Steel TONE. Is it from pickups or wood or?

Brian Tong · Post by **Brian Tong** » 20 Jul 2008 7:31 pm

I'm new to pedal steel and was wondering how the different steels get such unique and consistent tones per builder. I play guitar and understand that wood and pickups have a huge impact but it seems like a steel guitar has so 'few' points in which it is contacting any wood (like on an acoustic) than even an electric guitar.

We all know that pickups can be a huge different to certain electric guitars, and I've changed a few in my time and each could seriously effect the tone of the guitar but you could still 'hear' the wood. Having only owned one pedal steel (a 1976 MSA SD-10), I was just wondering cause it looks like the metal frame is what most of the components are attached to.

Sorry for such a rudimentary question...I'm sure it's obvious to all of you. Like an acoustic guitar, I can tell from the shape, size, wood combinations and luthiers what the guitar would probably sound like...is it the same with pedal steels. The converse of that question is if you took a pickup from an Emmons and put it in a Shobud, would the Shobud sound like an the Emmons?

Thanks in advance.

Jim Cohen · Post by **Jim Cohen** » 20 Jul 2008 8:04 pm

Brian Tong wrote:Sorry for such a rudimentary question...I'm sure it's obvious to all of you...

Brian,
No need to apologize, especially since your question is most decidedly not 'such a rudimentary' one. In fact, it has generated more debate here in the Forum than almost any other subject!

Which also means, of course, that you'll get a zillion different opinions on the answer to your question and, in the end, you won't know whom to believe. When that happens you'll be all caught up with the rest of us and won't feel like such a newbie anymore.

p.s. you could searh on the word 'tone' and probably come up with a few dozen previous threads on this subject.

Richard Damron · Post by **Richard Damron** » 21 Jul 2008 8:29 am

Jimbeaux - Best answer yet!

Brian - I and others have posted the truism that no one really knows as the research has not, as yet, been done. Do as Jim Cohen suggests regarding a search here on the forum and you'll have as much information as is available.

Respectfully,

Richard

Dick Wood · Post by **Dick Wood** » 21 Jul 2008 10:02 am

Tone is the moment and is perceived differently by each listener in relation to their relative position to the instrument and can be affected by temperature,humidity,room size,whether people like you and a host of other variables not in the control of the player.

In other words,and you can quote me "Tone is in the ear of the beerholder"

Proud graduate of Hankey High

Ken Byng · Post by **Ken Byng** » 21 Jul 2008 11:26 am

Brian Tong wrote: The converse of that question is if you took a pickup from an Emmons and put it in a Shobud, would the Shobud sound like an the Emmons?

Thanks in advance.

The simple answer is no. Very much in the same sense that if you put a Telecaster pickup in a Les Paul would it sound like a Telecaster. No again.

Larry Scott · Post by **Larry Scott** » 21 Jul 2008 12:46 pm

There are just three things and I dont have them
but he does------------>http://youtube.com/watch?v=6Zvdx7aOocU

Brian Tong · Post by **Brian Tong** » 21 Jul 2008 2:05 pm

Thanks guys....

Indeed beauty and value is in eye of the beholder. It would be nice however to be able to anticipate what characteristics are in the componentry so that you could experiment with parts so to not have to make a $2500 mistake. Unlike going to your local Guitar Center and being able to try out a guitar, I don't have a place where steels can be readily compared when trying to assess one that I'm seeing on this Forum.

So much it if 'bone' tone. Like watching Bobbe Seymour play all those different steels on You Tube...still sounds like him.

Guess I gotta break the news to the wife that I need more to know for sure which one I really like.

Roger Kelly · Post by **Roger Kelly** » 21 Jul 2008 2:36 pm

The converse of that question is if you took a pickup from an Emmons and put it in a Shobud, would the Shobud sound like an the Emmons?

Not in my opinion it wouldn't....any more than putting a Sho-Bud pickup in an Emmons Steel and expecting it to sound like a Sho-Bud.

I think what it boils down to is, if you buy most any well built modern day Pedal Steel, like an Emmons, Carter, Mullen, Sho-Bud, GFI, to name a few, and a good Steel Amp such as a Nashville 1000, 112, Steel King, Webb, or Evans you shouldn't have ANY trouble sounding like YOU. If and when you get some practice time under your belt, you will better understand what most everyone on here already knows...you will begin to develope how YOU sound...trying to sound like Lloyd Green or Buddy Emmons or who ever. Emmons sounds like Emmons to me no matter what guitar he plays or Amp he uses...and I believe,so will you.

Donny Hinson · Post by **Donny Hinson** » 21 Jul 2008 4:31 pm

We all know that pickups can be a huge different to certain electric guitars, and I've changed a few in my time and each could seriously effect the tone of the guitar but you could still 'hear' the wood.

It's my belief that pedal steels are far more alike than straight guitars. If you look at them, it's easy to see why. Pedal steels are all basically the same shape and size. They all have one pickup, mounted quite close to the bridge. They all are quite heavy compared to a straight guitar. Lastly, all steel manufacturers are actually trying to sound the same!

Of course, straight guitars are vastly different. They have different body types, shapes, styles, sizes, materials, and weights. They have 2, 3 or even 4 pickups, and straight players actually like their guitars to sound different!

All that makes me think straight guitars and their players are really completely different animals. Sound wise, steelers are quite narrow minded compared to straight guitar players. Straight players will often use many guitars, tones, and effects in a single night, whereas most steelers will spend their lives seeking and using only one sound or tone.

Richard Damron · Post by **Richard Damron** » 21 Jul 2008 4:55 pm

It continues in spite of the dearth of relevant fact. Here we go again - for the umpteenth - but certainly not the last, time. Beats all.

Jim Cohen · Post by **Jim Cohen** » 21 Jul 2008 5:09 pm

See? I told you so...

Ronnie Boettcher · Post by **Ronnie Boettcher** » 22 Jul 2008 8:48 am

My 2 cents. Get a good quality built PSG, and a AMP that has extra tinker toys in it, to create different sounds. After you try 100 of the combinations, of sounds, use the ones you like to hear. Your amp will change more sounds than a bunch of PSG's. All trial and error.

Brian Tong · Post by **Brian Tong** » 22 Jul 2008 11:26 am

Sorry...Richard for bringing it up again.

Then it begs the question, why are certain PSG so coveted? And why hasn't others 'knocked them off'? like Telecasters made by 30 manufacturers that look and sound very similar?

And why are newer ones so expensive...? Makes sense that since they are milling their own unique parts, you are essentially getting custom guitars...but $6500 for a new Mullen or MSA...and if the all 'sound' the same, is it just brand name appeal?

As a new player, I want FUNCTION and TONE. But function, meaning that it is easy to play, makes me enjoy the guitar more as my playing is evolving. As a guitar collector I also want 'value' so I can go through a bunch and decide. The hard part is that I might sell the one that actually sounds best of the bunch...hence the need for more money and a more patient wife.

Thanks again.

Jim Kennedy · Post by **Jim Kennedy** » 22 Jul 2008 12:01 pm

Tom, If you are in the Bay Area, google Tom Bradshaw and check out his website. He is in Concord. Email or call him. He does not update hisn for sale items often, but usually has a couple guitars around. I am pretty sure he will let you try them out and help you get what is best for you.

If you are in the LA area there is a psg store down thee that I have read about here on the forum. I am sure other forum members can help you out with the name and location.

Jim Kennedy · Post by **Jim Kennedy** » 22 Jul 2008 12:02 pm

Last post is for Brian. Sorry about the mix up.

Jim Kennedy · Post by **Jim Kennedy** » 22 Jul 2008 12:05 pm

Tom, If you are in the Bay Area, google Tom Bradshaw and check out his website. He is in Concord. Email or call him. He does not update hisn for sale items often, but usually has a couple guitars around. I am pretty sure he will let you try them out and help you get what is best for you.

If you are in the LA area there is a psg store down thee that I have read about here on the forum. I am sure other forum members can help you out with the name and location.

Jim Kennedy · Post by **Jim Kennedy** » 22 Jul 2008 12:07 pm

Sorry about the double post. This message was meant for Brian. Sorry about the name mix up also.

Jim Sliff · Post by **Jim Sliff** » 22 Jul 2008 8:38 pm

Like watching Bobbe Seymour play all those different steels on You Tube...still sounds like him.

That's "style" - not "tone". His tone is quite different on each instrument...but he still sounds like Bobbe because of *how* he plays - not *what* he plays!

James Harrison · Post by **James Harrison** » 22 Jul 2008 11:20 pm

I think the tone of any Electric Instrument is a product of the Pickup, the Amp, and the Effect boxes you have. Smoothness and Technic of playing is what comes from the player and if you don't have the same talent as the other player, you will not sound the same. If you are playing Accoustic, that is a little different, but not much.
Remember, it is not what you don't know that is bad, it is what you do know that is not right, that is bad.
James

Bill Hatcher · Post by **Bill Hatcher** » 23 Jul 2008 4:16 am

Brian Tong wrote:I'm new to pedal steel and was wondering how the different steels get such unique and consistent tones per builder. I play guitar and understand that wood and pickups have a huge impact but it seems like a steel guitar has so 'few' points in which it is contacting any wood (like on an acoustic) than even an electric guitar.

.

There are a lot of variables here. Different size mounting assembles, shaft sizes, cam sizes, different densities of top plate material, even down to the glue used for the mica application....all these can add or subtract from the tone of the guitar.

You can take 10 guitars made from solid wood by one builder and just the different densities of the top wood can give you a different sound from one to another.

It's a combination of everything that goes into the guitar. The pickup...it can sound different also. Just because it has one tone on a guitar...that tone does not transfer to another guitar totally. Only the part of the tone that is independant of the effects of the body will transfer from guitar to guitar.

Steve Feldman · Post by **Steve Feldman** » 23 Jul 2008 6:27 am

James Harrison wrote:I think the tone of any Electric Instrument is a product of the Pickup, the Amp, and the Effect boxes you have. Smoothness and Technic of playing is what comes from the player and if you don't have the same talent as the other player, you will not sound the same. If you are playing Accoustic, that is a little different, but not much.
Remember, it is not what you don't know that is bad, it is what you do know that is not right, that is bad.
James

Well, for guitars (e.g., 6-string), there is also neck and fingerboard wood (maple vs. rosewood), body wood (ash vs. alder), etc., etc., etc. And that's just for strats/teles. Perhaps less of an effect for steels, but what about e.g., aluminum vs. wood necks, or mica vs lacquer bodies. There's a lot to it beyond simple electronics, eh?

Jim Sliff · Post by **Jim Sliff** » 23 Jul 2008 7:09 pm

I think the tone of any Electric Instrument is a product of the Pickup, the Amp, and the Effect boxes you have

Nope.

As already mentioned, take a pair of Tele pickups, stick 'em on a Les Paul, and listen to what you get.

You get a Les Paul with a single coil bite.

A pair of PAF's on a Tele? It still sounds like a Tele, but with more mids and a bit more output.

Take any of those pickups and put them on a semi-hollow body (like a 335) and you'll get an entirely different sound.

Pickups will change the sound, but not turn one guitar into another.

And the effects and amp can only massage what you send to them...they don't change the inherent tone of the instrument.

Henry Nagle · Post by **Henry Nagle** » 23 Jul 2008 7:19 pm

Not quite on subject here, but I've heard guitarists say that putting active pickups in an electric guitar tends to take the guitar itself out of the tone equation a bit. That is, a Les Paul, a Tele, and a Strat might sound a lot more similar with active pickups than they might by just switching around passive pickups. I don't know if it's true or not. It seems quite plausible.

Not that that is a goal of mine, by the way. I'm very thankful that they all sound different and distinct.

I put Telecaster pickups in a Gibson Melodymaker once and it didn't sound like a tele. It actually sounded totally great in it's own way.

I have found that Stratocaster pickups will lend most any guitar a somewhat "stratish" tone. Like wise, a Stratocaster tends to lose much of it's distinctive character when humbuckers are installed.

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Steel TONE. Is it from pickups or wood or?

Steel TONE. Is it from pickups or wood or?

Re: Steel TONE. Is it from pickups or wood or?

Re: Steel TONE. Is it from pickups or wood or?

Thanks for the input - Bob...you can close this

Re: Steel TONE. Is it from pickups or wood or?