Notes returning # after lowering?

David Hartley · Post by **David Hartley** » 3 Oct 2009 3:48 am

Why do notes always return sharp after they have been lowered.? I have noticed this on all steel guitars?

David

Zach Keele · Post by **Zach Keele** » 3 Oct 2009 5:20 am

Is that the case on all guitars??? I've noticed that mine has recently starting returning quite a bit sharp on the E's, but I think mine has a compensator that needs adjusting. I'm just a little afraid to start turning them. It may have always returned a hair sharp though. I just never noticed it until it became a problem.

David Hartley · Post by **David Hartley** » 3 Oct 2009 5:33 am

I have always noticed it. Its nothing to worry about as it can barely be heard by ear but stick a peterson tuner on it and it looks as if they come back sharp by a mile! I am sure there will be some interesting and helpful replies here for us.

David

Gary Cosden · Post by **Gary Cosden** » 3 Oct 2009 6:25 am

I have owned 2 PP Emmons and a Sierra and all have done this to more or less the same extent. I think it was Paul Redmond that had a really good post or response on this phenomenon but I am not quite sure. It seems to me, If I remember correctly, that guitars with a changer at either end that raise form one and lower from the other were not supposed to exhibit this trait and it has something to do with the tolerances between the changer finger and axle on a conventional setup with a changer at the "bridge" end. Anyone else remember this?

Jack Stoner · Post by **Jack Stoner** » 3 Oct 2009 7:17 am

That is called "Hysterisis". Keyed guitars do this, some more than others. My 71 PP Emmons did this and it drove me crazy, especially on the Low C string on the C6th neck.

My Franklin has tuneable drop return compensators on the strings that are both raised and lowered that eliminates this (and one of the main reasons I bought it).

There are many forum threads about this.

Gary Cosden · Post by **Gary Cosden** » 3 Oct 2009 8:13 am

Jack - my keyless Session Sierra does this about the same as my PP Emmons did. The string in question, of course, comes right back to pitch with the first raise or even just playing the open string a few times. By the way I think I found the post by Paul Redmond I refereed to earlier - scroll down.
http://bb.steelguitarforum.com/viewtopi ... t=#1375114

John Billings · Post by **John Billings** » 3 Oct 2009 8:39 am

Not a problem on my Kline. Happens on my older ShoBuds though.

chris ivey · Post by **chris ivey** » 3 Oct 2009 11:23 am

i've noticed that the older i get and the worse my hearing gets the better my tuning sounds, the less i have to even tune up..except in extreme cases, and the happier i am. i rarely use my tuner except to check basic pitch occasionally. i used to have my tuner in line and monitor it constantly...but i don't seem to be any more in or out of tune now and no one has complained in the last ten years.

my 82 zum does have a feature in the changer that balances each finger that raises and lowers and keeps this hysterical problem to a minimum.

i do feel that (within reason) the more closely you scrutinize and nitpick your tuning and tone, the more uncomfortable
you will become and your playing will suffer, not to mention your attitude.

Donny Hinson · Post by **Donny Hinson** » 3 Oct 2009 2:25 pm

The part of the string between the tuning key and the nut doesn't lose tension equally compared to the part of the string between the nut and the changer (due to friction at the roller). When the lower is complete and the string is pulled back up to tension by the lowering spring (on the changer), the part of the string behind the nut is slightly tighter, so the string gets pulled back slightly more from that end. The result is a string pulled slightly-sharp after a lowering. This problem can be minimized by keeping the string straight and keeping the roller lubricated, and it's usually small enough that it's nothing to worry about. Many "problems" revealed by digital tuners aren't really problems at all because they're too small and insignificant to affect the playing of the instrument.

Here's another example of a digital tuner magnifying a "problem": If you hold a straight guitar by the body and point the neck straight up while tuning, you'll notice that string goes sharp when you turn the guitar 90 degrees, so the neck is parallel with the ground! Yes, the angle a straight guitar is held in affects the open tuning - but not enough to really worry about.

Some digital tuners are so sensitive, you can actually see the change in pitch of a guitar string if you breathe on it!

Stu Schulman · Post by **Stu Schulman** » 3 Oct 2009 2:47 pm

Could someone post a pic of a compensator and explain how it works?Stu

Don Brown, Sr. · Post by **Don Brown, Sr.** » 3 Oct 2009 2:58 pm

Make sure the axle shaft for the roller nuts, are clean and well lubed and (as Donny said) putting a drop of oil over the string and roller nut, wiping the excess off.

When a string is lowered, it vibrates itself back into tune. If it meets resistance from the roller, it can't get back to where it belongs, thereby holding it a tad bit higher in pitch.

Actually, when using "the Ball Ends From Strings as Rollers" on my GES, I never experienced that problem. Sho-Bud also used them for rollers at one time. The good thing was, at each string change, I always had a fresh supple of roller nuts...

Hope you find the above helps.......

Colin Mclean · Post by **Colin Mclean** » 3 Oct 2009 4:18 pm

My Carter Starter does this on the Eb string after lowering. I just lower it once real quick before tuning it @ the headstock, after that it seems to be consistent.

I always keep the nut on my 6 string guitars lubed with graphite but have never tried it on psg. Maybe it would work better. Food for thought...

John Bechtel · Post by **John Bechtel** » 3 Oct 2009 7:06 pm

here is no sharp-problem with my Derby PSG. The whole sharp-problem on most PSG's is only on certain strings. Mainly the (E)-strings.

Zach Keele · Post by **Zach Keele** » 3 Oct 2009 8:52 pm

I'm with Stu. Tell us how this works. The only way I know what they are is because they are painted black on the end. The guy who built the guitar basically told me not to touch them if I didn't understand how it worked, so I havn't. I know mine needs some adjustment. 10 cents sharp after the E's have been lowered. Very aggravating to my ears...

Don Brown, Sr. · Post by **Don Brown, Sr.** » 3 Oct 2009 9:07 pm

A compensator, won't correct a return problem. But here is what it will do..

click here

Hope this helps.....Don

John Bechtel · Post by **John Bechtel** » 3 Oct 2009 11:01 pm

I say Dag Wolf is correct about Paul Franklin Sr.'s connection with Compensators! I had compensators on every string that both raised and lowered on all three of my Franklin PSG's and to this day when it comes to tuning the E9-string #7, I tune 438Hz Open. [between pitches for str. #5 (B) & (C#)]. I think this is part of the beauty of the E9-sound! Then,I have an extra pull-rod on my E's to Eb's to nudge #7 up to 440Hz to get a perfect B6-Chord. Again, as I mentioned in another Post, with my Derby PSG, coming back sharp, after a lower has never been noticed. According to Charles Stepp, this problem does not exist with Derby Guitars. I think he told me it had something to do with the design of the changer's neutral-position.

Jack Stoner · Post by **Jack Stoner** » 4 Oct 2009 2:12 am

Everyone has their theory about hysterisis and what causes it or fixes it. Sort of like the "cabinet drop" which has many theories. Winnie Winston wrote an article in the PSGA Newsletter one time (around 1980/81) with his findings on how much "cabinet drop" each steel had from his measurements of each guitar at the ISGC.

I know I heard the hysterisis on the 71 PP Emmons that I had (and it was in tip top shape) and I don't with my 81 Franklin. The "drop return compensators" are a second "pull rod" connected to a lowering hole on the changer and to a fixed (non moveable) finger on a cross rod. There is a small rubber O ring between the nylong tuning "nut" and the lowering "puller" (the O ring must be there - I don't know why but it must be there and on my C6th 10th string it has to have two O rings). I've found that they rarely need readjusting after they are first set properly.

I don't know who designed the drop return compensator, Ron Lashley claimed he did but the Franklin that I saw at the 1980 ISGC was the first "production" model that I saw with them.

Ray McCarthy · Post by **Ray McCarthy** » 4 Oct 2009 3:46 am

I've never had the problem of of a lowered string returning sharp on my Derby, at least not that I can hear. I don't use a tuner--I tune the fourth string with a pitch pipe & the rest by ear. I can't help but wonder if anyone had this problem before the age of the e-tuner

Gary Cosden · Post by **Gary Cosden** » 4 Oct 2009 5:14 am

Seems to me there are only two theories in play here. One that Donny Hinson put forth in his post concerning the nut end and the other from Paul Redmond concerning tolerances in the changer. While it is true that I never noticed this phenomenon until I bought my first Korg Tuner back in the late '70s once I realized it was happening I wanted to know why. My own experience with 2 PP Emmons and 1 keyless Sierra all doing it to more or less the same extent leaves me still wondering but leaning somewhat towards the changer end as the probable culprit. I never have and never will lose any sleep over this issue but I have always been interested in the "nuts and bolts" aspect of our instrument and want to know more.

Franklin · Post by **Franklin** » 4 Oct 2009 7:39 am

Dad put them on my first Franklin steel back in the 60's Dad was the first to discover this resolve. He put them on my 72 MSA, both of my Sho-Buds, my PP and all of my Franklins which started in the 70's. Most companies made them available in the 80's. They work.

Zach,

Back the compensator all the way back. (several turns)
Tune the string open first, now tune the raise and release it. Make sure both steps are working fine...Now tune the lower and release it. It should sound sharp on the release. Now go back to the nylon compensator and rotate it forward slowly with the lower pedal or lever activated. Its a turn it, release it process. When it starts to get close to returning perfect you start nudging it forward until it returns perfect.

Paul

Jim Palenscar · Post by **Jim Palenscar** » 4 Oct 2009 8:15 am

It is my opinion that Donny Hinson's reply hit the nail on the head as far as what causes the phenomenon of hysteresis to occur on the pedal steel. In the guitars that Frank Carter is now building (The Infinity) preliminary results indicate that using a thinner roller axle (.0625") seems to lessen the effect (possibly by lessening the area of contact/friction between the roller and the axle?). Also- it is fairly common knowledge that keyless guitars such as the Kline, Anapeg, etc. have very little hysteresis which is predictable if one accepts the premise that the distance between the roller and the termination point (tuning key) is a factor.

Zach Keele · Post by **Zach Keele** » 4 Oct 2009 1:06 pm

Thanks for explaining how to use it. I'll fix it sometime today.

Edit
Problem solved. Thank you Mr. Franklin.
Zach

Earnest Bovine · Post by **Earnest Bovine** » 4 Oct 2009 1:08 pm

Jack Stoner wrote:There is a small rubber O ring between the nylong tuning "nut" and the lowering "puller" (the O ring must be there - I don't know why but it must be there and on my C6th 10th string it has to have two O rings).

Without the O-ring, the device would be just another rigid stop for the returning raise bar or lower bar. The O-ring gives it some elasticity so that initially it doesn't return all the way, and thus eliminates the over-return. After some time, the O-ring gives a little, and the nut roller rolls a little; ideally these happen at the same rate.

Brint Hannay · Post by **Brint Hannay** » 5 Oct 2009 11:06 am

Gary Cosden wrote:Seems to me there are only two theories in play here. One that Donny Hinson put forth in his post concerning the nut end and the other from Paul Redmond concerning tolerances in the changer. While it is true that I never noticed this phenomenon until I bought my first Korg Tuner back in the late '70s once I realized it was happening I wanted to know why. My own experience with 2 PP Emmons and 1 keyless Sierra all doing it to more or less the same extent leaves me still wondering but leaning somewhat towards the changer end as the probable culprit. I never have and never will lose any sleep over this issue but I have always been interested in the "nuts and bolts" aspect of our instrument and want to know more.

Gary, my experience with several Sho-Buds, a Mullen, a Williams (keyed), and a GFI keyless is similar to yours. In fact, the '73 LDG, with the longest keyhead of all, has the least over-return. A couple of the other keyed guitars have less over-return (a more accurately descriptive term than "hysteresis") than the GFI keyless. This, to me, calls into question "the premise that the distance between the roller and the termination point (tuning key) is a factor." (Jim Palenscar's wording)

(In context, I'm assuming that Jim's premise is that shorter distance means less over-return.)

Jim refers to the "roller"--Technically, the GFI doesn't have a "roller" (I don't know about the Sierra), but I don't know whether that's a significant distinction for purposes of the "distance above the nut" question.

Jim Palenscar · Post by **Jim Palenscar** » 5 Oct 2009 12:12 pm

There are obviously exceptions to every "rule". It has been my experience that, in general, keyless guitars have less hysteresis/over return, etc. than do keyed guitars. None of it really bothers me as most of my playing is live. I would probably be bothered if I recorded a bunch and would then take steps to fix it.

The Steel Guitar Forum

Notes returning # after lowering?

Notes returning # after lowering?

Hi Zach