Does a less cluttered undercarriage produce better tone?

Ken Byng · From: Southampton, England

I have read a couple of posts by prominent players who expound the theory that the more pulls on a pedal steel, the more this will impact on its overall tone. This may make sense in as much that there is more chance of body dampening with additional levers and pedals mounted to the body. I have a loaded Zum, and did have a loaded D10 push pull until I had a couple of levers removed. It may have been my imagination but my push pull seemed to sustain more with just 4 levers on it.
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Georg Sørtun · From: Mandal, Agder, Norway

Your "imagination" and reasoning sound credible.

Talking tiny amounts here, but especially levers mounted on (screwed onto) the top-plate may couple the knee in as a dampener of body resonances when operated, and this may have audible effects. Where under the top-plate a lever is mounted may then (also) make a difference.

I think a lever, or pedal, mounted on a cross-shaft connected only to the frame will make less of a difference - even if cross-shaft gets inserted/removed along with it, because of the reduced coupling to the body.

chris ivey · From: california (deceased)

i would think that the difference would be unnoticeable and easily compensated for by the players skill and performance.

Tom Quinn · Posted 27 Sep 2011 4:16 pm

Makes a huge difference. A Sho-Bud Maverick will sound WAY better than a D-10 Emmons for just that reason.
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Dan Beller-McKenna · From: Durham, New Hampshire, USA

Ken Byng · From: Southampton, England

Jason Hull · Posted 28 Sep 2011 2:39 am

Tom Quinn · Posted 28 Sep 2011 4:31 am

Well Ken, it's called psychic phenomena, sorta like how the British would know what it felt like to beat the Germans at soccer...
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Justin Griffith · From: Taylor, Texas, USA

What a great topic gang!

I have always had this though in the back of my mind. I have added levers, changes, etc to guitars for several people and myself. I have always "thought" I could hear a slight difference in tone.

I won't name the player or the guitar builder but I know a guy who had a SD-10 guitar that he ordered new with 3X5. He sent it back to the builder to add a "a few levers" and when it came back he claimed the tone and increased cabinet drop made the guitar change drastically, not in a good way.

I would sure be interested in hearing your experiences with this.
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Larry Behm · From: Mt Angel, Or 97362

I once saw and heard a D10 PP with no knee levers just 8 pedals. It had tone and sustain to die for. Makes one think.

Larry Behm
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Georg Sørtun · From: Mandal, Agder, Norway

Pedal/lever attachments do create nodes in the tone-body. Making the attachment of a mechanical part play particularly well with how vibrations spread through the tone-body is near impossible, since parts are mounted where they "play well" with the player and other mechanics - not the tone of the instrument.

Jim Cohen · From: Philadelphia, PA

Years ago, I bought my first Emmons pushpull, a simple 70's era S-10 with 3+4. I wanted to find out what all the fuss was about. Got it home, set it up, and... as soon as I strummed it the very first time, I almost jumped back in shock. It was alive! I had never heard such a vibrant "alive" tone come out of a steel guitar before. So then, since I'm really a D-10 guy and don't have much use for an S-10, I sold it and bought a D-10 pushpull (with 8+8, I think). It was a great guitar but it just did not have that 'vibrancy' that the little S-10 did.

Ever since then, I have believed (rightly or wrongly?) that the D-10 just had too much metal underneath it, binding up the wood and limiting the ability of the cabinet to resonate with the strings. But that little bitty S-10, ah that's the one that got away...
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Ken Byng · From: Southampton, England

Richard Damron · From: Gallatin, Tennessee, USA (deceased)

Much of the above is purely anecdotal - without experimental evidence to support the observations. Further, the claimed "improvements" might very well apply to a particular instrument and not to PSG's in the aggregate.

The research has not been done.

Having said that - and yielding to an anecdote or two - it suggests that an aluminum sub-frame be constructed and to which all of the constituent parts are fastened thus leaving the bulk of the cabinet - particularly the unencumbered top - to contribute "whatever" to the tone and sustain (decay) parameters of the instrument. Neglecting other obvious constraints, this configuration would leave a builder with the flexibility to experiment with various woods, grain orientation, thickness, etc.. It might also lead to a form of "tuning" of the top plate in order to attain a desired response. Violins, anyone?

Any of you venturesome builders up to the task?

Richard

Ken Byng · From: Southampton, England

Jim Cohen

Your post succinctly sums up my point. And you are someone whose views I respect - you are a player.

The question is this. Is cabinet resonance compromised the more metalwork is strapped underneath? I don't know, and would agree that any theories would be unscientific and purely anecdotal.
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Jim Cohen · From: Philadelphia, PA

Richard,

I think that might have been the intent underlying the "Performance" brand of guitar that Jerry Brightman designed and built. As I recall, the entire undercarriage slid out from the end of the guitar (after popping off the endplate and probably removing a few screws), which means that it was not firmly attached to the body as in most (all?) other brands.

Thank you, Ken.
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Jerry Overstreet · From: Louisville Ky

I don't know, but I'd be very surprised to find that adding more KL's and pulls makes any difference at all.

Easy enough to find out. Buy a D10 with 8+4. Record it. Add 4 KL's and 1 pedal. Record it again under exactly the same conditions, settings, player, gear, recording desk etc.

There's probably a way to measure the acoustic resonance before and after too for whatever that would tell you.

I added 4 KL's to a Mullen several years ago. I wasn't really looking for differences, but I'm sure my picky ears woulda noticed it.

Wouldn't matter if it did. I gotta have all my cabbage on my axes.

Jim Cohen · From: Philadelphia, PA

Well, Jerry, you might be right. In my anecdote, the amount of metal attached wasn't the only difference between the S-10 and the D-10. The D-10 also had, obviously, a bigger hunk of wood that, regardless of pedals and KLs, might make a difference. Which leads to the question of whether an S-10 (E9) sounds any different from the E9 neck of a D-10. Don't know if there's any consistent answer to that question, given that different guitars of the same make, with the same copedent can sound different too. BTW, an SD-10 could be an interesting mid-way comparison between the S-10 and D-10: same hardware, more wood.

If anyone can do this experiment systematically, it's Ed Packer. (Only trouble is he'll give you so much data he'll leave your head spinning Wink

)
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Jerry Overstreet · From: Louisville Ky

I see Jim. I reread your post. But you're talking about 2 different guitars. I've seen tonal differences etc. between 2 guitars of even the same brand and model.

For any qualitative test, wouldn't the comparison have to be made + and - hardware on the same guitar?

But what do I know Question

Richard Damron · From: Gallatin, Tennessee, USA (deceased)

Jim -

Have not run into Jerry's creation. However, the implied notion in my post attends to the typical violin top. Excepting the sound post, the top is attached at the edges, leaving the top to vibrate in modes determined, in part, by the wood, itself, and the shape - contour - as sculpted by the builder. In both cases, the energy of the vibrating string is coupled into said top - be it via a bridge or a changer. Granted, there is an acoustic factor to the violin not to be found in the PSG. Nonetheless, there is a crude analogy which, in my opinion, deserves to be investigated - the results of which might lead to a "yay" or "nay" regarding the initial premise of this thread.

Sure would be nice to know.

Richard

Jerry Overstreet · From: Louisville Ky

Maybe I missed something. I thought my comments did address the premise of the OP. Confused

Jim Cohen · From: Philadelphia, PA

Richard Damron · From: Gallatin, Tennessee, USA (deceased)

Jerry Overstreet -

Point well taken regarding the +/- hardware. Of more interest to me is the well known fact that you've voiced in your opening statement.

If one assumes - and probably correctly - that the hardware from one instrument to another (of the same brand and model) approaches a degree of identical precision then the singular and major variant is that of the wood, itself. My suggestion regarding the isolation of the top then lends itself to a series of experiments which would tend to ascertain the importance of the wood in various types and configurations as regards the tone and sustain of the instrument. Such experiments might well enlighten us as to your observation.

Richard

Roger Rettig · From: Naples, FL

Oh, dear - I hope not!!!

R. Rettig
(Emmons LeGrande - 8+9) Whoa!

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Ken Byng · From: Southampton, England

9 levers Roger??? No wonder you have your head in hands! Laughing

That's what you call a loaded guitar.
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