Help with a mix

basilh · Post by **basilh** » 25 Nov 2006 1:51 pm

Any comments on the type of reverb YOU would use on the vocals would be MOST appreciated. I know that this isn't the right one and there's probably too much, bear in mind my limitations re equipment.

Mac G5 loaded and Logic Pro 7 with (extra processor for the FULL suite of UAD (Universal Audio) plug-ins) plus the resident ones that are found within Logic.. a Lexon PCM-91 and a Yamaha SPX 90 are the ONLY externals (and NOT in use on this mix)
http://www.waikiki-islanders.com/assets/Lookatus.mp3

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Dave Boothroyd · Post by **Dave Boothroyd** » 26 Nov 2006 3:18 am

I can't really answer this for you, but I can tell you the two ways I might go about it.
Firstly the song and overall sound is very reminiscent of the golden age of Irish showband Country, so I might base the Vocal reverb on that era and go for one of the gorgeous plate reverbs on the Yamaha outboard.
On the other hand, if you take the old married couple theme as the basis, then I'd probably go for a small, warm, room reverb to make the vox sound very one-to-one.
There is a plug-in on Logic Pro called something like "Space designer" that allows you to model rooms very nicely.
I'd try to get the same living room ambience on the fiddle, but leave the steel in a bigger colder ambience, much as you have it on the MP3 - a sort of "heaven waiting" comment on the story.
But that's just my way, I can't decide for you, though maybe the concept of using ambience as part of the story-telling in a song might help.
Cheers
Dave

basilh · Post by **basilh** » 26 Nov 2006 4:10 am

Thanks Dave, I have treid various "Plate" simulations but I don't think that's the way within 'Space Designer' primarily because you CAN'T edit the presets in Space designer, at least I can't maybe I should RTFM !!

The warm close-up approach is what you suggest and I concur, just don't like the Lexicon or the SPX-90, so I'm waiting to get an expansion card that will give me MORE processing with the Universal Audio plug-ins, I have the Full suite, BUT on it's own, the Neve 33609 uses half the power of the UAD card.
I Like the Dreamverb and RealVerb Pro and the Plate 140 is suposedly better than the actual EMT plate it models (Quieter) I don't know so much, I find a little hiss has a subliminal effect.

so far I've managed to accumulate these UAD plug-in's
1176LN
1176SE
Boss CE-1
Cambridge EQ
CS-1
DreamVerb
Fairchild 670
LA-2A
Neve 1073
Neve 1081
Neve 33609
Nigel
Plate 140
Precision EQ
Precision Limiter
Precision
Multband
Pultec EQP-1A
Pultec Pro
RealVerb Pro
Roland
Dimension D
Roland
RE-201

Any comments about any of them ?

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[This message was edited by basilh on 26 November 2006 at 04:13 AM.]

Dave Boothroyd · Post by **Dave Boothroyd** » 26 Nov 2006 6:50 am

I'll have a word with Paul White, who edits Sound on Sound, and see how he would rate your list.
Another Paul, my colleague who is a dedicated Logic user swears by the TC Powercore unit, which carries and processes all his many plug-ins, and the SSL Duende has had very good reviews too- and I've heard one and it really does give that SSL/Abbey Road sound.
For the close and warm effect, I'd be looking for one of the new convolution reverbs, using resynthesis to reproduce the reflections of a real room. You could even record your own room as a source file, or take a trip to Chatsworth for something a bit grander!
I'll email PW in the week and let you know what he says.
Cheers
Dave

David L. Donald · Post by **David L. Donald** » 26 Nov 2006 9:48 am

OK, best guess, it's been rendered worse by mp3'ing it.

If there were just less send it would work better.
With the steel it's really sweet.

The 300-500 hz range is too loud in the reverb body.
It needs more damping, and eq high pass rolled upwards a bit.

I would also make the pre delay shorter.
The room is too present for the tail.
You can mixe between those ratios I guess.

Time sounds like 2 seconds or more.

In general I like smaller rooms (early reflections) with longer tails,
or bigger rooms with smaller tails, or much lower.

Imagine you are singing on a nice marble pillar patio,
out into a lawn 50 feet over,
that bounces off several cabana's and comes back.

Now think that when designing the reverb.

This sounds too mainly loud a send,
but since it seems to work well for other things,
Maybe adding a different one for a
short room on the lead vocal, with short decay,

and sending this one less would give the closeness,
AND this long warm tail, that works well for the instruments.

Adding another delay on the vocal
mixed to this one can give you
the original longer room reflection,
backed off,
and add the closeness to the long way off feel.

Talking reverbs and reverb philosopies is like;
Asking how do you get great TONE on steel guitar.

By the way I loved your tone.

[This message was edited by David L. Donald on 26 November 2006 at 09:54 AM.]

Glenn Austin · Post by **Glenn Austin** » 26 Nov 2006 6:03 pm

Baz, I would compress the vocal a bit more, with the 1176 and also ride the vocal fader in the mix to even out between the softer and louder parts, and have the entire vocal track sit a little lower in the mix. This in itself will hide the "boingyness" ,for lack of a better word, of the reverb, and give the vocal a more close up, warmer sound. Definitely lower the send level to the reverb.

Personally, I would go for a vocal plate with a shorter reverb time. As a general rule, reverb times should match the tempo of the song to a certain extent. Longer reverbs tend to wash things out. Start with a reverb preset and tweak it to your taste.

A lot of the warm, close up, classic vocals we have heard over the years have little or no reverb on them oddly enough. Your singer has a nice, rich tone of voice, so I think she should have something to set her voice apart from all the other instruments. As it stands now, the mix sounds like everybody is sharing the same reverb preset.

I like your steel playing too. I wouldn't change anything else in the mix, just the treatment of the voice over.

Good luck, May the force be with you.

basilh · Post by **basilh** » 26 Nov 2006 6:36 pm

Thanks a a million Glenn, David and Dave for ALL the help so far.
I'll try later today and use the UAD Plate 140.
with as little send as makes it just noticeable.
BTW did any of you read about the UAD Plate 140's pedigree ?

UA successfully modeled our three EMTs so well that in a blindfold test we could not tell the difference! Our 500-pound classic plate reverbs are now available to anyone in a...dare I say--plug-in. ““ John Cuniberti – The Plant Recording Studios, Sausalito

I can tell you that the Neve, Pultec, Cambridge and Fairchild are also so close to the originals that I grew up with.[This message was edited by basilh on 26 November 2006 at 06:37 PM.]

David L. Donald · Post by **David L. Donald** » 26 Nov 2006 7:17 pm

Try the EMT at around 1.1- 1.3 decay time.

Roll off the low end or eq the lower mids to taste.

Try to create a intimate room in front of
the 'HALL' the band is in.

Close your eyes and think the sound is
a picture with persepctive.
Let your minds EAR draw the picture for you,
and then you can manipulate that picture.

The compression suggested might help,
but go light with it.
The sound is generally pretty even on her voice.
Watch out for her loudest parts getting strident.
You also might look at EQ before and after the compression.
Each way has very different effects.

I tend to go EQ before compression.
It then boosts the freqs you want,
but then doesn't let them get to out of hand.
[This message was edited by David L. Donald on 28 November 2006 at 01:22 AM.]

Bob Martin · Post by **Bob Martin** » 2 Dec 2006 11:14 pm

Hi basilh, from what I heard it sounded killer, although I love the sound of the vocals they got in the 60's and 70's. I love the long lush reverb that almost soaked up all of the track but as you know that's not the way they mix these days.

I'm not saying that the verb over powered the vocal but I am saying that I loved the way it soaked the whole vocal track with a big fat hall sound putting the vocal in a complete different room/hall than the rest of the band.

In years gone by if you listen to the mixes that came out of Nashville you will find that it happened that way a lot.

It seems that todays vocals are more of a mix in a very small room by themselves. They still separate them (vocals)from the rest of the band just not in a great big old hall.

Now mind you that's just the way my tired old ear hears it and it's not the way someone else might hear it

I love the way your vocal sets in the mix so keep up the good work pal!

Bob

basilh · Post by **basilh** » 4 Dec 2006 6:01 pm

Scott Shipley and Aaron Till were on the session, GREAT players,[This message was edited by basilh on 08 December 2006 at 03:13 AM.]

Steve Stallings · Post by **Steve Stallings** » 5 Dec 2006 10:03 am

I think that the amount of reverb being used is a bit too much. This is exacerbating a sibilence issue with the lead singer. To me, the best reverb is very natural sounding.
Are you using a deessor of any kind? Sideband?

I'm listening on a computer thru some inexpensive AKG headphones, so there is very little bottom end in the mix. I'm gonna take a look at this mix in Span later this evening, but overall it sounds good.

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Steve Stallings
The Songs

basilh · Post by **basilh** » 7 Dec 2006 3:20 pm

At last the final result :-
Bob Brolly's new album, (order preserved) with SUBSTANTIAL contributions from Scott Shipley and Aaron Till.

ST = Baz
El Gt = Scott
Fid = Aaron

For me the standout tracks are :-
(IN MY order of preference)
1/. Someday You'll Call My Name,
2/. Bobby McGee,
3/. Look at Us,
4/. Seven Spanish Angels,
5/. Love Play,
6/. If I had My Life etc.

What would be YOUR favourites ?

The ACTUAL Running order is this:-

Don't Be Cruel
(ST, El Gt, Fid)

He'll Have to Go
(Fid)

Listen to the Rhythm of the Falling Rain
(ST)

Look at Us
(ST, Fid)

Lovely Leitrim, Any Tipperary Town, Slaney Valley
(ST)

Seven Spanish angels
(ST, El Gt, Fid)

Wonderful Tonight
(El Gt)

Me and Bobby McGee
(ST, El Gt, Fid)

If I Had my Life to Live Over Again
(ST, El Gt, Fid)

Someday You'll Call My Name
(ST, El Gt, Fid)

Love Play
(ST, El Gt, Fid)

Silver Wings
(ST, El Gt, Fid)

Produced and engineered by Basil Henriques
( I also played bass, Spanish guitar, acoustic rhythms, dobro. Also various other sounds via my midi guitar )
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[This message was edited by basilh on 08 December 2006 at 03:14 AM.]

Steve Stallings · Post by **Steve Stallings** » 8 Dec 2006 6:33 am

Nice...

My fav... "If I had my life to live over again"

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Steve Stallings
The Songs

Per Berner · Post by **Per Berner** » 10 Dec 2006 2:16 am

Very smooth and pleasant sounding over all! Nice sure is the word, a sort of mid-to-late sixties Nashville sound. The instrumental mix couldn't sound better in any way, but IMHO there's a tiny little bit too much vocal reverb.

To me, too much reverb (way more than on these tracks) is forever associated with dozens of third-rate Swedish dance bands (playing their "country music with a German beat") who try to hide their bad vocals and even worse playing by drenching everything in delay and reverb; a sound I find hard to endure. Even Willie Nelson did an album a couple of years ago, that was totally ruined by way too much vocal reverb. If there's a choice between too dry and too wet, I'll take too dry anytime.

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´75 Emmons p/p D10 8+4, '72 AWH Custom D10 8+3, '06 Hybrid Zum SD10 4+5 , Peavey Nashville 1000

basilh · Post by **basilh** » 10 Dec 2006 2:50 am

Thanks Per, the singer was the PAYMASTER, and the amount of vocal reverb was HIS choice.
Late sixties early seventies WAS the intention. I'm glad we conveyed that.

basilh · Post by **basilh** » 10 Dec 2006 2:58 am

Steve, thanks for the comments, as for the sibilance issue, I'm aware of it and trying to compromise.

Are you using a deessor of any kind? Sideband?

I'm using Logic Pro with all the plug-ins that are available. Pretty much every type of outboard ancillary that there ever was. ?

How far do you reduce sibilance before the 'esses and tees and ch's' suffer.
I may be wrong, but what one perceives as excessive, another may find acceptable.
Don't get me wrong Steve, I AGREE with you regarding the amount of sibilance being an issue, I think if I roll of the top end in the plate, it may reduce the emphasis somewhat.

basilh · Post by **basilh** » 10 Dec 2006 3:15 am

For all you Mac owners, I've discovered another slight problem, I bought ANOTHER UAD card to increase the processing power of the UAD plug-ins.
Big mistake. I didn't check the pci bus. no room, all the slots are full. I forgot that the graphics card (GeForce 6800 Ultra) to drive the two 30" monitors uses TWO slots space because of the size of the cooling fan. The MOTU card for the 3 HD 192

uses one slot and the EXISTING UAD card the remaining slot. NO ROOM for another.

Solution, buy a pci expansion bay, BUT beware it MUST be 64 bit or the plug-ins won't work. Over here a 64 bit pci expansion bay costs almost as much as a new G5 .

[This message was edited by basilh on 10 December 2006 at 03:17 AM.]

basilh · Post by **basilh** » 10 Dec 2006 4:15 am

My Favourites are in this order :-

For me the standout tracks are :-
(IN MY order of preference)
1/. Someday You'll Call My Name

2/. Me and Bobby McGee

3/. Look at Us

4/. Don't Be Cruel

5/. Love Play

6/. If I Had my Life to Live Over Again

7/. Seven Spanish angels

I'd love to hear what Scott or Aaron think.

David L. Donald · Post by **David L. Donald** » 14 Dec 2006 9:02 am

Bas, it has that classic 60's country sound to it, but better highs.

The reverb on 'Someday You'll Call My Name' is big,
but more like a very nice church or country hall now.
less 'woof' building up in the big room, than before.

'If I had my life', sounds a bit more school aduitorium brightness to the reverb.
But a nice dreamy quality to it.

Don't Be Cruel' has a more laid back reverb, but it DOES resemble that "Sun Sound"
I hear a close, relatively muted front stage,
and then the big room coming back atchya.

I would warmed and brightened the acoustic guitar a bit on it,
but this is nit picking...

Nice job, the client should be quite happy!

[This message was edited by David L. Donald on 15 December 2006 at 02:07 AM.]