Component-assembled steel

Gil Berry · Post by **Gil Berry** » 13 Jul 2002 1:08 pm

You know, I've been kind of in the market for a new PSG for some time and it seems there are many manufacturers out there that make nice, playable, instruments. Most of them, though, make almost the entire PSG from scratch - usually the only "purchased" components are tuners and perhaps pickup coils (even those are "handmade" by some manufacturers). With the number of parts in a QUALITY guitar these days, is it any wonder waiting times for some of the better ones is YEARS! Did you ever stop to think how long you'd have to wait for a new Chevy if ALL THE COMPONENT PARTS were made by one manufacturer (even General Motors!)? Why doesn't some enterprising manufacturer perfect sub-components for the PSG and make them interchangeable? For example, I'd sure like to see someone offer a really deluxe changer (in 10, 12, or 14-string versions) that would be complete with very low friction surfaces, internal lubrication, stainless steel assembled parts - or whatever else the "deluxe" changer would consist of - and offer these components to manufacturers wholesale - or retail to "build you own" nuts. Same for pedal bars, knee levers, cross-shafts, etc. etc. Then the manufacturers could use these off-the-shelf components to custom-assemble guitars - complete with their own trademark stylings and setup - and do it faster and cheaper. Now, I know the PSG is still pretty much an individual, custom-made gadget, individually tailored to suit orders - but - can you imagine how much better - and cheaper - the PSG could be if made from precision, interchangeable component sub-assemblies? What do you think?

Joerg Hennig · Post by **Joerg Hennig** » 13 Jul 2002 1:36 pm

I think the "trademark stylings" you are talking about would be mostly of a cosmetic nature and the guitars would sound pretty much the same. Those pre-fabricated parts would inevitably require some sort of standardization, and as a result, for instance, the way the changer is fixed to the body, which is very responsible for the individual sound of a guitar, would have to be more or less the same. Of course, I´m talking about the natural, un-amplified sound here.
Just my idea,

Joe H.
[This message was edited by Joe Henry on 13 July 2002 at 02:44 PM.]

Chad Smith · Post by **Chad Smith** » 13 Jul 2002 2:16 pm

Gil,

I've been wondering if there was any source for components recently as well, as I'm one of those "build your own nuts"

Had to sell my GFI to keep the family budget afloat this spring, and have been thinking that maybe I could afford to build one and get to pickin' sooner than I'll be able to afford a good quality pro guitar. I saw that Ed Naylor sells PSG kits, but when I e-mailed him for more info he asked me to call him for details (sounds like another recent post, I'd better steer clear of that subject

). I'm interested to see the responses to this thread.

------------------
Chad Smith

Fender B&G Bender Tele
Fender Hot Rod Deluxe
Temporarily "Steel-less in Tucson"

Jim Smith · Post by **Jim Smith** » 13 Jul 2002 2:21 pm

Some manufacturers do get together to buy standard parts to be eligible for high-volume discounts. Some others buy changers, pullers, etc. from each other. I don't know if it's supposed to be public knowledge, so I won't mention names.

Tom Jordan · Post by **Tom Jordan** » 13 Jul 2002 3:35 pm

I for one, would be interested in a guitar like that. It certainly wouldn't replace our beloved "top name" guitars, but wouldn't it be cool to build your own personal PSG from parts...just like all the tele and strat components available. I have a couple of Fender tele's and one that I custom built from warmouth parts that is just as good if not better than the originals.

Yea, I would be cool to go to the catalog and order a changer,body, rods etc., and build your own.

Tom Jordan · Post by **Tom Jordan** » 13 Jul 2002 3:58 pm

Ya know, this topic has gotten into my mind...if you could build a guitar, what would you start with?

Warmouth and others pump out tons of tele and strat parts. I wonder if these folks need to sell under a licence from Fender to duplicate necks and bodys?

I would pick a Sho-bud, I think. This would probably be the easiest to customize. I would like to purchace a single body to start with and have my choice of wood, finished or unfinished...bla, bla, bla...you get the point.

All of these parts have been made in the past so engineering wouldn't be a concern and if an enterprising person started with one particular guitar model to "manufacture", setting up machining would be fairly easy. Rods, bellcranks pedals and such would be same diameter, standard lenghts and spacing. Cost could be within reason by mass producing and we could all be running around with custom guitars.

I don't know if there is enough interest for this to be feasable...we are a pretty small market but guitar freeks every where would probably jump on the chance to "build" their own if parts were available.

I know my ideas are simplistic but I am sure that with the talant involved in this forum that somebody could give us an idea if this kind of venture would have merit or not.

Ponderingly,

Tom Jordan
[This message was edited by Tom Jordan on 13 July 2002 at 05:12 PM.]

Doug Seymour · Post by **Doug Seymour** » 13 Jul 2002 4:19 pm

Maybe I shouldn't mention this, but I thought
John Fabian told me once that the Carter was a component built guitar??? Am I wrong or speaking out of turn?? I hope not! Uncle Doug

Stephen Gambrell · Post by **Stephen Gambrell** » 13 Jul 2002 5:36 pm

I don't quite think it's the same thing, but I've seen several changers on E-Bay, seems like they were pretty reasonable, if a person had the ability to build a steel-----
Gee, maybe that's why they cost so much!

Donny Hinson · Post by **Donny Hinson** » 13 Jul 2002 6:07 pm

I imagine that kit pedal guitars would be even less popular than kit cars. Let see...the prices might be something like this... <pre>

Set of 4 legs..............$90
Pickup (each).............$130
Tuning keys...........$75-$150
Fretboards (each)..........$25
Changer (each).......$200-$350
Endplates (pair)......$75-$150
Pedals (each)..............$20
Pedalboard w/hdwe......$70-$90
Pedal rods w/fittings (ea).$10
Crossrods (ea)..............$7
Pullrods (each).............$6
Bellcranks (each)..........$12
Pivots and stops (each).....$7
Tuning Hd. castings (pair).$39
Body (unfinished).........$140
Misc. Hdwe.................$39
Tuning nuts w/collars (ea)..$6
Case (budget model)........$89
Strings (per set)...........$9</pre>

So, for about $1600, and with a couple hundred man-hours labor, you could build yourself an S10 with 3+4. Another grand would get you a decent D10 w/8+5. Even if my figures are on the high side (and I don't think they are...), you can see why "kits" will never be really popular.

Oh yeah...you might be havin' fun buildin' it, but you really ain't gonna save a dime!

[This message was edited by Donny Hinson on 13 July 2002 at 07:11 PM.]

Al Marcus · Post by **Al Marcus** » 13 Jul 2002 6:32 pm

Doug is right. Carter jobs out their parts and just assembles them. From what I heard as Doug says.To do that they have to buy in large quantities and cary a large inventory of parts.

That is one of the reasons they can ship in 30 days, and sell for less cost than the ones that do it all by hand one at a time....al

Tom Jordan · Post by **Tom Jordan** » 13 Jul 2002 9:02 pm

Donny,

Your figures look reasonable...maybe could knock it down a bit with mass production.

...but cost really isn't the object of building you own is it? I mean we all have one, two, three even more quitars. Its the thought of being able to build my own and with parts that are readily available so's that I don't have to mill them. My warmouth tele cost as much to build as my Mex-Tele cost new. ( I do realize that cost is a major factor to some folks and I don't want to sound snobbish 'cause I am not rich).

I do like to build and tinker. I guess I could buy old guitars and make one custom cool one but the chances of finding even two of the same kind of guitars not to mention same vintage would be hard in my area...also pretty expensive.

I don't think anybody is gonna run out and fire up the mill over this thread but it sure does interest me.

Tom Jordan

richard burton · Post by **richard burton** » 13 Jul 2002 10:24 pm

Carter should be applauded for getting components 'batch made',and then assembling them. Two reasons immediately spring to mind for the superiority of their method: Consistency and accuracy of critical components (I would imagine that the components are made with facilities that the lone steel maker just cannot match), and competitive pricing. This is the only way to go, and my point is ably proved by Carters success.

Jim Smith · Post by **Jim Smith** » 13 Jul 2002 11:46 pm

Jim, if you can furnish proof why would you not mention names. Are you afraid of something. Perhaps you could be "instrumental" in breaking this game up!!!

It's probably not a secret, and it's not a "game". They do it to help keep costs down and to eliminate the need to reinvent the wheel. For example, one company might make changers and trade them with another builder that makes necks. Of course they have to be friends with each other for it to work.

Ed Naylor · Post by **Ed Naylor** » 14 Jul 2002 4:48 am

To Chad Smith-The reason I want people to call {on my 800 #] is the fact I can help more with a 5 minute call than I can with 50 E-mails.build it yourselfers have a thought in mind or a budget limit. I don't go on the forum"Promoting" my goods and services.I take each case seriously and I try to "Fulfill their needs".I get behind because I am overwhelmed with calls and my health affects my schedule.If I feel a person is serious I will take whatever time necessary to help. Ed Naylor Steel Guitar Works. 1-800-749-3363

Sage · Post by **Sage** » 14 Jul 2002 5:03 am

I am the new kid on the block, and am not "in" with anyone, nor do I anticipate being there. Nonetheless, Gordon, I will defend the builder's right to establish working relationships with each other as they choose. The world runs on relationships. Not all relationships are seen- Married couples don't talk about EVERYTHING in front of EVERYONE.
Some relationships should be seen, and when they are not, we get ripped off, like ENRON. What we are talking about here is NOT Enron. They are doing you the courtesy of making the best instrument they can for you, and I don't know of anyone in this business who gets rich off of it.
The truth is as complex as the world we live in. It doesn't mean that it doesn't exist, it does mean that finding it requires some perspective. If you look at a black and white photograph really close up, you will see that it is made with dots of pure black on a background of pure white- if you like looking at pixels. If you back up to the point where it actually looks like a picture, you will notice that most of it falls in shades of grey.
As John Prine sings- "It's a big old goofy world"
T. Sage Harmos
Harmos Steel Guitars[This message was edited by Sage on 14 July 2002 at 06:08 AM.]

Chad Smith · Post by **Chad Smith** » 14 Jul 2002 5:05 am

Ed,

I understand completely, and apologize for any misunderstanding. I re-read your e-mail yesterday and have responded to it with my address and phone number as you requested. I look forward to receiving some information, and talking with you on the phone about different options I may have.

Best Regards,

------------------
Chad Smith

Fender B&G Bender Tele
Fender Hot Rod Deluxe
Temporarily "Steel-less in Tucson"

Donny Hinson · Post by **Donny Hinson** » 14 Jul 2002 5:29 am

Gil, my "shopping list" post above was just an illustration to show what the individual parts might cost someone who's interested in "doing it himself". As with most "kit stuff" (like cars), it costs as much, or more, than factory-built stuff. Whether you get something better when you build it yourself depends on the individual's skills, patience, and attention to detail. About half of the "kit builders" out there (regardless of what they're building) eventually wind up with an incomplete pile of junk. It takes a lot of dedication to do a big kit project, and the average Joe out there just doesn't have it.

Steels today are somewhat like cars...in that people sometimes don't know what they want. What's best, a 14-hole bellcrank, or a 2-hole? in the grand scheme of playing, what difference do all the technical changes make? Whereas most people finally settle on a car model they are happy with, I'd say over half of the steelplayers I've met are "frustrated tinkerers". It's hard to please this type of buyer with "standardized" gear. Rather than just learning to play the average gear, they go on an endless odyssey of buying, changing, swapping, improving, finetuning, and...in short...being forever dissatisfied with their "sound". (The really good one's realize that most of it isn't in the equipment, anyway.)

Standardizing is only possible when you can convince the customers that it's beneficial. A quick perusal of the FORUM will find ET vs. JI, Emmons vs. Sho-Bud, Lawrence vs. George L., D10 vs. universal, Peavey vs. Fender, "D" on top vs. "G", etc., etc., etc., ad infinitum. In short, these guys are seldom happy, or in agreement, on anything!

"Standardizing" in the world of the PSG? Surely you jest!

Bill Moore · Post by **Bill Moore** » 14 Jul 2002 7:00 am

Quite a few years ago, Tom Bradshaw wrote an article on this subject. Tom is pretty experienced at rebuilding, repairing, steels, much more then the adverage "tinkerer", who is thinking about building a steel. His point was, it would be easier and wiser for a person to find a part time job, and save the money earned to buy a new guitar. He will have a new steel sooner and cheaper.

------------------
Bill Moore

my steel guitar web page