Notorious Byrd Brothers

Chip Fossa · Post by **Chip Fossa** » 2 Jul 2011 12:05 pm

...Not sure if it's JD Manness, Red Rhodes, or Lloyd Green.....

But here is another example of pedal steel in a most unlikely format. There's not much of it, but what little there is......well, you'll get the picture. (I hope)

You talk about taste?; and knowing when to come in?
A quintessential song, about this topic.

Who thought this up, anyway? Just blows me away.

"Change Is Now"

http://picosong.com/6f4

Bob Carlucci · Post by **Bob Carlucci** » 2 Jul 2011 12:24 pm

Hey Mr Chip.. You sure we aren't related?... We have the exact same, identical, joined at the hip taste in music my brother....
To answer your question, Wiki credits Red Rhodes as the steel player on that album. Makes sense too. It sounds like Red to me...

THIS song is in the top five songs of all time to me.. I still shiver when I hear the steel interplay with Clarance's [RIP] tele... A lot of guys say its not a steel, but I know it is.... That little appeggiated figure that opens the song is a steel... Besides that, Red is given credit in various places.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UGG1yb3BvUY

Stephen LeBlanc · Post by **Stephen LeBlanc** » 2 Jul 2011 12:42 pm

Bob Carlucci wrote:Hey Mr Chip.. You sure we aren't related?... We have the exact same, identical, joined at the hip taste in music my brother....
To answer your question, Wiki credits Red Rhodes as the steel player on that album. Makes sense too. It sounds like Red to me...

THIS song is in the top five songs of all time to me.. I still shiver when I hear the steel interplay with Clarance's [RIP] tele... A lot of guys say its not a steel, but I know it is.... That little appeggiated figure that opens the song is a steel... Besides that, Red is given credit in various places.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UGG1yb3BvUY

fwiw, I didn't hear a pedal steel in that clip you posted but you could be right.

On "Change is Now" I'd agree it's probably Red.

Chip Fossa · Post by **Chip Fossa** » 2 Jul 2011 1:16 pm

OK - I mistakenly sent out ARTIFICIAL ENERGY at the beginning of this post. Confusion there, maybe.

Bobby Carlooch...

Ah - waddaya no?

You da best, brother. I got old pics of you from maybe 6-9 years ago; you were keepin' those honeys front and center at some kinda outdoor festival.

I always felt you and I had the same kind of likes.

The espionage police who patrol this SGF, always wish you (anyone) would go away; when you get TOO vocal.

We like to think it's democratic here.....BUUTT???????

Hey, from Hopalong Cassadeech, BYRDS win the Stupid Bowl.

Bob Carlucci · Post by **Bob Carlucci** » 2 Jul 2011 1:24 pm

Chip... Was I playing a little Willy Keyless?.... Probably the Ithaca Festival.. If possible I would really appreciate you forwarding that pic. I am certainly homely, but that was a pretty decent picture of me if I recall correctly, and these days I need every confidence booster I can get... I think I actually had some hair when that was taken!... bob

Chip Fossa · Post by **Chip Fossa** » 2 Jul 2011 1:59 pm

Bobby...

I got a lot of stuff to go thru, to find your mug.

It's gonna take some time.

.....eH? For ewe? We are locked and loaded.

....just to no you're back and wid-us? Dat's all
Hopalong needs to know........

admin · Post by **b0b** » 2 Jul 2011 2:10 pm

Chip Fossa wrote:The espionage police who patrol this SGF, always wish you (anyone) would go away; when you get TOO vocal.

FWIW, both of you guys are always welcome here.

Red Rhodes plaque in the Steel Guitar Hall Of Fame:
<center><hr>
ORVILLE “RED” RHODES

RECORDING ARTIST, BANDLEADER, PERFORMER AND L.A.’S MOST PROLIFIC
SESSION PLAYER DURING THE ‘60S AND ‘70S. HE CONTRIBUTED GREATLY TO
STEEL’S EXPOSURE AND INTEGRATION INTO THE ROCK AND POP MUSIC OF HIS
PERIOD. AN INVENTIVE DESIGNER OF PICKUPS, AMPLIFIER CIRCUITRY, AS WELL
AS STEEL’S CABINETRY (THE RHODES’ STRUT), HE WAS FOREMOST, A GENEROUS
MENTOR TO THREE GENERATIONS OF FUTURE PROFESSIONAL PLAYERS.

BORN: DECEMBER 30, 1930 EAST ALTON, ILLINOIS
DIED: AUGUST 20, 1995
INDUCTED: 2005
<hr></center>

Chip Fossa · Post by **Chip Fossa** » 2 Jul 2011 4:02 pm

Thank you, Unca b0b.
Here's more to my point...

Bobby Carlucci. Quit posting because he was harrassed to no end. I know this because I've been a member and supporter of this great forum ever since August 1998, and have followed and watched many posters. Folks that don't know me, I don't know them......

Bill Hankey.......another demonstrative individual.

Lives roughly 50-60 miles from me. Bill Hankey is a great man. Yeah, he's a bit quirky, and gets to being very verbose, at times.

So what?

........actually, Bill's posts and his overall demeanor, has put a lot of punch, or kept a lot of punch going, on the SGF.

Everybody loves to kick ole' Bill Hankey.

....I love ole' Bill....

This place would really be compromised, if Bill just went away,

....what I really love ........is when Bill and Charlie get into it.....endless guffaws

Aren't all of us tryin' to have some fun here????

admin · Post by **b0b** » 2 Jul 2011 4:50 pm

That's more a topic for the Forum Feedback section, Chip. Let's keep this one about Red Rhodes, okay? He deserves that.

Duncan Hodge · Post by **Duncan Hodge** » 2 Jul 2011 4:54 pm

Yes, Chip, some of us are still trying to have some fun "round here". It always gets a little more fun when you post one, or two, or even three...well you get the picture, of your beautifully digitized songs from The Byrds catalog. Please keep them coming. I don't care if its Red, Lloyd, JD, or Joe S**t the Ragman on steel. You are stirring up wonderful memories.
Duncan

Brendan Mitchell · Post by **Brendan Mitchell** » 2 Jul 2011 6:03 pm

Sounds like Red to me .
Not that I can pick him out of a line up .In fact the only stuff of his I have REALLY listened to is his work on a Mike Nezsmith album {which was a constant source of learning for me }.The steel on the posted track has a similar sound and feel .

Brint Hannay · Post by **Brint Hannay** » 2 Jul 2011 9:26 pm

Bob Carlucci wrote:Hey Mr Chip.. You sure we aren't related?... We have the exact same, identical, joined at the hip taste in music my brother....
To answer your question, Wiki credits Red Rhodes as the steel player on that album. Makes sense too. It sounds like Red to me...

THIS song is in the top five songs of all time to me.. I still shiver when I hear the steel interplay with Clarance's [RIP] tele... A lot of guys say its not a steel, but I know it is.... That little appeggiated figure that opens the song is a steel... Besides that, Red is given credit in various places.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UGG1yb3BvUY

The liner notes in the CD booklet credit Red as the steel player on the album. (One would like to think those would be authoritative, but I have encountered obvious inaccuracies in liner notes. $:\$ )

I don't think there's any question that the arpeggiated figure at the beginning of "Wasn't Born To Follow" is steel.

The steel also makes significant contribution on "Goin' Back." Only found this one YouTube clip where McGuinn, Hillman, Gene Clark (!), and Michael Clarke half-heartedly half-pretend to be performing while the studio track is played--why is that ever done??!!--on the Smothers Brothers show, and unfortunately the early fadeout behind applause obscures the recording's fade outro where the steel has the last word:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=olqvPg3GL1M

Joachim Kettner · Post by **Joachim Kettner** » 2 Jul 2011 10:49 pm

I don't know which song Bob C. posted, because it's not allowed to watch over here. Maybe it is, or it is not "Get To You".
You really need your headphones, to hear the steel embedded in the little orchestra consisting of strings and a flute.
Maybe you would put this one up also, Chip?
By the way the lyrics at the end are: Oh, that's a little better

Peer Desmense · Post by **Peer Desmense** » 3 Jul 2011 12:02 am

Who is singing the high harmonies in this album?
It is said that David Crosby wasn't a Byrd at that time any more, but there's someone singing the highs he used to sing.
Peer

Jason Odd · Post by **Jason Odd** » 3 Jul 2011 3:13 am

There's been a lot of debate over who played on what during The Notorious Byrds Brothers sessions, which is one of my top five albums of all time, and my absolute fave Byrds set.
Carl (Pouncey) West is the uncredited steel player on Goin' Back, I don't care what anyone else claims, assumes or has read in the past. Not trying to jump on anyone, just wanted to get that up front.
Carl was in one Columbia studio cutting a Jerry Inman LP for Columbia and they fetched him for the overdub. The studio logs for both sessions back up against each other, and the session log reprinted in the deluxe version simply lists "Steel Guitar".. no name.

Just saying, Carl told me about the session in the years we swapped emails before he passed away.
Since he has passed, I have found out about other sessions that Carl mentioned, he didn't receive credit in most cases because they ended up unissued, like the Everly Brothers original cut of Love Of The Common People.

It's most likely Red Rhodes on all the other tracks featuring steel. It kind of goes without saying that he was the main steel session guy used by rock producers in Los Angeles at the time, and I think it's the first Byrds' LP he played on. Hillman had used Red for a Gosdin Brothers session prior to the Notorious sessions.

Jay Dee didn't get in on the whole Byrds trip until Gram brought him on for the Sweetheart sessions in 1968, of course Gram had used Jay Dee for his prior recording project the International Submarine Band.

Crosby is indeed on some of the tracks of the Notorious LP, he left or was fired whichever person you believe on that topic, but he did contribute to about half the tracks. Gene Clark rejoined while they were cutting the album, it's generally considered that he didn't add anything during sessions, but that's still under debate.

J.

Chip Fossa · Post by **Chip Fossa** » 3 Jul 2011 3:37 am

OK, all.

First Up: Unca b0b. I do apologize for straying off-topic. I would never-ever think of taking anything away from the great Red Rhodes. People here WRITE in the moment - it's a quick thing; cuz if you don't get the thought/idea out, it'll get lost or blurred. So in the heat-of-the-moment, rules, sometime are not in the picture. And that's why you have a job, see?

Duncan - you rascal. By your quote, I can tell you're a "Fear and Loathing in Las Vegas" fan. Me too.
RIP Hunter S. Thompson

Part 2:

Here are those mentioned-above songs, unadulterated:

"Goin' Back" (written by Carol King)
http://picosong.com/Rxy

"Wasn't Born To Follow"
http://picosong.com/65T

...and Peer, yes Crosby was not with the Byrds anymore when NBB came out. I don't know who sang that high harmony.

Anyway, here IS Crosby singing high harmony on an obscure Byrd's song, "Changing Heart" - off of their 'reunited' album, when all original members put their collective egos to rest and made this final hurrah.
Mike Clarke (original drummer) may have been deceased at this time; not too sure on that one.And Gene Clarke has left us also RIP.

I'm trying to sneak this in now, in the hopes that Unca b0b ain't gonna slap me on the wrists.

"Changing Heart" (if this isn't quintessential Byrd harmonies...poke my eye out - just a great song and arrangement; sorry though, no steel)
http://picosong.com/RbB

Oh well, I'm in trouble now anyway, so here's another favorite - no steel - but Clarence White sounding like steel:
"Oil In My Lamp"
http://picosong.com/RYi

Chip Fossa · Post by **Chip Fossa** » 3 Jul 2011 4:06 am

Thanks Jason....

Unquestionably, a music historian of good repute.

Kevin Hatton · Post by **Kevin Hatton** » 3 Jul 2011 5:00 am

Jason, good to have you here.

Jason Odd · Post by **Jason Odd** » 3 Jul 2011 6:56 am

Thanks guys, Notorious is the album that hipped me to pedal steel, the next steel related album I got was the Flying Burrito Brothers debut.

For the Byrds' version of "Goin' Back" Crosby apparently sat out for most of the session, the natural assumption is that this was due to the song was up against his own "Draft Morning".
On a side note, Mike Clarke was a no show fo rthis date, and session drummer Jim Gordon was on the date instead.
Strangely enough everyone makes note of the fact that Crosby was no longer a Byrd when Notorious was released, but Mike Clarke had also left the band before the LP came out in early 1968.

Chip Fossa · Post by **Chip Fossa** » 3 Jul 2011 7:04 am

Brint...

Not quite convinced about the intro to "Wasn't Born To Follow".

The beginning of the song is sorta convoluted anyway.

But I hear Mcguinn's 12-string Rickenbacker actually starting off the song.

I've played this song 257 times.

If you play straight guitar, here's how it goes:

Bar a G chord and start fingerpicking. It goes from G to C kinda quickly. When going to the C chord, simply
use this fingering: 1st finger/fret3[E string];
3rd finger/fret5[G string]; and 4th finger/fret5.

Then a lead guitar comes in. I really think it's Clarence White. Believe it or not, I don't think there's steel guitar in this song.

Joachim Kettner · Post by **Joachim Kettner** » 3 Jul 2011 7:21 am

They put the horse on the cover, where Crosby should have been. It was ironic.
And it wasn't that Michael Clark didn't want to play on "Draft Morning" it was that Crosby thought he didn't play it right, so they brought in another drummer, Jim Gordon (?). You can hear the two disputing on an outtake from the sessions... it's almost unbearable. But I guess that's the way musicians are, sometimes.

Chip Fossa · Post by **Chip Fossa** » 3 Jul 2011 7:29 am

Ah...

Keep it comin' everyone.

This is ripening-up now.

Brint Hannay · Post by **Brint Hannay** » 3 Jul 2011 7:30 am

Jason, note my caveat about what the liner notes say!
And, fortuitously, my (careful) wording was that "the steel" makes significant contribution to "Goin' Back.":)

According to the liner notes (ahem), it was "Triad" that Crosby sat out the "Goin' Back" session because of.

Chip, the arpeggiated major-triad-to-sus4 figure that opens the intro and runs through the song on "Wasn't Born..." sure sounds like steel to me. Doesn't sound at all like twelve-string to my ear. Consider: it's a sustaining three-note arpeggio--that means three strings. How can a three-note arpeggio be played on a twelve-string without at least the bottom note being played on an octave pair? Only the top two "strings" of a twelve-string are unisons. And I don't hear any lower octaves sounding in the arpeggio. Anyway, the tone sounds like steel.

Joachim, the song that Crosby and Clarke are arguing over in the hidden outtake on the CD is actually "Dolphins Smile."

Chip Fossa · Post by **Chip Fossa** » 3 Jul 2011 7:51 am

You got me there Brint. Your explanation is very valid, indeed. But, I don't understand a lot of music talk - like the lower octave on a twelve string. I have a twelve string Rickenbacker. I just play it.

Why isn't anyone else chiming in here? On this enigma.

Roger (Jim) Mcguinn was and always will be the BYRD.
I'm gonna go to his website and ask him to clarify this. I'll bet he's unclear about it, too.

I'm figurin' he was just the one who would open that song.

I'm 64 now, and my hearing is seriously compromised [mainly from sitting in front of an electric
amplifier with volume set at least 6+ and above for 25-30 years], so I could be wrong. It's happened before.

Joachim Kettner · Post by **Joachim Kettner** » 3 Jul 2011 8:19 am

Yes Brint it was "Dolphin's Smile" where they didn't get along.
As I hear it "Wasn't born to follow" starts with steel and acoustic, then in comes McGuinn, then Clarence.
Wonderful topic! Thanks, Chip.