stacked pedals?

[Tim Toberer]

I know there were a few Wright guitars made with these or at least one (Vance Terry). This seems difficult to pull off, but after playing my 8 pedal guitar for a while, I am thinking this could be something to consider. Having 2 rows one over the other would allow for much less movement to get to the pedals and allow for more combinations not possible with a single row of 8. Anyone have any pictures of guitars with 2 rows? I am not sure if this would work at all, just thinking about it as a puzzle. Would be very tricky! Any ideas welcome.

[Ross Shafer]

This kinda stuff gives me nightmares!

[Ian Worley]

Like the black keys on a piano! Might be useful when you're playing with a horn section

[Tony Glassman]

We built one for Al Petty during my employment at Sierra back in the mid 70’s. It took a bunch of custom modification to build & was an absolute beast to set up. I think it had 16 pedals & 6 or 7 knee-levers. Lifting it off the work bench was a Herculean task.

[Ivan Funk]

How would you get the leverage point of the pedal rod attachment to be the same?
The top row would be stiff/ short travel and the bottom row would be easy/long travel. Maybe it wouldn't matter.
Yeah a nightmare good point Ross lol.

I remember seeing photos of a heel-toe arrangement (was that the Wright you mentioned?) but I like the idea of all toe instead.
What to do at the top end of the pedal rods is a whole different challenge.
Here's a crude sketch for a U12:

[Ivan Funk]

I found this old post.
I see they solved the equal leverage problem by curling the top of the pedal structure back around like a C shape. Crazy.
https://bb.steelguitarforum.com/viewtop ... row+pedals

[Doug Beaumier]

That was Al Petty with his 21 pedal setup. He had Dekley build him a similar one around 1979, a D-12 with 20 "heel and toe" pedals and 5 knee levers!

[Tim Toberer]

That was Al Petty with his 21 pedal setup. He had Dekley build him a similar one around 1979, a D-12 with 20 "heel and toe" pedals and 5 knee levers!

Any recordings of him playing it?

Absolutely would become a nightmare with 20 pedals and+knees. I just can't see anyone really needing that, more power to you if you do! For my copedant I am pretty set with 8 pedals and no knee levers. The 4 left pedals are double lowers and the 4 right pedals are double raises. I don't know how to write out a copedant sorry this is it basically it. The E's are raised to F and lowered to D# , the C#'s are raised to D and lowered to C etc etc. The tuning is a diminished 7 chord.

D# - E - F
C - C# - D
A - A# - B
F# - G - G#
D# - E - F
C - C# - D
A - A# - B
F# - G - G#

I was thinking the right 4 pedals would be the upper row. All double raises could be done with cables possibly. Most of the action is done with the 4 left lowering pedals. Each lower makes the rt of a 7th chord, 2 adjacent lowers makes a 6 chord (min7). 3 lowers make a 9th or half diminished. No pedals is diminished etc. That covers 90% of Rock, Pop, Country, Blues and lately my attempt at Dixieland. To do the Augmented and Sus. and Major 7th chords I will add a pedal on the right, or behind the bar pull or maybe a slant. Lots of learning to do, but making the jump to the far right pedals is a bit tricky. Like going from a 6th to a Maj 7th or if the 5th is on top and you want to raise it, you jump up to pedal 8 to raise it. 2 rows would be nice, just not sure if its worth the effort!

[Andy DePaule]

Comes a time when what you need is not another pedal, knee lever or gadget.
What you really need is more practice with what you have.

[Doug Beaumier]

I don’t know of any recordings of Al playing his heel and toe pedal steel, but I did hear him play live in 1981 at Scotty’s convention and he sounded excellent. He played and sang “The Devil Went Down to Georgia” and he changed the lyrics from “fiddle” to “steel”. And he played the fiddle parts on steel, those minor scale patterns on the upper strings, very clean and fast. I was very impressed.
I’m pretty sure he was playing his Sierra on the show, although I was not close to the stage when he was playing and it was over 40 years ago.

Here’s a forum post from 2012:

When I went to work for Al in 1980 he had a Sho Bud. He had a Dekley for a few months then went to Sierra sometime in 1981. All were double necks with 21 pedals. At the 1981 convention Sierra introduced the Al Petty model. If I remember correctly it was a single neck with 3 toe and 2 heel pedals. I'm not sure what happened to that but it obviously didn't catch on.

[Doug Beaumier]

Comes a time when what you need is not another pedal, knee lever or gadget.
What you really need is more practice with what you have.

I agree, Andy. The pedal steel does not need more complication, it needs less.

[Andy DePaule]

Comes a time when what you need is not another pedal, knee lever or gadget.
What you really need is more practice with what you have.

I agree, Andy. The pedal steel does not need more complication, it needs less.

Coming up on 50 years of playing PSG and now hardly able any more.
However from my playing years and now my favorite PSG has E6/9th with 5&5. Still well over 90% of my playing was on 2 pedals and 3 knee levers.
I'm sure if I were still playing out and if I had a PSG with 2&3 no one would care.

[Erv Niehaus]

Take a lesson from Lloyd Green.
Less is more.
Erv

[Tim Toberer]

The pedal steel does not need more complication, it needs less.

I completely agree with this, but I would argue that if a stacked pedal arrangement makes a pedal steel easier to play, it is making it less complicated. What I am trying to do is not comparable to the previous guitars mentioned. I use a single neck 8 string tuning, not really overly complicated when you think that it is normal to play a D-10 or S-12. I personally think the standard modern pedal steel is somewhat ridiculous. I do love listening to good players, and looking at the elegant designs, but it's not my object of desire.

I appreciate the input and this is just a general discussion. For my situation specifically I believe this could worth considering. The tuning I use requires at least 4 pedals, but 8 makes it fully chromatic. 4 double 1/2 step lowers and 4 double 1/2 step raises. I already have 8 pedals, it is just hard to make the jump for some changes. For some chords 3 pedals are depressed. I am looking for detailed pictures of any contraptions that accomplished this or any helpful advice or ideas.

[Erv Niehaus]

Tim,
You play an 8 string pedal steel?
Erv

[Tim Toberer]

Tim,
You play an 8 string pedal steel?
Erv

I am trying to! This is my 1st guitar https://bb.steelguitarforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=388944.
I have another one about 80% done. I have almost learned a few more complicated tunes and can fake my way through some simple stuff. I have been playing lap steel for a few years so that helps, mostly A6.
To explain the tuning a bit more.. Pedals 1&2 down are A6 and pedals 2&3 down are C6. Pedal 2 down is A7, pedal 3 down is C7. This continues up the neck so all the inversions are there. It is a chromatic tuning and diminished chords are naturally inverting themselves, so this is the basis of the tuning. There are 4 notes in the tuning pedals 1-4 correspond to lowering these notes, pedals 5-8 correspond to raising these notes.

Some tricky pedal movements examples.. 1st position F#6 chord pedals 1 and 4 depressed. If you want to play F#M7 your foot jumps from pedal 4 to pedal 8 raising the 6 to the M7. Another example... I spent the last few days working on Someday You'll Be Sorry (old jazz tune). I wanted to see if I could utilize more of the tuning, and am most of the way there at least with the chords. The A part ends with going from Bb7 to Bb7#5 so I am playing this with the 5 on top and I have to jump my foot way over to pedal 8 for half a bar. It's easier to just do a pull behind the bar. The stacked pedal idea seems pretty far fetched at this point, but I am trying to see if it may be possible.

This tuning has lots of potential. The only other person I know of using a similar tuning is Basil Henriques, but his is more based on A7.

[Ross Shafer]

plain and simple truth....the more crap you shove under a pedal steel, the more potential for issues and the more compromises neccesary when it comes to optimum setup.

Ask yourself..."what would Lloyd do?" (3 pedals 3 knees I think) or "what would Russ Pahl do" (2 pedals 4 knees if I recall correctly). Nothing wrong with moving the bar and including slants....trying to have a pedal/lever for every thing is a fools errand.

Staggered pedals.....ppffft!

OK, off my soapbox and onto the back roads of Sonoma County for a mental health moto! Have a nice Sunday y'all!

[Doug Beaumier]

...the more crap you shove under a pedal steel, the more potential for issues and the more compromises neccesary when it comes to optimum setup... Nothing wrong with moving the bar and including slants....trying to have a pedal/lever for every thing is a fools errand.

I agree with that, Ross.

[Doug Beaumier]

I have no experience with E9 or standard C6 and I don't really see myself going that direction.

You can put any tuning on a 10-string pedal steel guitar and you can triple raise or lower any string.

The tuning I use requires at least 4 pedals, but 8 makes it fully chromatic.

A single-neck 10-string PSG with 3 pedals and 5 knee levers will give you the 8 changes you need to make your tuning "fully chromatic".

I would say, sell the 8-string and buy a 10-string. That seems a lot easier than trying to "Rube Goldberg" something together for your 8-string.

[Tim Toberer]

I have no experience with E9 or standard C6 and I don't really see myself going that direction.

You can put any tuning on a 10-string pedal steel guitar and you can triple raise or lower any string.

The tuning I use requires at least 4 pedals, but 8 makes it fully chromatic.

A single-neck 10-string PSG with 3 pedals and 5 knee levers will give you the 8 changes you need to make your tuning "fully chromatic".

I would say, sell the 8-string and buy a 10-string. That seems a lot easier than trying to "Rube Goldberg" something together for your 8-string, unless you enjoy tinkering with mechanical things.

I am well aware of the capabilities of the modern 10 string pedal steel. If it isn't obvious, yes I enjoy building and tinkering. While my skills are nowhere near some of the brilliant builders on this forum I am happy to share the same space and believe that at least some people find my efforts inspiring. I find that comparing my instrument to some kind of Pee Wee Herman type machine(RIP) insulting. Your comments say more about you than they do about me.

[Doug Beaumier]

Tim, you said... "Any ideas welcome."

So my idea was (and is) sell your 8-string and buy a 10-string. And put your tuning on it. Problem solved.

[Erv Niehaus]

Doug,
You're right on.
Erv

[Doug Beaumier]

All I'll say is, this idea of stacked pedals has been tried and rejected by the pedal steel community. That's why there is little to no support of it here.

[Ross Shafer]

Sorry Tim

[J D Sauser]

I am always toying with the idea of stacked pedal approach.
Sierra and Wrights had them.

Al Petty, Julian Tharpe, Vance Terry and who else, Gene Fields maybe?
I BELIEVE at one some point Gene Fields had a few extended heel pedals on one of his guitars too.

I think that 1 or 2 heel pedals could be made to be practical without being more of an encumbrance or "stunt".

Doug Beaumier is right... with a 12 or 12 string (example C6th) being almost diatonic or close to a D-Dorian lineup (since the introduction of the "D"-string (and Maurice Anderson and some of his follower including myself now have a low D instead of the low C too)) even just a traditional BE 5P & 1K setup creates all 12 degrees and some (like the upper "B" with P4, P7 and the K)) several times over. I got 6 P and 8 K on my (non-universal) S12 C6th and I could not think of any more changes that would be worth the hardware.

Still, ACCESS and the ability of combining leads to difficult trade-off-evaluations. I believe to have made most sensate combinations possible for ME on my setup by moving some traditionally pedaled changes to levers and vice versa. Tuning has been a challenge and I guess Al's and Julian Tharpe's may have faces some of these issues.

Still, a heel pedal or two, repeating a change or only half a change (only on one string instead in pairs) near other pedals, could seem attractive.

... and then, running down the highway with all the pedals in the world, yes, Lloyd will still peddle past most us on the emergency lane. "meep meep!"

... J-D.