working with electric guitarists

Leon Grizzard · Post by **Leon Grizzard** » 14 May 2003 1:44 pm

There is a thread on the forum about the makeup of the ideal country band. Some of the replies, and other posts I have seen on the forum, are to the effect that acoustic guitar players are okay to have around for rhythm playing, but that electric guitars player, if allowed on stage, should probably just stand there until its okay for them to take a solo once and a while.

I know a great deal of this is for valid musical reasons - fiddle and pedal steel are the quintessence of real country music, not wanking guitars, although lead guitar has its place, especially in swing. Also, the pedal steel covers a lot of sonic ground, and there a potential for guitar and steel tripping over each other. I know it is not snobbery, nor the inability or disinclination of steel players to leave someone else a little room, for cryin’ out tears.

All that said, what observations, advice, or admonishments to you have for electric guitar players playing with steel? (I must loudly say, of course, that my pedal steel bandmate John Russell is not a sonic space hog, and strums chords on some choruses while I play fills or solo. It’s more the other way- I hog rhythm duties, and glower at him if he tries to play rhythm at the same time I do.)

Chris Walke · Post by **Chris Walke** » 14 May 2003 2:35 pm

"...that electric guitars player, if allowed on stage, should probably just stand there until its ok for them to take a solo once and a while."

I know you're not saying you support this statement, but...

I sure am glad Merle Haggard, Johnny Cash, Buck Owens, Lefty Frizzell did not/do not subscribe to this philosophy. Could you imagine those guys making that statement to Redd Voelkert(sorry about spelling) or Norm Stephens?

That being said, the lead guitarists should go easy on the inappropriate acrobatics they sometimes do. At least avoid doing them throughout the whole song, stomping all over anyone else's opportunity to play a fill.

David Mullis · Post by **David Mullis** » 14 May 2003 4:53 pm

I've never had too much of a problem with lead guitarists. I guess I've been lucky. The 2 of the 4 fiddle players I've worked with could not play in tune and walked all over me every chance they got. As for the other 2, they were first class all the way.

Jim West · Post by **Jim West** » 14 May 2003 5:57 pm

It all depends on the quality of the player. No matter what the instrument, if they can't "hear" where they are supposed to be within the context of the music then they will always be playing over the next person to satisfy their own ego or fumbling around trying to find their place within the song.

Quality players = Quality music.

Ricky Davis · Post by **Ricky Davis** » 14 May 2003 10:27 pm

Comment Removed, as it was not well received.[This message was edited by Ricky Davis on 15 May 2003 at 08:55 PM.]

Mike Perlowin · Post by **Mike Perlowin** » 14 May 2003 10:31 pm

Jim said it all.

Here in L.A. most guitar players take the attitude that "I don't know what that thing is or what it does, but I play LEAD guitar. That means I play ALL the leads and fills. You stay out of my way,"

More often than not, if you ask them to leave you some room to play some of the fills or split the instrumental portion in half and allow you to play a little, they react as if you were asking them to cut off a body part. Every steel player in town can tell you dozens of stories about guitar players who hogged all the leads and fills all night long.

David Mason · Post by **David Mason** » 15 May 2003 3:52 am

Many second-rate guitarists have never actually learned to play rhythm well in a band context. They've seen the scantily-clad chicks ogling the heavy metal lead guitarists on MTV videos and decided "That's for me!" Since they never have actually learned how to play music, all they CAN do is wank around and make noises. Not too surprisingly, most truly good rock lead guitarists (Allman, Santana, Hendrix come to mind) were also excellent rhythm players.

Tony Harris · Post by **Tony Harris** » 15 May 2003 5:24 am

I would say that ANY instrumentalist in a band situation should know what to play, when to play very little, and when not to play at all! One of the greatest compliments I ever received was from a girl singer I once played with who said "You must play with a lot of singers, you keep out of my way - my regular guitar-player is good but plays across me all the time!"

Jim Eaton · Post by **Jim Eaton** » 15 May 2003 8:08 am

Just last week I got to play all night long with Al Bruno. I had more fun that night than I have in a long time! I sure hope I get to play with him some more.
JE:-)>

Jesse Harris · Post by **Jesse Harris** » 15 May 2003 10:15 am

I have to concurr that fiddle players are often the worst, they play all over everything and are often out of tune, and blasting thru their amp.

Jim Phelps · Post by **Jim Phelps** » 15 May 2003 10:40 am

I've worked with some guitar and fiddle players who are as bad as everything you say, but that's not all of them.

I worked with one guy while filling-in on a one-night gig, (I was hired to play LEAD GUITAR) and this guy wouldn't let me get a note in edge-wise so I thought, "Fine, he can have it. I'll just stand here and strum rhythm." The bass-player (leader) asked me why wasn't I playing more and I told him if I did, I'd be fighting the other guy, there just wasn't any space, so it was fine with me to just play rhythm. On the break the bass player told the other guitar guy to cool it and give Phelps some space to play, and he did. I didn't want him to say anything, I was annoyed by the lead-hog but didn't think it was worth fighting about. It turned out OK.

Another band I played steel in, with a few songs on guitar and fiddle, a 5-night-a-week sit-down gig....some guitar player we'd never seen before wants to sit-in, we let him. He played loud, sloppy, too much, the type you're talking about. I let him do his thing, I figured I had nothing to prove to anyone, let him wear himself out. Finally he wanted to do a song I play guitar on, so I put my guitar on. He got a smirk on his face that was something else. You could see he was thinking "oboy, now I have another guitarist I can really make look stupid". He nodded for me to take a solo and I'll never forget his expression, "go ahead, if you dare, make my day". That was too much for me. I'm sure he thought since I was a steel player I'd be a real lame-o guitar player. I put everything I had into the solo and then nodded back to him. His smirk was gone, now he looked like he was gonna start crying. After the song he said "you're a good guitar player", I said "thanks", and he slunk away like a puppy with his tail between his legs. Later the band told me they wondered how long I'd put up with that guy. So what does this do to your "lead players suck" theory, support it or contradict it? Who's the bad guy, him, me, both?

I play guitar, steel and fiddle and have been a full-time player on each one throughout the years. I've played with occassional guitar, fiddle, keyboard and steel players who wouldn't stop playing long enough for anyone else to get in one note. I've never been accused of that syndrome no matter what instrument I played. As much as I love the steel, with or without pedals, some of you need to find out the world (and your band) doesn't revolve around it or any one instrument. Yikes, heresy! Maybe some of us need to practice up a little more and get in with a better class of musician.

And Ricky Davis, with your "I'd rather work with a kazoo player than a guitar player" attitude, guess what pal, guitar, fiddle, mandolin, piano...they've all been around quite a bit longer than steel and began the folk/country music that today's country music came from. Guitarists like Grady Martin, Brent Mason, Albert Lee (to name only a few) aren't good enough for you? No I'm not them but with your attitude even I'd rather work in a kazoo band or play one than play anything in a band with you. [This message was edited by Jim Phelps on 15 May 2003 at 01:41 PM.]

Gene Jones · Post by **Gene Jones** » 15 May 2003 11:16 am

The "rule" is set in stone. One player's LAST NOTE ENDS at the end of a bar....and the next player's FIRST NOTE BEGINS at the beginning of the next bar!

No crossing-over to step on the other players note is ever exceptable!

Gene
www.genejones.com

Buck Dilly · Post by **Buck Dilly** » 15 May 2003 12:16 pm

I have played both "lead" guitar and steel. I have been stepped on by every kind of player regardless of the instrument they play. Actually most steel players with whom I have played professionally, were not very experienced and had no clue how to play "rhythm", they just embellished incessantly. You have opened a real can of worms here. Finally- The last lead guitartist I played steel with gave me tons of spaces to fill; he was a real pro.

Bill Fulbright · Post by **Bill Fulbright** » 15 May 2003 1:24 pm

A Band is called a "band" because it is a team. I play bass, rhythm, keys, lead, sing Front vocals, and now steel. If I can't blend and add something to the mix, I lay out. For me, it is not a competition, but a tune that should be presented to the best of everone's ability.

My experience is that if you don't know the fundamentals, you cannot and don't deserve to play lead. Lead is the result of knowing what NOT to play and when NOT to play it, AND about adding a melodic line or expressive fill to enhance the song, not inflate one's ego. Contribution of musicality and musicianship is what I believe playing in a band is about, while finding a tasteful way to blend.

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Bill Fulbright
Mullen D-10 8x7; Gibson ES-165; Peavey Vegas 400;
ICQ# 2251620 My Music Site

John Steele · Post by **John Steele** » 15 May 2003 1:51 pm

I'm with Gene.

In my humble opinion, every instrumentalist should be able to accomodate each of the following 4 scenarios, regardless of instrument:
1) Taking solos - Let it all hang out, obviously. Most players have no problem with that.
2) Playing unobtrusive backup behind
sung passages. Filling the holes...
3) Finding something supportive but unobtrusive to play behind other soloists. (without getting in the way!)
4) Not playing at all. Strangely, this never occurs to alot of people.

Without darkness we would not know light, as the old saying goes.
I work with one guitarist who must think the entire band will fall apart if he quits relentlessly wanking rhythm on his electric guitar. Playing nothing never occurs to him, although it has been suggested numerous times by the bitchy guy on steel.

Yet another guitarist sees every song as a guitar solo, from start to finish. Incapable of playing rhythm, or being unobtrusive, I finally had to quit playing with him before it ruined our friendship.
The principle that wraps up all these thoughts in one nice neat package:
 Attention to form!
 (A lost art)
-John

Jim Phelps · Post by **Jim Phelps** » 15 May 2003 2:04 pm

John Steele -- well said.

Fred Shannon · Post by **Fred Shannon** » 15 May 2003 2:12 pm

The ability to recognize when to "let it all hang out" and/or when to "put it under your arm" is totally lacking with both some steel and some leadplayers...
Sometimes "Less is More"!!

Fred

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The spirit be with you!
If it aint got a steel, it aint real

Jackie Anderson · Post by **Jackie Anderson** » 15 May 2003 2:29 pm

We used to call it having "ears" -- the offenders don't seem to. Don't be misled by Ricky's comments, though: check out the clip of Dale Watson & co. on the Opry, and you will see that Ricky knows perfectly well how to solo, fill and lay out, as appropriate. They had trombones in that band, for gosh sakes, and everybody just fit together like pieces in a jigsaw puzzle -- as it ought to be.

Jim Phelps · Post by **Jim Phelps** » 15 May 2003 2:45 pm

The way I see it, knowing when to play and when not to play with a vocalist and other musicians is the number 1 basic requirement for being a musician. If a person doesn't have it, they're not a musician, they're just a person who's learned some licks on an instrument. Unfortunately there're lots of these who have managed to gets gigs without yet learning this basic requirement. Playing on a gig doesn't make a professional or a real musician, in my opinion. Jack, I've seen Ricky's Opry performance and I know he knows how to play with a band. He can still kiss my axe.

David L. Donald · Post by **David L. Donald** » 15 May 2003 3:05 pm

I'm with Gene on his soloist in and out comment with one exception... when It is arranged to overlap in harmonys.

This I do a lot and it is cool. The last measure of a solo is joined by the next player BUT and a BIG BUT it's a complimentary arranged line for both players.
Sends one out with a bang and brings the other in with power... and no broken toes.

The last fiddle player I was with was just a cronic overplayer... but if he stepped on me I stomped on him right back... and I had the bigger amp... then I turned right down again.

We now have an adult playing in the same place who apologises if he forgets to drop out from divine transport. And always offers the next solo.
If a guitarist is playing with a steel, he would be well served to play
staccato single note lines when the steel is in long chord mode,
and light, long ringing strums when the the steel is flyin'.

If he isn't providing a nice subtile back drop for the other soloist, that is inverse complimentary to that solist, he is not doing his job. IMHO that I will argue to the death LOL

Jim Bob Sedgwick · Post by **Jim Bob Sedgwick** » 15 May 2003 3:38 pm

Nobody has mentioned train wrecks (read unrehearsed band). Occasionally, the band leader in our group (plays lead guitar) will over ride me, and me him. When that happens, We both lay out, understanding that we are walking on each other's leads. It really cleans up the sound, because there's no one playing but the drummer and the bassman..

Gene Jones · Post by **Gene Jones** » 15 May 2003 4:58 pm

Donald, your comment above about the fiddle player reminded me of one who habitually "walked on" everyone, anytime he had an inspiration to play a few notes.

Our guitar player ended it one night when he stood up and said "from thius moment on, anytime you put that fiddle under your chin except when it your turn to play, it's gona be just you and the rhythm section until the rest of us decide to return from the bar!"

Gene
www.genejones.com

Ricky Davis · Post by **Ricky Davis** » 15 May 2003 6:16 pm

Jim; sorry I ruffled your feathers somewhat....and those that know me, know I dig all guitar players that know when and how to play country music.
I've worked with Albert L. and Grady M. and John J. and Bill K. and Redd V. and many others....and I like every single thing they play(but Redd is my Fav.).....but in the same breath; I'm not a fan of Electric guitar in country music....and that's my opinion.
Now as far as the "Kiss my Axe" comment...

Ricky[This message was edited by Ricky Davis on 15 May 2003 at 07:18 PM.]

David L. Donald · Post by **David L. Donald** » 16 May 2003 1:47 am

Gene

it's gona be just you and the rhythm section until the rest of us decide to return from the bar!

Only one problem with that and this cat...he'd just come and play AT the bar and order a drink... and then over play TWICE as much after.
He would go on ALL night just him and the rhythm section. LOL
A GREAT player, but that's not everything.

Ricky you didn't ruffle me.
Some guitarists are musicians into the music 1st and guitar 2nd, others are into their own thing and the music takes a backseat. Some learn and work more, others are doomed to just do what they do. A long string of bands that don't last.
I suspect that most of the guitarists here are the former. Steelers know about getting stepped on and avoid doing it..[This message was edited by David L. Donald on 16 May 2003 at 02:51 AM.]

George McLellan · Post by **George McLellan** » 16 May 2003 6:52 am

One thing that hasn't been touched on that I really notice, is almost everytime I've worked with a lead guitarist or fiddler, that is usually playing with a three piece band, is so used to doing all the work, that he plays all the time without thinking there is a fourth or fifth extra instrument there. It makes it touch and go trying to get through sets like that.

When it isn't my turn to play, I usually have my arms folded or hands in my lap and am intently - I hope - listening to what's happening on stage.

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SUAS U' PHIOB
Geo