Sierra Changer lockup problem

mickd · Post by **mickd** » 13 Jul 2002 8:41 am

In a previous thread, I discussed a problem I am having on string 4 of my Sierra Session 12. The result of that was that I took out all the pull rods on string 4, and the spring too, so as to check for free movement in the changer.
As a check, I did the same on string 3 (where there is no problem).
Sure enough, the difference at the changer is obvious. The String 3 fingers move easily at the touch of my finger. String 4 has some movement, but the bridge end moves only if forced - something is blocking it. I have taken some photos to
illustrate the problem.
I can't see any obstructions - no loose string ends. Its just as if the bridge section on string 4 was too big for the bridge slot - but it can't be that as the problem only started since I changed strings (when I did lose a ball end on str 3).
Has anyone got any ideas what I should do next ?

Leon Roberts · Post by **Leon Roberts** » 13 Jul 2002 11:26 am

mickd, This suggestion is predicated on your mechanical ability. When I have a changer problem as you have now, I take the rods off the changer, plus the springs. From your post, you have accomplished this step. Next, loosen all the other strings to the point of no tension at all. Next, find a rod or axial the same diameter as the axial rod on your changer. slide the extra axial rod just past the 4th string changer. Next, pull the spare axial out until the 4th string changer drops out. You should now be able to examine the changer completely. If the ball end of the string drops out, just reverse the steps taken to assemble your guitar. You might find some other problem with the changer. In that case, I would contact the manufacturer. Now would be a good time to tell you that I know nothing at all about your brand of guitar. This is what I do when changer problems arise on my old 70's Sho-Buds. However, the mechanical principles are the same so you might be able to adapt them.
Just trying to help, Leon

mickd · Post by **mickd** » 13 Jul 2002 11:42 am

Leon
thanks for the suggestion.
Let me make sure I understand what you are saying.
Do you mean to feed in the temporary axle rod at the string 1 end at the same time as I remove the permanent one from the other end (so as to stop the changers on strings 1,2,3 from dropping down) ?
Has anyone ever done this on a Sierra - I could do with some reassurance that theres no hidden snag here.
Mick

Jerry Roller · Post by **Jerry Roller** » 13 Jul 2002 11:56 am

Mick, it seems pretty obvious that you have
a broken piece of string end in the changer.
Do you have access to an air compressor that will put out 150 psi or more? If so it would be worth attaching a "blow gun" air hose attachment to the compressor with your string and springs unhooked from the forth string fingers and WEAR SOME EYE PROTECTION and see if you can manipulate the changer finger while trying to dislodge and blow out the broken string end with the air pressure.
Jerry[This message was edited by Jerry Roller on 13 July 2002 at 12:57 PM.]

Jim Smith · Post by **Jim Smith** » 13 Jul 2002 12:08 pm

Mick, is your top picture reversed? If not, the finger you are moving in the picture is the 9th string, not the 4th!

Earnest Bovine · Post by **Earnest Bovine** » 13 Jul 2002 1:35 pm

Something must be stuck in there. It would be nice to avoid having to slide the changer axle out. But I doubt that compressed air would push it out.

Leon Roberts · Post by **Leon Roberts** » 13 Jul 2002 7:12 pm

Mickd, You understood correctly. Feed the temporary axial in while it pushes the other axial out. This will prevent changers 1,2,and 3 from dropping out. Then slowly pull the temp axial out until the 4th changer drops out. Make sure all the strings have no tension. Like I said in my other post, I'm not familar with your guitar. This works very well on a Sho-Bud. If you feel uncomfortable doing this, try some of the other suggestions.

Jon Light · Post by **Jon Light** » 14 Jul 2002 4:51 am

Hey Mick. Not to beat a dead horse---if you know there's no string piece in there, well, there's no string piece in there. But....a couple of years ago I had a changer binding problem and spent an extraordinary amount of time ruling out the possibility of a ball end being stuck in there. To my amazement I finally found it. It was profoundly buried and was hell to get out. I worried about mangling the changer in the process because even with a good needle-nose grip on it it was so stuck that it wouldn't budge. It took some real work to get out. Definitely a freak thing, like a penny landing on its edge or something. But the point is that it was so well hidden between a raise and lower finger that I concluded that there was no place left that it could be, and that it must be something else.
Therefore anything....anything....me playing out of tune, hitting a bad note, smelling bad in public, is first assumed to be a ball end in the changer.

mickd · Post by **mickd** » 14 Jul 2002 8:56 am

thanks for the replies everyone

Jerry - I don't have access to an air compressor anymore, so I am going to see if I can execute Leon's procedure without the guitar breaking up into pieces like a jigsaw puzzle

Jim - I checked and the picture is correct ! You can see that the strings in the distance are thicker than the ones in the foreground (don't get me started on string 9 and the B-> D raise

)
Jon - I hope you're right & it is a string end. If it is, then it beats me where it is & how come its managed to hide from me so well but maybe I'll find out.
So firts thing I've got to do is unscrew the hex nut one end to see what size 'compensator' rod to hunt for..

Jim Smith · Post by **Jim Smith** » 14 Jul 2002 9:41 am

Oops, my bad.

mickd · Post by **mickd** » 14 Jul 2002 11:54 am

well, I took off the hex nuts at each end and it looks like the whole rod may be threaded. It doesnt give when I push it with my finger. Does this mean I have to somehow unscrew it ? Or, could it be that its just the ends that are threaded (so the hex nuts have something to attach to so as to prevent sideways slippage of the whole assembly ?).
Obviously, if its threaded the whole way through and I try to push it with brute force I'm not going to get very far. But even if its just the ends, I don't see how I can push the rod through the individual changers as the thread will catch on the changer won't it ?

[This message was edited by mickd on 14 July 2002 at 12:58 PM.]

Jim Smith · Post by **Jim Smith** » 14 Jul 2002 12:12 pm

What you were told about the Sho-Bud changer may not be applicable to the Sierra changer at all. I suggest you send an email to Sierra themselves at sierrasteelguitars@imagina.com and ask for their suggestions. Also, there must be someone on the Forum that has worked on a Sierra changer at one point or another that could tell you for sure how to attack this problem.

It may be that the entire changer will have to be removed in order to get the shaft out. If you have to go as far as removing the changer, you should be able to find the problem without removing the shaft.

mickd · Post by **mickd** » 14 Jul 2002 1:09 pm

Jim
yeah - I'll give Tom a call tomorrow night unless someone on the forum pipes up first.
Mick

Joseph Barcus · Post by **Joseph Barcus** » 15 Jul 2002 1:51 am

Jim that would be a good dream ( a steel builder giving advise with email lol ehehhh thats a good one. take care and I do hope he finds the trouble. Joe West virgina

Jim Smith · Post by **Jim Smith** » 15 Jul 2002 4:56 am

Especially in this case, email is the most logical solution.

Mick is in London, England and I'm sure a phone call to Portland, Oregon will be very expensive!

Peter · Post by **Peter** » 15 Jul 2002 7:39 am

10 years ago I walked in a music shop in Denmark Street, London. There was a PSG there, built by the owner of the store, but I forgot his name. Maybe the shop is still there? I am sure he can also help.
Maybe look for a link for PSG builders overseas. Or just look in the Yellow pages and make a few calls.
There is also a builder in Holland, Jan Visser.
Hope this helps.
------------------
Peter den Hartogh-Fender Artist S10-Remington U12-Hilton Volume Pedal-Gibson BR4 lapsteel-Guya "Stringmaster" Copy-MusicMan112RP-Peavy Rage158- - My Animation College in South Africa
[This message was edited by Peter on 15 July 2002 at 09:35 AM.]

mickd · Post by **mickd** » 15 Jul 2002 11:26 am

I called Tom today (he was just off the phone to B0b, who'd told him all about my problem - thanks B0b

).

Tom was very generous with his time, as usual.

The good news is that the changer axle rod is only partly threaded and it is possible to push it through.

The bad news is that this will not cause the changer to drop down - it is secured in several other places also. All it will let me do is examine the bushel which sits between the changer shaft and the top of the changer. Theres defintely no way a string could get in there but Tom thinks theres a very slight chance it may somehow have got 'frozen'.

There isn't any other way of getting inside the changer. I've just spent 1/2 hour with it under the brightest spotlamp I've got and still no sign of a string.

Peter - you won't find any PSG's in Denmark Street these days (plenty of cheap dobros and a few Nationals though). There is a man who advertises in the UK Steelies magazine for PSG repairs and it look like I'm going to have to call him and see if he has a magic wand. I may just try the 'frozen bushel' theory first, though I'm nervous of doing it

[This message was edited by mickd on 15 July 2002 at 12:28 PM.]

Leon Roberts · Post by **Leon Roberts** » 15 Jul 2002 3:13 pm

MICKD. I want to apologize for my post. I didn't realize that your guitar was so "HIGH TECH". However, I want to commend you on having the foresight to discontinue the suggested operation when it appeared that my solution was not the answer. I should have kept my .02 cents to my self. Once again my old U.S.Navy "CAN DO" attitude got me in a sling. It sounded like you needed some help, but evidently your guitar is much more complicated than the old Sho-Buds. The only soul saving thing about my post was I warned you about not knowing anything thing about your guitar and left it up to your level of mechanical ability and the good sense to wait for more accurate information. I hope you can get your horn working properly because I know how frustrating that can be. If you ever get an old Sho-Bud and have problems, don't hesitate to email me.
Leon

Joe Smith · Post by **Joe Smith** » 16 Jul 2002 11:36 am

OK, here is one more idea that might be worth a try. If you can find a small magnetic screw driver, You might be able to pull the string out with it.
Good luck and I sure hope you are able to get it fixed.
Joe

mickd · Post by **mickd** » 17 Jul 2002 9:44 am

Leon - no apology called for. I went out and bought a big G-cramp today (thats what its called in the UK anyway - maybe its called a clamp in the States) so that I can do exactly what you suggested. Its still worth a try, as there is a slight chance that's where the problem is
Joe - thing is, I can't see the slightest sign of any string anywhere. Tom told me to stick a really thin long allen key inside and just fish about, so I will try that and see if anything comes up. I will ask around & see if I can get a thin magnetic screwdriver anyway.

Jon Light · Post by **Jon Light** » 17 Jul 2002 12:48 pm

Yeah--if there's a piece of string still stuck in there, it's WAY stuck and magnetism ain't gonna worry it none. But if Tom's got you fishing, you might try a nail file. I have a pair of ultra thin, ultra long needle nose pliers and that makes a great probe. Even a sliver of thin, stiff plastic (want to cut up your creditcard?) could get between the fingers well.

Leon--I take it as a given that anything anyone posts applies, first and foremost, to their specific example (your Sho-Bud). To apply that to a different situation must be done carefully, intelligently and at one's own risk. I appreciated your suggestion and have it filed away in my brain as one more valuable thing I didn't know before but know now.

Ole Dantoft · Post by **Ole Dantoft** » 17 Jul 2002 4:36 pm

mickd,
Sorry for not seeing this thread before now !

I have a guitar exactly like yours, and when I got it, it had been in it's case for quite some time, following a period of busy road-work. At first I didn't have any problems at all, but after a couple of weeks it developed all sorts of strange tuning-problems, mainly strings not returning to tuned pitch after being pedaled. As it turned out, the changer was all "gummed-up" i.e. there was a sticky substance of old oil and dust and smoke and whatnot everywhere, so I cleaned it as much as I possibly could without taking it apart, and that helped somewhat, but not completely, so I started looking into it - like you've done - with a bright light and I couldn't see anything unusual at first, but I'd seen the advise here on the Forum to turn it upside down and see if anything would fall out of the changer, so I turned a couple of times while excercising the changer thorougly and all of a sudden a ball-end with the usual 1" of string fell out, and NOW when I looked down into the changer there were more where it came from - I pulled no less than 6 STRING-ENDS from the changer, and remember that I couldn't see ANY OF THEM from the beginning !!!

If I were you I'd clean, oil and excercise that changer thorougly, both with the guitar in playing position AND upside down in the case, and then see if I could find that string-end !!

Hope this might help !

Ole[This message was edited by Ole Dantoft on 17 July 2002 at 05:37 PM.]

Jim Smith · Post by **Jim Smith** » 17 Jul 2002 5:15 pm

I'm not familiar with Sierra, but I believe the newer models have a redesigned changer built specifically to prevent the "lost string end" problem you just might have.

If/when you get this resolved, see if you can stuff a piece of foam rubber into the back of the changer to prevent any string ends from falling in there in the future.

Bobby Lee · Post by **Bobby Lee** » 17 Jul 2002 7:41 pm

That's true, Jim. My Sierra Session was made in '96, and the changer fingers have a "hook" that catches the ball end of the string. I used to have a Sierra Crown that had a ball or two stuck in the changer for years.

mickd · Post by **mickd** » 18 Jul 2002 10:51 am

Jim - yes, I heard about the hook; my guitar was made in 93, just before that modification. I certainly will apply the 'foam fix' once I get this sorted out.
Ole - 6 is quite a good crop

. I'd settle for just one right now

. I'll refix a changer rod to string 4 and try what you suggest