Tritone subs...John Steele/Jeff Lampert

bob grossman · Post by **bob grossman** » 24 Jul 2002 3:35 pm

I had to revisit this. If I understand correctly, when playing a I7 to connect with a IV chord, the tritone sub. could be used. Ex. In the key of C, play an F#7 instead of a C7. Sounds like it works to me and it is one fret above the IV chord..more convenient. Tell us more.

Jon Light · Post by **Jon Light** » 24 Jul 2002 3:50 pm

I wish I knew one tenth of what John & Jeff know but......yes. If you want to get complicated, the exact nature of the chord scales and flatted fifth kind of stuff gets deep down inside of it all but in a cruder and more player friendly way--(if it sounds good, well that's good enuff for me) it is indeed that simple. And with the same idea, slide into your V chord, G7 from Ab7, a sub for D7 (or Dmin7). Or instead of your V chord G, slide home to C from C#7. As you refine the concept you will find what does and doesn't work but the basics, especially if you use simpler voicings, are not that complicated. I think of it as an alternate bizarro world that co-exists with our more conventional universe.

BTW--a jazz hero of mine, Eric Dolphy, had a blues tune (it should have been a 12 bar blues but Eric made it a 14 bar blues instead) where the band basically plays the changes in Bb and the head is essentially in E. It always sounded salty as hell to me but once I realized the concept it was a smack-on-the-head revelation. [This message was edited by Jon Light on 24 July 2002 at 04:55 PM.]

ebb · Post by **ebb** » 24 Jul 2002 3:52 pm

how dare you post relevant information here with correct spelling. please tell us why your guitar brand is the ultimit

Jon Light · Post by **Jon Light** » 24 Jul 2002 3:56 pm

uh---boogers pikkups are the gratest.

Paul Graupp · Post by **Paul Graupp** » 24 Jul 2002 4:23 pm

Jon; I hope Anne Marie or Tony Davis don't read this !! They knows about them cheeky boogers........

Regards, Paul

chas smith · Post by **chas smith** » 24 Jul 2002 7:12 pm

In the key of C, play an F#7 instead of a C7

The two notes that define what a chord is are the 3rd and 7th, anything after that can be considered "color", the bass has the root and 5th. So the 3rd of C7 is E, the 7th is Bb, the 3rd of F#7 is A# (Bb), the 7th is E, so because they share the same 3rd and 7th, they are interchangeable.

Mike Delaney · Post by **Mike Delaney** » 24 Jul 2002 7:43 pm

Chas-You are right on. The two chords share the same third and seventh. The difference is that the bass moves chromaticly, and the scale that is used is more "outside" than a mixolydian scale which would be normally used. An example would be-

G7 Mixolydian (a C scale from G to G)
G,A,B,C,D,E,F,G

Db7 Mixolydian (a Gb scale from Db to Db)
Db,Eb,F,Gb,Ab,Bb,C,Db

Notice that the Db7 scale has a "clam" in it, the Gb, which is a major7 rather than a dominant7. If you change the Gb to a G, the scale is Db Lydian Dominant, or a G7 Altered scale, either of which is an Ab jazz minor scale. (A jazz minor scale is a major scale with a flatted third. In C, the notes are-C,D,Eb,F,G,A,B,C.) This is the essence of the Parker sound. Play the above scale against an F7 and you will hear Lydian Dominant. Play it against a B7, and you will hear Altered Dominant.

Dennis Boyd · Post by **Dennis Boyd** » 25 Jul 2002 10:02 pm

Mike,

The Db Mixolydian scale spelling is actually Db Eb F-Gb Ab Bb-Cb Db
That scale thus provides the F and B (Cb) tritone that creates the dominant to tonic effect when moving from Db7 to C.

Interesting subject.

Jeff Lampert · Post by **Jeff Lampert** » 26 Jul 2002 5:41 am

Bob G., Here is a thread about the subject with extensive postings from John and myself and some tab examples. It covers a lot of ground. Regards. .. Jeff
http://steelguitarforum.com/Forum8/HTML/001240.html

bob grossman · Post by **bob grossman** » 26 Jul 2002 7:02 am

Jeff: Yes, I printed that out and it is in my "theory" folder. I should have referred to it again.

Dennis: More good info...you guys know this stuff, but do you play it? There are 796 possible 7-note scales in an octave!
I'm catching on...a little. Paul F. is very knowledgeable on theory also.

Jeff Lampert · Post by **Jeff Lampert** » 27 Jul 2002 3:55 am

you guys know this stuff, but do you play it?

Absolutely. There wouldn't be much sense in knowing it otherwise. The tri-tone concepts is just a theoretical tool. The idea is to develop a set of tools. The bigger the set, the more you can draw on when improvising. Of couse, equally important is knowing how to apply them. What strings, frets, and pedals, that sort of thing. And lastly, and probably most difficult, is how to make it sound musical. .. Jeff

bob grossman · Post by **bob grossman** » 27 Jul 2002 6:15 am

Jeff:

OK. When I started reading and collecting this info on modes, scales, tritones, etc., it overloeaded my head, so I'm taking it slowly. John's dissertation of several years ago about how to figure what chord goes with a mode was a real help.

Thanks to you, too. I'm learning a little about using tritone subs for 7ths. How about other chords?

Jeff Lampert · Post by **Jeff Lampert** » 27 Jul 2002 7:33 am

I guess you mean, how about other substitution concepts? You can often substitute a 7b9 chord for a 7th. For a G7 leading to a C, you can substitute a G7b9, which is an Ab,F,D,or B diminished 7, with a G root, so just play a dimished 7 chord, which is all over the place on C6. In the key of C, you can often play a Dm7 over a G7. In fact whenever you have a 7th chord, you can often precede it with a m7 if there isn't one there already. If there is an A7, precede it with an Em7 or Em7b5. If there's a D7 precede it with an Am7, etc. etc. In the key of C, many standards have a change to an Bb9. Interestingly, you can often substitute an Fm7 or AbMaj7 since they share many of the same notes and the dissonances are not annoying and may actually be desireable. In the Key of C, you can almost at will substitute CMaj7, C6, and Em7 interchangeably. As you get more "out of the box", you can start doing things like interchanging certain 7th chords with a m7 of the same root. For example, in the key of C, you can replace a A7 with an Am7 sometimes, or vice versa. You can also use 7#11 chords as a substitute for a IV7 or IVMaj7. Therefore, in the key of C, when the song goes to an FMaj7, try an F7#11. Once you extablish the appropriate chord substitution, then you pick the right scale (set of notes) to improvise over it.

bob grossman · Post by **bob grossman** » 27 Jul 2002 9:06 am

Jeff...

Thanks, good stuff!

C6th IS Am7, ECAG, but you know that.

bob grossman · Post by **bob grossman** » 27 Jul 2002 9:16 am

Dennis:

Wouldn't the Db mixolydian start on Ab, the fifth tone? Is the C natural, or is this a minor scale?

I'm thinking in C to understand this.

Dennis Boyd · Post by **Dennis Boyd** » 27 Jul 2002 9:38 am

Bob,

The Db Mixolydian Mode starts and ends on Db. The root tone of the scale is named along with the scale type or mode. If you wanted to relate this mode with it's dominant position then you would say that Db Mixolydian is in the key of Gb.

This can get confusing at times. It's fun to learn though, so keep up the good work.

Dennis

Jeff Lampert · Post by **Jeff Lampert** » 27 Jul 2002 10:24 am

so just play a dimished 7 chord, which is all over the place on C6.

C6th IS Am7, ECAG, but you know that.

What I meant was that the diminished 7 chords are all over the C6 TUNING![This message was edited by Jeff Lampert on 27 July 2002 at 11:27 AM.]

Joe Miraglia · Post by **Joe Miraglia** » 27 Jul 2002 1:49 pm

Now this is a post that we should have more of. I'm learning things that I should already know after 40 years of trying to play steel. There have been others,thank you. More like this and none that cause hard feeling. Joe

bob grossman · Post by **bob grossman** » 27 Jul 2002 4:20 pm

Dennis:

I guess I think of the mixolydian as referred to the root key but starting at the fifth tone. In C, it would be starting in G. So, it is referred to a G mixolydian instead of a C mode? So be it. Thanks for the response.

Mike Delaney · Post by **Mike Delaney** » 31 Jul 2002 4:22 pm

I know modes get confusing. Here is a little saying to remember modes by. "I Don't Paint Like Michael Angelo." The modes are-

Ionian (The major scale)
Dorian (The ii scale in a ii V7 progression)
Phrygian (Less common, a Moorish sound)
Lydian (Bluegrass fiddle sound)
Mixolydian (The V7 scale in the ii V7)
Aeolian (The natural minor scale)

So; I,D,P,L,M,A.

There is a 7th mode, Locrian, but it is used so seldom nobody jacks with it. (Locra=Devil. The devil's mode)

The mode always takes its name from its own root. D Dorian starts on D. Dorian is the second mode. D is the second step of the C scale.

Maybe I should explain the bluegrass fiddle sound. If the band is playing in C, he is using a G scale, which is C Lydian. A sweet and lovely sound.

Bobby Lee · Post by **Bobby Lee** » 31 Jul 2002 6:54 pm

Seems to me that an F#7 would sound better against a C7 if you flatted the fifth and added a flatted ninth.

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<img align=right src="http://b0b.com/b0b.gif" width="64" height="64">Bobby Lee - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs
Sierra Session 12 (E9), Williams 400X (Emaj9, D6), Sierra Olympic 12 (F Diatonic) Sierra Laptop 8 (D13), Fender Stringmaster (E13, A6)

Jim Palenscar · Post by **Jim Palenscar** » 31 Jul 2002 8:11 pm

Thanks everyone for this thread- not as exciting as member bashing but way more useful

Mike Delaney · Post by **Mike Delaney** » 31 Jul 2002 11:34 pm

By the way...thank you Dennis Boyd for catching my typo earlier.

Larry Bell · Post by **Larry Bell** » 1 Aug 2002 5:21 am

re: Resolution from 1/2 tone up (e.g., C7--F#7--F), listen to Eldon Shamblin play rhythm guitar. Unfortunately, it'll have to be on records, but he was one of the true masters of the art of rhythm guitar -- an often overlooked art.

Example -- a 12-bar blues <pre>
C6/F#7/ F/F#dim/ C6/C#7/ C7/F#7/
F7/// F#dim/// C/Dm/ Em/Ebm/
Dm/G#7/ G7/C#/ C/G#7/ G7/C#6/ --->C6</pre>

-- full of tritone subs -- or just resolving from a half-tone up -- it's the stuff western swing is made of

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Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
2000 Fessenden S-12 8x8, 1969 Emmons S-12 6x6, 1971 Dobro[This message was edited by Larry Bell on 01 August 2002 at 06:28 AM.]

bob grossman · Post by **bob grossman** » 1 Aug 2002 6:42 am

Mike:

Thanks, I understand. I thought of a "D dorian" as the second mode of a C scale, so, in my mind, it was a C dorian. I'll correct my thinking.

b0b:

I'll try it. Thanks.