New pedal steel player, looking for Ben Keith like tone

Robby Osenton · Post by **Robby Osenton** » 18 Nov 2010 9:10 am

A good friend of mine loaned me his Sho-Bud crossover. It needed a little love, so I got it working and in tune (took about 5 hours! those things are crazy). Ive been teaching myself how to play over the last month or so, it is tough, but a lot of fun. here is a recording I made yesterday: http://hazyjenny.bandcamp.com/

I wanted to start playing pedal steel because I love Ben Keith's contributions to Neil Young's music. I would like to get something similar to that sound. I also have a bad back, so am looking for something significantly lighter than the crossover (it has to be at least 100lbs!). I have around 2k that I could spend. Any suggestions? I am thinking I should get a single neck to keep the weight down.

I know Keith played a p/p Emmons 3+1, and I have heard the p/p guitars have the best tone. Was emmons the only p/p manufacturer, and what does p/p mean? I know Emmons double necks are over my budget, but I havent been able to find a single neck for sale anywhere, what do they go for?

Thanks for the help!

Jerry Hayes · Post by **Jerry Hayes** » 19 Nov 2010 7:03 am

Robbie, P/P means "push/pull" which means that the guitar's pedals pull the changer to raise the strings and pushes it to lower them! I think that most any single neck Emmmons p/p would have three floor pedals and at least 4 knee levers. I think you probably would need the Emmons to get Ben's sound and maybe a Fender tube amp if one's available. I loved the tone he got doing the fills on "Heart of Gold" and "Old Man Take a Look at my Life"......JH in Va.

Danny Bates · Post by **Danny Bates** » 19 Nov 2010 7:30 am

Robby, nice track you made.

I have Emmons push/pulls, Sho-Buds and a guitar called a "Stage One". The Stage One is what I recommend. It is priced great, lightweight and sounds great. The light weight is a lot better than possible back pain.

If you've only been messing around with a steel guitar for a month or so, I believe you have a natural talent for it. Get a Stage One, a volume pedal, a good amp and you're on your way.

To find out more, go to the search function and type in "Stage AND One" to see what people think of them.

Here's a link...
http://www.stageonesteelguitars.com/

admin · Post by **b0b** » 19 Nov 2010 10:01 am

You could get very close to Ben Keith's sound with a Carter pro model S-10. It would be a lot lighter than an Emmons push-pull.

David Mason · Post by **David Mason** » 19 Nov 2010 10:27 am

About forty years of practice is sure to help, too.

Marc Jenkins · Post by **Marc Jenkins** » 19 Nov 2010 10:53 am

The most important thing about Ben's playing, in my opinion, was his touch and simplicity. He used basically 2 pedals and 1 lever on his Emmons S10 through a Fender tube amp. I play a single neck Sho-Bud through a Fender-style amp, and get close enough, tonally. The rest is in the touch. Good luck!

Ben Jones · Post by **Ben Jones** » 19 Nov 2010 11:19 am

Marc Jenkins wrote: He used basically 2 pedals and 1 lever on his Emmons S10 through a Fender tube amp.

used some BC pedal stuff too didnt he? "Albequerque" sounds like BC pedals up high to me.

Brett Lanier · Post by **Brett Lanier** » 19 Nov 2010 2:32 pm

Tube amps with enough power and reliability to play gigs on pedal steel with usually are not cheap. However, if you look around a little, you could probably find a deal on a SF twin reverb then load it with a 15" SICA speaker to lighten the load considerably. Until you start playing gigs, any small fender tube amp would have a tone you'll like for the living room or even backing up a solo act. On the subject of guitars (ime), the heavier one's (d10's, p/p's) sound better. I think I even recognize an improvement in tone on my guitar when I add more hardware (rods & knee levers) to it. I think the best live steel guitar tone I've heard came from a guy playing a beat up wood neck MSA D10 straight into a SF Twin reverb. He actually reminded me of Ben Keith a lot, played very simply but musically, in tune and with great tone.

Don Drummer · Post by **Don Drummer** » 19 Nov 2010 3:23 pm

Ben Keith's sound came from the creative use of small phrases that you have shown to have digested quite well. Get a Stage One. Don D

Marc Jenkins · Post by **Marc Jenkins** » 19 Nov 2010 3:48 pm

Ben Jones wrote:
Marc Jenkins wrote: He used basically 2 pedals and 1 lever on his Emmons S10 through a Fender tube amp.
used some BC pedal stuff too didnt he? "Albequerque" sounds like BC pedals up high to me.

Yes, Ben, I think you're right. Favorite,

Dave Grafe · Post by **Dave Grafe** » 19 Nov 2010 3:48 pm

On the subject of guitars (ime), the heavier one's (d10's, p/p's) sound better.

Professional audio folk all know that the best sounding gear is always the heaviest....

Ben Jones · Post by **Ben Jones** » 19 Nov 2010 5:33 pm

Marc Jenkins wrote:
Ben Jones wrote:
Marc Jenkins wrote: He used basically 2 pedals and 1 lever on his Emmons S10 through a Fender tube amp.
used some BC pedal stuff too didnt he? "Albequerque" sounds like BC pedals up high to me.
Yes, Ben, I think you're right. Favorite,

a favorite of mine too, I am still puzzled by some of it...someone should tab that one for us

I notice his tone is great on the live albums too. Time Fades Away..he slays on that album.

Robby Osenton · Post by **Robby Osenton** » 19 Nov 2010 7:29 pm

Thanks for all the advice and compliments!

1st, ive played guitar for 15 years, and am a gear nut, so I have a selection of amps. Ive been putting the steel through my only reverb equipped amp, which is A peavey transtube 212. A twin will be purchased in my near future, and since I can work on amps I am looking for one that needs some TLC. The peavey will work until I find a good deal on a twin though. I have enjoyed putting the sho-bud through a small tweed copy I made for a more raunchy kind of sound.

I have worked out a lot of the parts on Tonight's the Night and Time Fades Away, so maybe I should try my hand at some tabbing. I think I will have to keep practicing for awhile, but if no one else has done it maybe I will have to be the guy! Albuquerque is such a masterpiece...

It seems like the older steels were more "zingy" sounding. Was this more from tube amps, or the old pickups? From my experience, limited to looking on you tube and trying to figure out what people are playing on TV, etc It seems that the modern steel sound is a lot more neutral or transparent sounding, and the old sounds had more bite and kick to them.

I have read a lot of good things about those Stage ones, and the Carter Pros look good too, but being such a gear head, I can't help but think I would lust after a vintage model if I bought a newer one...

Chris Grotewohl · Post by **Chris Grotewohl** » 19 Nov 2010 8:31 pm

Hey man, be cool on this. Reverb will knock the wind out of the sails on the PSG. Practice clean, tab is great, but with youtube etc... learn the emotion..Delay is nice, HOWEVER, I agree with you, it is hard to get the old sound out of my NV 112 with me also. cg

Dave Grafe · Post by **Dave Grafe** » 19 Nov 2010 10:20 pm

If you want that "old" sound there is nothing quite like that honkin' big single-coil ShoBud pickup, and that nice purty wood is always nice to look at....

Danny Bates · Post by **Danny Bates** » 20 Nov 2010 6:40 am

Live clip of Ben with Neil... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wA5gkwLeHfU&NR=1

Ben only is seen in the last frames of the clip.

David Mason · Post by **David Mason** » 20 Nov 2010 3:06 pm

The biggest differences between old and new - the "zing" - are that modern PSG pickups are very powerful, up to twice as much output as the older stuff. It's the same with electric guitars. The other big difference, as has been hit upon, is that the old recordings used tube amps. So it's a low-powered pickup into a breathing* tube amp, vs. a high-powered pickup into a fairly sterile SS amp.

A lot of it come in the arrangements, too. In modern recordings, there are often three or more rhythm guitar tracks alone, acoustic, clean electric and a crunch electric. The older arrangements were much more spacious, and the steel guitar stood out more. If you give a producer 24 tracks, he'll fill 'em up. And modern Pro Tools offers him 256 tracks? Gaaah...

Not to mention that solos are a thing of the past. They'd rather give you a half bar each of steel, tele, fiddle, harmonica and dobro than let a single person play an actual solo. Even if you were zingin' out the wazoo, it'd go by too fast to notice.

*(A "breathing" amp is three steps before "howling" but two steps after "on".)

admin · Post by **b0b** » 20 Nov 2010 3:26 pm

I think that one of the things that set Ben Keith apart on early Neil Young records was that it didn't sound like a Sho-Bud. At the time, most of the records out of Nashville featured Lloyd Green or Pete Drake on Sho-Bud guitars. There was lots of midrange in the steel.

The Emmons push-pull guitars added a more modern, hi-fidelity dimension to the pedal steel sound. That's what I hear in Ben's playing. I have an Emmons LeGrand II (all-pull) that comes pretty close, and I've heard similar sounds from Mullen and Carter pro guitars.

Original Emmons push-pulls aren't hard to find, but they're expensive and they can be tricky to work on if something goes wrong, or if the previous owner messed it up.

Dan Lebowitz · Post by **Dan Lebowitz** » 20 Nov 2010 6:13 pm

I watched Ben Keith from the side-stage at the Hardly Strictly Bluegrass festival a couple of years ago. His steel indeed had 3 pedals and one lever. His amp was a fender siverface deluxe reverb. Perhaps the most intriguing thing was his chair - a short beat up old metal folding chair!

Robby Osenton · Post by **Robby Osenton** » 20 Nov 2010 7:43 pm

I've been doing a little research on pickups. Does the George L E66 pickup capture that vintage steel vibe? I am wondering if I put this in a modern guitar if I could get most of the sound...

admin · Post by **b0b** » 20 Nov 2010 10:27 pm

The TrueTone single coil pickup probably does the best job of replicating that old tone. I have a TrueTone in my Desert Rose S-8 and I'm very happy with it. You can hear it at http://soundcloud.com/b0b/sets/wine-country-swing.

Modern guitars are not created equal. How a pickup sounds in a guitar depends to some degree on how the guitar itself resonates. I have heard an E66 sound rich in some guitars and tinny in others. I didn't like it at all in my Sierra, but that guitar sounded great with a George L 12-1 or a Bill Lawrence 712.

What "vintage steel vibe" sound are you looking for? What don't you like about the "modern" steel guitar sounds?

Ned McIntosh · Post by **Ned McIntosh** » 21 Nov 2010 6:45 am

I second the Carter S10 or Stage One options. Both are lightweight, superbly engineered and a basic 3X4 copedent has enough potential in it to keep you absorbed for about the next three decades.

As for getting Ben Keith's tone, listen very closely to his playing. It is about as simple as it gets, but what makes it stand out for me is the placement of notes, the sheer economy of picking, and the way he comes in and out of the music precisely where it has the most favourable effect. He was never all over the music, he just came in where he was needed and knew when to get out of the way.

Precision, placement of note, choice of note, method of bending the note, volume-pedal use and timing are the hallmarks of the Ben Keith sound. So much of his playing also seems to be single-string work. Most of us neglect single-string stuff because we have so many strings and grips to choose from. Perhaps single-string is just "too simple" for most of us.

Steel players tend to play dyads (two-string riffs) or triads, both of which give that unmistakable steel-guitar tone. Ben used the single-note riff to amazing effect.

I believe he is perhaps one of the most under-appreciated steel players of the era. Although his tone and sound is totally different, in my opinion he ranks with John Hughey for sheer uniqueness of his unmistakable sound.