Does a less cluttered undercarriage produce better tone?

Ken Byng · Post by **Ken Byng** » 27 Sep 2011 4:54 am

I have read a couple of posts by prominent players who expound the theory that the more pulls on a pedal steel, the more this will impact on its overall tone. This may make sense in as much that there is more chance of body dampening with additional levers and pedals mounted to the body. I have a loaded Zum, and did have a loaded D10 push pull until I had a couple of levers removed. It may have been my imagination but my push pull seemed to sustain more with just 4 levers on it.

chris ivey · Post by **chris ivey** » 27 Sep 2011 3:52 pm

i would think that the difference would be unnoticeable and easily compensated for by the players skill and performance.

Tom Quinn · Post by **Tom Quinn** » 27 Sep 2011 4:16 pm

Makes a huge difference. A Sho-Bud Maverick will sound WAY better than a D-10 Emmons for just that reason.

Dan Beller-McKenna · Post by **Dan Beller-McKenna** » 27 Sep 2011 4:45 pm

Ken Byng · Post by **Ken Byng** » 28 Sep 2011 12:49 am

Tom Quinn wrote:Makes a huge difference. A Sho-Bud Maverick will sound WAY better than a D-10 Emmons for just that reason.

How on earth would you know?

Jason Hull · Post by **Jason Hull** » 28 Sep 2011 2:39 am

Tom Quinn · Post by **Tom Quinn** » 28 Sep 2011 4:31 am

Well Ken, it's called psychic phenomena, sorta like how the British would know what it felt like to beat the Germans at soccer...

Justin Griffith · Post by **Justin Griffith** » 28 Sep 2011 5:26 am

What a great topic gang!

I have always had this though in the back of my mind. I have added levers, changes, etc to guitars for several people and myself. I have always "thought" I could hear a slight difference in tone.

I won't name the player or the guitar builder but I know a guy who had a SD-10 guitar that he ordered new with 3X5. He sent it back to the builder to add a "a few levers" and when it came back he claimed the tone and increased cabinet drop made the guitar change drastically, not in a good way.

I would sure be interested in hearing your experiences with this.

Larry Behm · Post by **Larry Behm** » 28 Sep 2011 6:01 am

I once saw and heard a D10 PP with no knee levers just 8 pedals. It had tone and sustain to die for. Makes one think.

Larry Behm

Jim Cohen · Post by **Jim Cohen** » 28 Sep 2011 6:05 am

Years ago, I bought my first Emmons pushpull, a simple 70's era S-10 with 3+4. I wanted to find out what all the fuss was about. Got it home, set it up, and... as soon as I strummed it the very first time, I almost jumped back in shock. It was alive! I had never heard such a vibrant "alive" tone come out of a steel guitar before. So then, since I'm really a D-10 guy and don't have much use for an S-10, I sold it and bought a D-10 pushpull (with 8+8, I think). It was a great guitar but it just did not have that 'vibrancy' that the little S-10 did.

Ever since then, I have believed (rightly or wrongly?) that the D-10 just had too much metal underneath it, binding up the wood and limiting the ability of the cabinet to resonate with the strings. But that little bitty S-10, ah that's the one that got away...

Ken Byng · Post by **Ken Byng** » 28 Sep 2011 9:09 am

Tom Quinn wrote:Well Ken, it's called psychic phenomena, sorta like how the British would know what it felt like to beat the Germans at soccer...

How did I know that the word British or English would come into this. Very predictable. I am interested how someone who doesn't play knows about tone. A bit like Stevie Wonder having an opinion on a painting.

Richard Damron · Post by **Richard Damron** » 28 Sep 2011 9:10 am

Much of the above is purely anecdotal - without experimental evidence to support the observations. Further, the claimed "improvements" might very well apply to a particular instrument and not to PSG's in the aggregate.

The research has not been done.

Having said that - and yielding to an anecdote or two - it suggests that an aluminum sub-frame be constructed and to which all of the constituent parts are fastened thus leaving the bulk of the cabinet - particularly the unencumbered top - to contribute "whatever" to the tone and sustain (decay) parameters of the instrument. Neglecting other obvious constraints, this configuration would leave a builder with the flexibility to experiment with various woods, grain orientation, thickness, etc.. It might also lead to a form of "tuning" of the top plate in order to attain a desired response. Violins, anyone?

Any of you venturesome builders up to the task?

Richard

Ken Byng · Post by **Ken Byng** » 28 Sep 2011 9:16 am

Jim Cohen

Your post succinctly sums up my point. And you are someone whose views I respect - you are a player.

The question is this. Is cabinet resonance compromised the more metalwork is strapped underneath? I don't know, and would agree that any theories would be unscientific and purely anecdotal.

Jim Cohen · Post by **Jim Cohen** » 28 Sep 2011 9:19 am

Richard,

I think that might have been the intent underlying the "Performance" brand of guitar that Jerry Brightman designed and built. As I recall, the entire undercarriage slid out from the end of the guitar (after popping off the endplate and probably removing a few screws), which means that it was not firmly attached to the body as in most (all?) other brands.

Thank you, Ken.

Jerry Overstreet · Post by **Jerry Overstreet** » 28 Sep 2011 9:30 am

I don't know, but I'd be very surprised to find that adding more KL's and pulls makes any difference at all.

Easy enough to find out. Buy a D10 with 8+4. Record it. Add 4 KL's and 1 pedal. Record it again under exactly the same conditions, settings, player, gear, recording desk etc.

There's probably a way to measure the acoustic resonance before and after too for whatever that would tell you.

I added 4 KL's to a Mullen several years ago. I wasn't really looking for differences, but I'm sure my picky ears woulda noticed it.

Wouldn't matter if it did. I gotta have all my cabbage on my axes.

Jim Cohen · Post by **Jim Cohen** » 28 Sep 2011 9:37 am

Well, Jerry, you might be right. In my anecdote, the amount of metal attached wasn't the only difference between the S-10 and the D-10. The D-10 also had, obviously, a bigger hunk of wood that, regardless of pedals and KLs, might make a difference. Which leads to the question of whether an S-10 (E9) sounds any different from the E9 neck of a D-10. Don't know if there's any consistent answer to that question, given that different guitars of the same make, with the same copedent can sound different too. BTW, an SD-10 could be an interesting mid-way comparison between the S-10 and D-10: same hardware, more wood.

If anyone can do this experiment systematically, it's Ed Packer. (Only trouble is he'll give you so much data he'll leave your head spinning

)

Jerry Overstreet · Post by **Jerry Overstreet** » 28 Sep 2011 9:44 am

I see Jim. I reread your post. But you're talking about 2 different guitars. I've seen tonal differences etc. between 2 guitars of even the same brand and model.

For any qualitative test, wouldn't the comparison have to be made + and - hardware on the same guitar?

But what do I know

Richard Damron · Post by **Richard Damron** » 28 Sep 2011 9:46 am

Jim -

Have not run into Jerry's creation. However, the implied notion in my post attends to the typical violin top. Excepting the sound post, the top is attached at the edges, leaving the top to vibrate in modes determined, in part, by the wood, itself, and the shape - contour - as sculpted by the builder. In both cases, the energy of the vibrating string is coupled into said top - be it via a bridge or a changer. Granted, there is an acoustic factor to the violin not to be found in the PSG. Nonetheless, there is a crude analogy which, in my opinion, deserves to be investigated - the results of which might lead to a "yay" or "nay" regarding the initial premise of this thread.

Sure would be nice to know.

Richard

Jerry Overstreet · Post by **Jerry Overstreet** » 28 Sep 2011 9:53 am

Maybe I missed something. I thought my comments did address the premise of the OP.

Jim Cohen · Post by **Jim Cohen** » 28 Sep 2011 10:02 am

Jerry Overstreet wrote:

For any qualitative test, wouldn't the comparison have to be made + and - hardware on the same guitar?

I agree that would be the strongest test, and it can potentially answer some questions but not others (e.g., whether having the C6 pedals and KLs, and larger wood body, on a D-10 affects the sound of the E9 neck, or would be different from the sound of an E9 on an S-10 with same setup but less wood). There are many different questions that could be posed, each requiring a different experiment to be done, if one had the time and inclination.

Richard Damron · Post by **Richard Damron** » 28 Sep 2011 10:08 am

Jerry Overstreet -

Point well taken regarding the +/- hardware. Of more interest to me is the well known fact that you've voiced in your opening statement.

If one assumes - and probably correctly - that the hardware from one instrument to another (of the same brand and model) approaches a degree of identical precision then the singular and major variant is that of the wood, itself. My suggestion regarding the isolation of the top then lends itself to a series of experiments which would tend to ascertain the importance of the wood in various types and configurations as regards the tone and sustain of the instrument. Such experiments might well enlighten us as to your observation.

Richard

Roger Rettig · Post by **Roger Rettig** » 28 Sep 2011 10:11 am

Oh, dear - I hope not!!!

R. Rettig
(Emmons LeGrande - 8+9)

Ken Byng · Post by **Ken Byng** » 28 Sep 2011 10:28 am

9 levers Roger??? No wonder you have your head in hands!

That's what you call a loaded guitar.