Ye Olde Vertical Lever

Andrew Frost · Post by **Andrew Frost** » 11 Jul 2022 9:53 pm

My preference is to have a change on LKV that I only ever use in combination with a pedal or two.

But what is going on with the Bb vertical thing?
I just don't resonate with that approach, but I'd like to hear how and why it works for you, if that's what you use. It certainly is pretty close to 'standard'.

I can appreciate the musical value of lowering the Bs.

It just seems that using that change alone, by itself, would not be ergonomic....
I get the Bb/A# by raising string 6 ( zero pedal ) and this works for me because I can use it independently against the open tuning, or with Apedal, or with Es lowered in a B6 sort of way. If I lowered my Bs, I'd much rather do that on an outside pedal or a lever other than the vertical.

So my question is, do you use your vertical change independently a lot and do you find that to be comfortable?
Or is it generally in combo with a pedal or two?

FWIW, for me it makes most sense to put F# to G, semitone raise, on string 1 & 7.
Reason being, there is hardly ever a moment I will want that G note and not have at least one pedal down, so as such, the vertical knee motion is somewhat 'anchored'.
For example, as a minor 3rd over E, I will engage the B pedal to make a Emin11 sort of voicing, eliminating the potentially clammy G#.
Over an A chord , pedals down its a b7 etc.
ts has a ton of pedals-down uses with my set up. I suppose there are some chromatic runs where I'd have to use it independently against the G# but I'd prob find another way around it if I had to.

Steve Leal · Post by **Steve Leal** » 11 Jul 2022 11:52 pm

Hi Andrew,

I agree that vertical works/feels best when being engaged while stepping on another pedal. I have experimented with just about every change possible with my vertical. I ended up with lowering Bs to Bb. I rarely use it by itself. Only when I want to grab a flatted 5th on occasion, or when two frets down from open position to get a 9th chord.

My main uses for it are….

1. To augment open position chord along with A pedal

2. To make 4 chord (A B pedals down) turn to minor, then to diminished by adding Es lowered.

3. From A B pedals down position, sliding one fret up, releasing B pedal and raising Es. This gives you a 6m chord without having to shift feet from AB to BC.

4. From open position, go up one fret, raise Es with A pedal and lower Bs to get 2m chord.

5. From pedals down position, sliding one fret down, release A pedal, raise Es and lower Bs to get a great dissonant major 7th chord. (Works even better if you can also raise 1 and 7 a half step in combination.

Note: on my zero pedal, I raise string 6 a whole step but use it for other purposes.

I agree that lowering Bs on a regular lever is more comfortable, but other important changes do not function at all on vertical well, so it is a compromise.

Alternative Options I have tried and like on vertical lever are:
1. lowering G#s to Gs on 3 and 6
2. lowering G# to F# on 6. Great combination if your zero pedal lowers Bs to As
3. Raising F#s to Gs on 1 and 7
4. Raising F# to G# on 1 and D# to E on 2
5. Raising E to D on 4

Thanks,
Steve

Ian Rae · Post by **Ian Rae** » 12 Jul 2022 2:06 am

I play a uni where it's an important change on the B6 side which you do have to use on its own sometimes, although I more often use it with one or more pedals, rather like on the E9.

There are various options but LKV seems to be the least worst.

Andrew Frost · Post by **Andrew Frost** » 12 Jul 2022 6:17 am

Thanks for the perspectives here.
Steve, that's a helpful outline of applications.
The diminished thing is interesting. On my set up, with A# raise on s6, there's a whole a little world in the zero/A pedal position, largely centred around F#.
With 0+A+vertical I get a great dim chord across 6 consecutive strings. So I can use passing dim chords between ma6s and min7s when comping. But if I'm not in that 0+A position, its a little cumbersome getting there.

Ian, ya I'd think on a Universal set up w/ B-Bb on Vertical it'd be constantly in use, akin to the C-B lower on C6 and the placement of that lever would factor in also? If it ran the length of the B6 pedals it'd be less of an awkward thing to engage frequently maybe. I don't know.

Roger Rettig · Post by **Roger Rettig** » 12 Jul 2022 6:35 am

Andrew:

The B to Bb lower - either on its own or in conjunction with my A pedal - is so important to me that I have to have it somewhere 'usable'. LKV isn't it. My Bs lower on my RKL.

For me, it's vital to split-tune it with my A pedal.

It's applications are legion:

A full diminished with A, B and the E lower.

An Augmented 5th chord - 3,4,5,6 with the A pedal/B lower

A b13th - 9,8,6,5,4 with A pedal and B lower.

A simple 9th chord - just lower the Bs and lots of strings are relevant with no other pulls.

A 7b5 - 9,8,6,5

And so on.

In the old days, of course, much of this was achieved by half-pedaling the A - plenty of that from the Big E on his Black Album - but the facility to lower it below the B is very useful.

Ian Rae · Post by **Ian Rae** » 12 Jul 2022 6:41 am

Andrew, instead of a long lever I actually have two short ones. I guess we all have secrets...

Donny Hinson · Post by **Donny Hinson** » 12 Jul 2022 7:08 am

I'm just the opposite. With my setup, I often use a vertical by itself, but prefer the Bb change on a pedal next to the A pedal. As to ergonomics, I see that as differing, based on each player's physiology. Back in the early '70s, I bought a D10 8+2, and quickly added 6 more levers because I thought something was always "missing" and that I needed more changes to play more complex music. But when I heard players with far less play a lot more music, I got off that "constantly changing and adding" merry-go-round.

YMMV $:\$

Roger Rettig · Post by **Roger Rettig** » 12 Jul 2022 7:13 am

When I get my D13 guitar, the A pedal will be at #3. Pedal 4 is virtually a substitute for the old pedal 5 on C6 and I'm having pedals 3 & 4 split-tuned to give me that 5th note-lower.

Instead of pedal A with RKL, that change will then be pedals 3 and 4.

So, Donny, after countless years of having it on RKL, mine will be on the floor as well.

Roger Rettig · Post by **Roger Rettig** » 12 Jul 2022 1:36 pm

Andrew:

Here's a nice move:

Fret 6: 9,6,5 with Bs lowered
Fret 5: 9,6,5
Fret 4: 9,6,5 with Bs lowered
Fret 3: 9,6,5 with A pedal and Bs lowered. (That's a mistake - sorry; just the A pedal on the last chord.)

E7, A7, D9, G13 (including tritone substitutions).

...and back to C.
(You can actually include the 7th string in all four chords: it sounds fuller. Although it alters the chords it doesn't change their fundamentals.)

Mitchell Smithey · Post by **Mitchell Smithey** » 12 Jul 2022 7:00 pm

I use that one a lot and it is on my vertical. I would rather have it somewhere else but that’s all I have left!

Andrew Frost · Post by **Andrew Frost** » 12 Jul 2022 8:08 pm

Well, seems like at least one pretty common feeling about things is that the B to Bb lower is a super valuable change to have but having it on the vertical isn't everyone's ideal place for it.....
This was my initial hunch about it, and I'm glad I asked.
The musical value of that change is obviously substantial.
I did for a time lower Bs on RKR and it was pretty nice, but ultimately opted for the Bb on string 6 route, for now at least.
Thanks for all the input here!
Much appreciated.
Andy

Walter Webb · Post by **Walter Webb** » 13 Jul 2022 2:45 pm

Wow, a great way to play the circle of 5ths, and so easy! Instant jazz chording!

Roger Rettig wrote:Andrew:

Here's a nice move:

Fret 6: 9,6,5 with Bs lowered
Fret 5: 9,6,5
Fret 4: 9,6,5 with Bs lowered
Fret 3: 9,6,5 with A pedal and Bs lowered.

E7, A7, D9, G13

...and back to C.
(You can actually include the 7th string in all four chords: it sounds fuller. Although it alters the chords it doesn't change their fundamentals.)

Steve Mueller · Post by **Steve Mueller** » 13 Jul 2022 8:18 pm

My most frequent uses:
1) 2 Dominant 7th
2) Root 7b5
3) Maj 7th of B chord

Fred Treece · Post by **Fred Treece** » 14 Jul 2022 6:35 am

So my question is, do you use your vertical change independently a lot and do you find that to be comfortable?
Or is it generally in combo with a pedal or two?

My vertical raises string 7 and 1 to G, so it’s my 7th tone for AB.
By itself, raises 7 (and 1) to the #9 of E7 chord on strings 12-11-10–9-7 (E9 extended tuning)
In conjunction with LKL (E raise) for E7b9#9

Using it by itself involves lifting the foot off the floor. That in itself is not difficult; nor is using it with LKL so much. The awkward thing is returning the foot back into a strategic position for working pedals. That takes more practice than I give it.

I have the Bb lower on Pedal 1 (of 5, next to A), and use it for some of the same things Roger explained in his post. Very useful even by itself, but having the split with Pedal A is groovalicious.

Roger Rettig · Post by **Roger Rettig** » 14 Jul 2022 7:28 am

I've had "B - Bb lower = RKL" for so long that it's in my DNA! When I get my new guitar (D13th), it's going to be a combination of P3 (my A pedal) and P4 which will have the required split.

Wow, a great way to play the circle of 5ths, and so easy! Instant jazz chording!

Thanks, Walter. I stumbled on that by chance many years ago and it reinforced my conviction that this change plays a vital role in expanding E9's vocabulary.

And, for me, I knew I needed it easily accessible. I think I'm in good company - if I'm not mistaken, Tommy White has his B-lower on RKL.

That's where the similarities end, however!

Pete Bailey · Post by **Pete Bailey** » 14 Jul 2022 4:24 pm

To answer the original question, yes I do use the B->Bb lever by itself quite often. Sometimes to get that flatted 5 in open position, but more often just as a passing tone in melody or improvisation when I don't want to slide down then back up a fret real quick.

As far as other uses go I love it and use it all the time in combination too. As usual Steve Leal has covered everything I would have to say about that. I always give Steve's posts extra attention because it seems like whenever I am considering making a copedent change he's already been there & done that!

My next guitar will have B->Bb on RKR and the vertical will handle 7+ and 2-, often used in the closed position as well. Hopefully it will all come together like I am imagining!

Steve Leal · Post by **Steve Leal** » 18 Jul 2022 12:15 am

Hi Pete,

I have certainly tried a lot of combinations out. Must be my OCD always kickin’ in lol!

Since I only play E9th tuning, I find that lowering Bs is something I am not willing to part with.

If I played a double neck, I would probably instead lower Bs a whole step on a pedal and lower 6 a whole step on my vertical.

John Hyland · Post by **John Hyland** » 18 Jul 2022 12:49 am

There are a lot of B>>Bb fans in this thread. So let me pose this: with 3+4lever setup what standard changes would sacrifice to keep aBb option

Roger Rettig · Post by **Roger Rettig** » 18 Jul 2022 2:29 am

I'd keep the E raise and lower on the left and the B lower and 2nd/9th string lower on the right.

Mark McCornack · Post by **Mark McCornack** » 21 Jul 2023 8:49 pm

I strongly agree with Roger. That is pretty much my setup, though my right and left knees are reversed (no, not my actual knees, but the levers

). I started out with a Pro-I with only an Eb and F on the right knee and no left knee levers were on that guitar. Later, when I got a couple more knee levers for the unused left knee, I just left the right knee functions as they were. Why re-learn at that point?
The idea mentioned here of a B to Bb change on a "zero" floor pedal next to the standard Emmons A pedal seemed intriguing, but there are many changes I use where the A and B floor pedals are both depressed while also engaging the Bb change. Since engaging a zero pedal necessitates getting off the B pedal, I don't think the "zero" pedal B to Bb would work for me.

Dave Hepworth · Post by **Dave Hepworth** » 29 Jul 2023 2:10 am

Hi all,
I have my vertical raise 5string up to D !
Gives a flat 7 in open and sus4 with pedals A and B which is a smoother change when playing 3 and 5 with AB and having to slide up 1 whilst releasing B to get the sus4 .
I like this pull a lot and other uses can be found too.

Roger Rettig · Post by **Roger Rettig** » 29 Jul 2023 3:57 am

Dave:

Exactly what I have! I love getting the sus4 pedals-down, releasing LKV, then releasing the A pedal.

I know that same note is available on the 2nd (with RKR) but moving that one string through a step-and-a-half is very pleasing to the ear.

I should add that, while I don't like verticals, that one is accessible to me when I'm engaging the floor-pedals. Without pedals, it'd be a stretch.

In addition, I can lower that 5th string to Bb, then A, so I can get a two-and-a-half step change just on one string.