12 or ten string pedal steel.

Johnie King · Post by **Johnie King** » 25 Jul 2023 5:39 pm

Mr. Emmons thoughts on 12 string steel.
Screen shot of a post here on the forum.

I had a customer come by today that had his heart set on trading me his 12 string Mullen 7 an 5 steel for my double 10 :::: 8 an 7 Mullen.

The problem I had my customer Dwight a young person has spent two years playing 12 string b6 an he plays very well an gigs regularly in North Carolina I suggested he continue
Playing his 12 string.

I have read here on the forum that many pro players wish they had started there pedal steel journey on 12 string.

Then there’s Johnny Cox he has spent many years developing a 12 string tuning .
Johnny had a three neck Zum steel , know Johnny has a video showing how his 12 string new MSA copeadent has all the changes that his three neck Zum had.

Also Randy Beavers seems to get all the C 6th sound an classical music sound that any Musician
Would consider very good on a Emmons push pull ten string 3 an 4 setup.

Then there’s Julian Tharps steel playing on a 14 string steel , Julian could make a hot Tele player blush.

Just thinking out loud

Fred Treece · Post by **Fred Treece** » 26 Jul 2023 9:04 am

I have a link to that post in my internet bookmarks. Have read it several times.

After playing 12-string E9 for 3 years now, it’s what I would have started on had I known I was going to keep at it like my life depended on it. Budget concerns led me to opt for starting on an S10.

I have also been watching the Johnny Cox S12 D13 discussions with interest. For myself, I believe an 8+7 configuration would be overloading my operating system. I am very happy with my current 5+5, but might be up for one more addition, as well as perhaps a change to one existing pedal.

Chris Brooks · Post by **Chris Brooks** » 26 Jul 2023 10:04 am

Like Fred I play an extended E9 12 string. I have 2 extra pedals and 6 levers. It's enough to keep me busy for another lifetime. And I can still carry the guitar around to gigs. A double 10? No way.

Bobby D. Jones · Post by **Bobby D. Jones** » 27 Jul 2023 10:54 am

Seems Jeff Newman could stay right with all the guys at the old St. Louis shows with his S12 Une. May not of been exact but sounded great.

I sold my 85Lb. in case MSA Classic D10 a couple months ago to a young player.

Johnny Cox · Post by **Johnny Cox** » 27 Jul 2023 1:21 pm

12 string D13th.

Roger Rettig · Post by **Roger Rettig** » 28 Jul 2023 5:29 am

I've been waiting since 6/15/22 for my 12-string Williams D13. I have just heard this week that delivery is imminent!

My setup is closely related to Johnny's current guitar but I've made a couple of changes.

Some days, I dread the thought of adapting from D10 to a single-12; other days (when I'm feeling good), I'm still impatient to try it!

My 'endorsement' isn't worth much, I know, but, after studying its potential for fourteen months, I'm more convinced than ever that it's the optimum tuning. Whether or not I come to grips with it in my declining years remains to be seen, but only this morning I was retuning my D10 and seeking some chordal options that the new guitar will offer.

I think Buddy would have heartily approved of JC's idea. Just like he expressed in that post about E13, I've arranged things so that the 'left-half' of my new steel will replicate my current E9 (D9, though); pedals 5 to 8 and my right KLs will be reminiscent of my current C6.

But: it's going to be all one tuning!!! I've always wanted to get that old 'P7' sound on the 9th neck: D13th provides it. My favourite KL (Bs to Bb) is mirrored by 'new P5'.

Maybe by next week I'll be immersed in in it all.

Greg Cutshaw · Post by **Greg Cutshaw** » 28 Jul 2023 5:47 am

12 string D-13 is not only good for pedal steel. It's also great for non pedal, chord and single string work despite the close string spacing which makes some bar slants challenging. I am working with 8P + 7K with no difficulty at all after an initial few weeks of retraining old muscle memories. Nothing wrong with an S-10 or D-10 either but I find D-13 to be the most fun to play most any style. In any case we are more limited by our abilities than our guitar.

Roger Rettig · Post by **Roger Rettig** » 28 Jul 2023 6:01 am

"In any case we are more limited by our abilities than our guitar."

A story old as rhyme!

(Mine's going to be 8+6.)

Andrew Goulet · Post by **Andrew Goulet** » 28 Jul 2023 9:19 am

I started on a hybrid 8 string tuning (that I've now expanded to 12), so it feels normal to me. In the beginning (before I knew anything), I would be confused by people talking about workarounds to get a 6th sound on their guitar. I've always had the 6th tone right in the middle!

It works out incredibly well for me. I have my crying/bouncing/twanging E9 stuff for things like Buck Owens, but if the band switches to Hank Williams, I give my feet a rest and treat the guitar like a non-pedal. I think it helps save the audience from steel guitar boredom.

The 12 string also gives me those low bass strings, which I use to fill in on rhythm when a guitarist takes a lead, or we need more muscle in the sound. Without those strings I wouldn't be able to take over the bum-ditty rhythm on Johnny Cash songs, for example.

J D Sauser · Post by **J D Sauser** » 28 Jul 2023 7:04 pm

BE’s last guitar was a 12 string Sierra C6th cistom built for him built by by fellow Forum member Jim Palenscar. Sadly we lost him shortly after he received that guitar. Who knows what trend he might have started.
BE had experimented with S12 before, I know that he commissioned Carter in the late 90’s to build him an S12 with some “universal” aspects. I believa that some of his remarks om the 12 string aspect posted above came around that time. I don’t know that he ever was seen in public with that Carter S12.

Frankly, history has shown that 10 string is “good enough” for either one tuning.
IF I was to play E9th I would enjoy the added bass strings an “extended” 12-string E9th offers without complicating the tuning.

I play S12 C6th pedal and non-pedal steels now and as far as PSG, there is little I would have to re-think if I was to play C6th on someone’s 10 string except that I would crank the bottom C to D for as ling I’d have to play it.

I seriously doubt that any professional would struggle switchng from 10 to 12 string, but many D10 players felt unsure about compounding “the two tunings” into one neck. Yet most Universal players, including the two most famous ones Maurice Anderson and Jeff Newman could play and teach on both, the Universal and extended S12 as well as S & D 10. Maurice even professionally played two PSGs setup wuite differently, one E9th/B6th and another Bb6th/Eb9th with also different more Jazz leaning chages! I remember him even flooring some name players with C6th credentials in 2000 playing Hard and BeBop as well as NeoSoul elements… and most didn’t realize that he was at his more E9th-heavy green/black E9th/B6th… still reeling off the heavy chord-chains he was famous for.

Maurice went further and opened us a brand new can of worms in the later years of his career when he surprised everybody showing up with a little S12 NON-pedal able to play almost like when he had 8P&5K, specially single note improv.

Tommy Morell went non-pedal D10 and eventually even S10 after he lost his Bigsby PSG in a fire in the 90’s… and we couldn’t hear anything missing. Ha!

To me all these “problems” about switching from 10 to 12 or back to 10 are totally overblown. It’s in my opinion a 2 week practice-and-stick-with-it visual right hand adaption discipline IF one understood the previous tuning. I found adapting to adding a 3rd ring-finger pick after decades of the regular Thumb + 2 much more challenging, but bit thu it and it became natural after 3 months. The first 2 weeks were discouraging.

… JD