I am glad that number is so high, it makes more opportunity for the rest of us.

To learn a standard 6 string is so easy partly because teachers are everywhere, and yes they have alot better course's.

However the basics of the PSG can be taught quickly, now improving skills etc, that is a different story.

80% is high, I often wonder how many forum members actually play a steel (pedal or non), I have seen some guys that don't even play. Or for that matter how many forum members practice? So there may be some truth to this.

Dan Meadows · Post by **Dan Meadows** » 26 Nov 2007 5:36 pm

I have yet to play a pedal steel but my plans are to have one narrowed down to buy next March. I have played country Floyd style piano for years but when I ran across the Forum while searching for pedal steel info
a feeling hit me like a rock to the gut. It's hard to really explain but I knew then I would eventually buy a steel and I would (will) learn to play it decently. I
know the pedal steel is the one instrument that has been calling my name to learn for a lot of years but for whatever reason this is the right timing. Maybe I would have given up earlier in life I don't know. There is not a chance in this world I will not learn to play this beast when I get my first one. I love the sound of the pedal steel so much I will do WHATEVER it takes to make becoming a player a reality. Come what may I will be part of the Brotherhood, so to speak.

I love the Pedal Steel and (players) and all it has given to countless recordings.

Dan

Billy Carr · Post by **Billy Carr** » 26 Nov 2007 5:40 pm

Many, many players of other instruments try there hand at PSG. To be really good, in my opinion only, I think a person must be totally dedicated to PSG. It takes more than learning a few tabs and signature licks. It's an obession that lasts a lifetime if a player is a steelman. The 80% may actually not be a high enough percentage if you consider everybody that's tried PSG and stopped after a few years. It takes a lot of effort and time to study a lot of the greats in the PSG circles.

Kevin Hatton · Post by **Kevin Hatton** » 26 Nov 2007 5:56 pm

In my experience its AT LEAST 80%. I've seen master Telecaster players try to take up pedal steel and stop within one year. I have met some who told me that they tried to play it but couldn't understand how you could learn the darn thing.

Gary Shepherd · Post by **Gary Shepherd** » 26 Nov 2007 6:01 pm

When I first tried pedal steel about 15 to 20 years ago, I thought I was a pretty good musician. Guitar, bass, banjo, mandolin were my main instruments depending on what I was playing and with whom.

I also consider myself to be one of the smartest people I know. (Yes, I have some confidence.) That being said, pedal steel kicked my butt thoroughly for about the first 10 years. I tried it off and on and just couldn't get anywhere. Then one day, it just clicked and I understood it. The rest was a matter of refining my technique.

Maybe the light bulb turns on sooner for some people but I have a hard time believing that anywhere near a majority are successful at playing pedal steel. I know there are plenty of better pickers than me (especially on our instrument). But after several years of music theory in college any my considerable experience with many instruments, I have a really hard time accepting that the average musician could beat my playing skills on pedal steel. And I've struggled A LOT to get where I am with a long ways to go before I'm close to the skill level I'd like to reach.

James Cann · Post by **James Cann** » 26 Nov 2007 6:26 pm

I never got very good at standard 6-string guitar. I guess you could say it beat me. Pedal steel was no problem.

I'm squarely in your camp, b0b, and for it, all I could ever do with 6-(or 12-)string guitar was to strum chords. I'm constantly amazed at my ability on steel . . . overrated though it may well be.

Fred Shannon · Post by **Fred Shannon** » 26 Nov 2007 6:33 pm

DAN MEADOWS has the answer. I'll look forward to the day when I hear him play and I WILL hear him play. Someone with that much dedication and determination simply can't miss. He'll make it and I'll enjoy it when he does. How about you folks? Care to join us at the party?

Phred

Eric West · Post by **Eric West** » 26 Nov 2007 6:56 pm

This is just me.

Bud C said that when I started learning, it was going to be one or the other.

I virtually quit playing 6 string for 30 years.

Now I'm playing tele and studying anything I can with a vengance. Still playing gigs mainly on steel, and I'm more easily playing the PSG for the new excerizes I make my brain do learning tele.

I'd say like all other businesses, (in other words getting paid gigs) about 9 in ten fail in the first year, 8 in 10 of those fail in the second, and so on for about ten years.

I've known a couple guys locally, notably Paul Hirschman that is a guitar virtuoso, and took up steel successfully. About 5 other tele players I know tried it and just aren't going to get it.

A few local steel players, Tony Glassmann and Larry Behm, Pete Borak, Harley James, and Doug Jones, and myself all have either started playing more guitar, or pretty much started from scratch. For me it's just been the funnest thing I've done in decades. I shoulda done it sooner. After 3 months I was playing tele on songs with bands I was destroying. After a couple years of playing tele, I've been getting paid gigs on guitar alone.

It's my opinion that while you are learning PSG and try to continue to play guitar, your intonation won't develop as well on steel.

After thirty years, my psg intonation is about where it's going to always be, and I don't notice the difference. I've always tuned to exactly where the little dot is in the middle of the tuner, just like guitars, so I suppose that helps.

Just an observation or two. I don't know what conclusion I would draw.

EJL

Dan Meadows · Post by **Dan Meadows** » 26 Nov 2007 7:00 pm

You can be passionate about learning an instrument and
still give up I believe. Passion can mean enthusiasm,
desire or fondness to learn something and that must be present to a great degree but could it be that a person who overcomes the many obstacles of learning a formidable instrument like the pedal steel and becoming
very proficient at it they are wired that way from birth? One gives up though the effort they put in to it is enormous. One learns but hits a brick wall and never
can break through to get better though the effort is enormous. The last person has it click from the beginning and with the effort he puts into it he just gets better and better in a very short period of time and he can't fully explain why. I am wondering if the
make up of that person or, DNA if you will, plays a BIG part in who gives up and who not only succeeds but goes on to master it.

Dan

John Coffman · Post by **John Coffman** » 26 Nov 2007 7:14 pm

Coming from no former training in any music field or instrument I feel I have acheive a great deal. People with music theory have a much greater chance of picking up the scales and understanding the chord progession faster. I started in April of 2005 to really study and practice as much as my day job will allow. I have always believed if you study, practise and never give up anything is possible. I have found that each of us have physical and mental challenges to over come. Even with these challenges each of us have the skills to preform at a reasonable level. I never started playing the steel to become a Buddy Emmons etc. I just want to learn, enjoy and become as good as I possibly can.

I keep on practising and some days I feel I have taken three steps back then a week later I make one of those huge jumps forward.

As for 80% failure rate as it does seem high I think is right on.

Terry Winter · Post by **Terry Winter** » 26 Nov 2007 7:58 pm

This is a good topic! I played percussion in the school band but found that learning bass guitar came very easy! Can do little more than strum a 6 string(my two boys can play guitar like a darn) but when I started Steel; boy did that become a challenge as bass is on beat and steel is a lot of inbetween playing but I would not switch to anything else as it is the most increadible wonderful instrament out there!! It took at least two years before any kind of light went on in my learning curve. 80% is probably right on.

Dave Stagner · Post by **Dave Stagner** » 26 Nov 2007 8:19 pm

And here I was wondering how to play steel and not become obsessed with it! I've played six-string for twenty-odd years, and play at least some nearly every day, but since I got the PSG, I don't want to play anything else. I've been playing lap for a couple of years now and gotten sort of halfway decent at it, but still not up to my six-string level. I heard a GOOD lap player the other day at the guitar store, and it was HUMBLING.

Ben Hoare · Post by **Ben Hoare** » 26 Nov 2007 9:41 pm

I have come from a guitar background before steel and I think that the way I learned music was helpful in one respect because once I knew where the notes were I could find the scales/chords/licks etc.But I have found and still find the discipline of the steel very challenging.Things like inntonation ,a straight bar,tone,the use of the volume pedal etc.These things take a great deal of practise and patience to develope a great sound because whether you try to play the right notes if your technique is bad you still sound bad and steel can be unforgiving.I think it comes down to the respect you have for the steel and thats where many fail because they dont give the instrument respect it deserves .Im enjoying the ride of learning because the steel is one of the most beautiful instruments Ive heard .If you expect to sit at the steel and shortly after be treated as a great player because you know music your destined for failure and it takes some humility and alot of respect to become a baby again when you know a few things on another instrument.I don't know %'s but this would be why it would be easy for me to quit if I didn't love it so much.I think if you fall in love with the instrument first what else can you do but perservere and many fail 'cause the challenge outweigh's the love.And lets face it,who hasn't watched a fiddle or guitar player set up and sit down for a beer while your still up there so you gotta want to do it.

Bob Hoffnar · Post by **Bob Hoffnar** » 26 Nov 2007 10:43 pm

Studies have shown that 84% of all percentages were made up on the spot !

Tony Prior · Post by **Tony Prior** » 27 Nov 2007 2:31 am

I think the issue is more related to the "WANNA" factor. I suspect there are many curious folks who have some interest but they are not died in the wool with "I gotta do this"...

Most Guitar players have a modern well know influence that there friends can identify with, such as Clapton....and that is probably just as important.

80% seems low !

David Mason · Post by **David Mason** » 27 Nov 2007 2:38 am

I guess it really lies in your definitions of what getting "beat" means, what "getting it" means etc. - I don't plan to quit playing six-string after 35 years, in fact I'm taking up bass again; I also never plan to sell my steel, unless my arms fall off. I've been playing something-or-another long enough to know that you need to have the instrument around, set-up, if you're going to get better at it - just don't quit completely, ever. I can record parts with the steel that I've worked up, and I can do it better now than I could a year or two or five years ago.

If I say "I'll never BEAT Buddy Emmons" then I guess it's already "beat" me; if I wake up every morning and say "this thing's kind of neat, guess I'll poke at it some", does that mean I've "beat" it? It's not my enemy, you know....

.. usually....

Howard Tate · Post by **Howard Tate** » 27 Nov 2007 3:17 am

I wouldn't be surprised if the 80/20 figure applied to all instruments. You have to have a great love for any instrument to stand the awful noise you make while learning, especially on a fretless instrument. I play a few instruments, but failed miserably on fiddle. Just couldn't stand the noise I was making with that awkward bow.