Volume Pedal question

Bill OCallaghan · Post by **Bill OCallaghan** » 13 Apr 2008 5:58 am

Hello folks, I am still a newbie on the PSG, I would like to know if there is any special about a volume pedal for PSG vs for guitar. I have been looking and see alot on ebay very inexpensive (ernie ball), but the ones that specifically mention PSG (goodrich) seem much more expensive. Is the a difference? something I should be looking out for?

Thanks!!
Bill

Jim Peters · Post by **Jim Peters** » 13 Apr 2008 6:12 am

Hi Bill,one thing to think about is the plug jacks being on the side of the pedal rather than the front, where they cords will interfere with the pedal bar. The pots are basically the same. A new Carter starter pedal is $100, and works just fine. JP

David Hartley · Post by **David Hartley** » 13 Apr 2008 6:26 am

You are a newbie to PSG so you must have just bought one I presume? This steel must have been a big outlay in the onset. In my very honest opinion, the pedal is the next thing you must INVEST in.. Ok yes, I have used GOODRICH for years and they are absolutely fine. I know you must have a budget, but if you can afford a GOODRICH, get one. BUT I must say though, it's not until you use a HILTON electronic pedal designed specifically for steel that you will realise how much you've been missing out on.. IMO, get out the barclaycard, sell something, beg, borrow, steel (sorry!) and buy a HILTON.. You really wont regret it..

DAVID HARTLEY

Larry Bell · Post by **Larry Bell** » 13 Apr 2008 6:44 am

I agree with everything said. I have two Hiltons and a Goodrich. Love 'em.

The point about the in's and out's coming out the front of the pedal is important. Another important consideration when comparing volume pedals designed for guitar vs those designed for steel is HOW they are used. A guitarist tends to 'set it and forget it'. The guitarist will boost volume for solos but will not stand there with his/her foot on the pedal. A steel player, on the other hand, puts A LOT MORE MILES on that pedal. It gets much more use in a 4 hour gig than a volume pedal used by a guitar player.

Pots have inherent characteristics that can create problems. They wear out -- obviously more rapidly the more often you move it. They get scratchy before they give out completely. They color the tone when the control is not 'wide open'. For those and other reasons, a potless pedal like the Hilton or Goodrich LDR is used by a lot of steel players, despite the higher price. There's nothing more frustrating than to have your volume pedal crap out on you in the last set of a club gig.

Get the best equipment you can afford. In many cases you get what you pay for. Good luck on your pedal steel quest. It can be a fun ride.

CrowBear Schmitt · Post by **CrowBear Schmitt** » 13 Apr 2008 6:47 am

volume pedals for psg are specific to the instrument Bill
an ernie ball vp has a 250k pot
(for single coil pick ups like fender teles & strats)
certain ernie ball vps have the input & output jacks on the front which does'nt make it suitable for a psg
it's like Jim P mentions
other vps that are specific to psgs have a 500k pot ( for double coils pick ups) & have 1 input jack & 2 output jacks on the side which are made for psgs
save up yer $$$ & get a goodrich120, or carter
you can also find a good used one here on the forum too

eventually, what you call a volume pedal Bill,will eventually become an "expression pedal"

Ken Metcalf · Post by **Ken Metcalf** » 13 Apr 2008 7:10 am

Test them if you can.
Hilton versus Ernie Ball is like night and day.
Many here including myself have an old vol. ped. that doesn't even get used for prac. and i thought the old vol. ped sounded ok until I used them side by side.
I have a friend that has a new Emmmons and an old funky Vol pedal he is always working on it and complaining about it.

Ken

Clyde Mattocks · Post by **Clyde Mattocks** » 13 Apr 2008 9:05 am

I went to do a recording session and found to my horror that I had left my expensive pedal home.
There was a cheap plastic volume pedal for an
electronic keyboard there that I commandeered. I
got thru the session fine with it. I think one of
the factors at play in price is the materials in the
housing more so than the electronics. The steel
guitar pedal suppliers make fewer and use heavier
stuff (cast aluminum in most cases) while the
suppliers for the other instruments mass produce them. I have an Ernic Ball that I use with lap steel and other intruments that work pretty well.

Donny Hinson · Post by **Donny Hinson** » 13 Apr 2008 10:00 am

Ok yes, I have used GOODRICH for years and they are absolutely fine.

If the pot's okay, that's probably all you need. Also, keep in mind that Goodrich also makes a powered pedal for those that don't prefer a (passive) "pot pedal". All pedals have their advantages and disadvantages, but it's true that most pedals made for steel guitar are far better quality than those made for straight guitar. From what I see and hear at steel shows and jams, there's very little difference in all of them, soundwise and tonewise. If powered pedals were better in all aspects, than that would be all you see the pros using.

So far, such is not the case.

Charles Davidson · Post by **Charles Davidson** » 13 Apr 2008 10:16 am

For a beginner that can't afford one of the expensive pedals[Hilton etc]A Morley Little gater will do the job,for about sixty bucks,[This is just my opinion]know some will disagree.I like the Goodrich pedals had two I used for years,the pots lasted for years,After seven or eight years had to replace the pots,the new pots did'nt last two weeks,Could'nt afford to spend around three hundred bucks for a high dollar pedal,also don't like to have to plug one in,Bought the Little Gator,it's adjustable and uses a nine volt battery that lasts for months,[NO POT],the only draw back it's a little wider than most pedals,but is real stable.For the money it's a bargain.DYKBC.

John Billings · Post by **John Billings** » 13 Apr 2008 11:33 am

I use Goodrich and Shobud pot pedals I wanted to try a friends Visual Sound pedal, but the jacks were in the front! Big problem? No! I just used cables with right-angle jacks. The VS pedal didn't sound bad. Gotz a bunch of lights that light up. It also has a jack for a tuner..

Brint Hannay · Post by **Brint Hannay** » 13 Apr 2008 2:30 pm

Another factor is the feel of the pedal. I have used Ernie Ball volume pedals for many years for guitar, and the ones I have are older, from when they had the jacks on the side, but I find that they have a stiffer feel, probably because, as mentioned, guitar players most often set it and leave it. Even pot pedals designed for steel guitar use have a freer-floating feel, which lends itself much better to expressive use, IMHO.

Jeremy Threlfall · Post by **Jeremy Threlfall** » 13 Apr 2008 2:50 pm

My Ernie Ball pedal works fine

Some people prefer the old pot pedals because they DO colour the sound the more they are closed off

the classic pedal steel cuts from the 50s and 60s would have been made with pot pedals, I suppose.

Lee Baucum · Post by **Lee Baucum** » 13 Apr 2008 2:55 pm

Here is some good reading.

CLICK HERE

Lee, from South Texas

Donny Hinson · Post by **Donny Hinson** » 13 Apr 2008 4:47 pm

We all have heard statements about the way that pots "steal highs", "color the sound", or "suck the tone".

I'd just like to remind everyone that pots are found not only in pedal steel volume pedals, but they're also found in straight guitars, lap and console steels, electric mandolins, and electric bass guitars.

Isn't it strange that players of those instruments never seem quite as concerned about the supposed bad effects of using a pot as avolume control? Oddly enough, some straight guitars even have two (pot) volume controls in them!!!

So...I guess they're...twice as sucky???

Twayn Williams · Post by **Twayn Williams** » 13 Apr 2008 4:47 pm

Charles Davidson wrote:For a beginner that can't afford one of the expensive pedals[Hilton etc]A Morley Little gater will do the job,for about sixty bucks,

If you're going the Morley route (and why not) go for the Power Wah/Volume instead as it has good buffer that the Gater doesn't for only a few bucks more. I'm actually using a Boss ME-20 and I really like the feel of the expression pedal, plus the effects are simple, straight forward and sound good.

Brint Hannay · Post by **Brint Hannay** » 13 Apr 2008 6:57 pm

Donny Hinson wrote:We all have heard statements about the way that pots "steal highs", "color the sound", or "suck the tone".

I'd just like to remind everyone that pots are found not only in pedal steel volume pedals, but they're also found in straight guitars, lap and console steels, electric mandolins, and electric bass guitars.

Isn't it strange that players of those instruments never seem quite as concerned about the supposed bad effects of using a pot as avolume control? Oddly enough, some straight guitars even have two (pot) volume controls in them!!!

So...I guess they're...twice as sucky???

How many bass players do you know that EVER turn their volume knobs down?:lol:

For that matter, how many "straight" guitar players? (Here, there are a few.)

Point 1: There is a reason some guitars (e.g. post-'67 Teles) have a capacitor across the volume pot (whether it's a good idea or not is a matter of opinion). Namely compensation for loss of highs as the knob is turned down.

Point 2: As has been mentioned already, there are some steel players who prefer pot pedals because of the way they change the sound as the volume is increased or decreased.

I know it's your mission to debunk commonly-held ideas, Donny, but it is an objective fact that an un-bypassed volume pot in line with a high-impedance pickup does roll off highs as it is turned down. Desirable? Undesirable? Neither? You decide!

Donny Hinson · Post by **Donny Hinson** » 14 Apr 2008 8:12 am

Desirable? Undesirable? Neither? You decide!

Precisely. I don't really care what anyone uses. What I do care about, however, are people who who claim you must have this or that piece of equipment to get a good sound. For those who use a pot pedal, the logical thing to do is to set your tone (at the amp) at the volume setting you're usually playing at. I repeat...set the tone where you play.

I don't know about everybody else, but when I back off on my volume pedal, what I lose most is volume!

Any tone change in a good (pot) volume pedal that's properly wired and used is pretty minimal, IMHO. And the idea, therefore, that some pedal or amp, or stomp-box will transform your sound from "average" to "exceptional" is not valid in all cases, nor is it valid for all players. That's all I'm trying to say.

There are those who profess you can "buy" your way to a good sound, and there are those who profess you might be better off learning to properly use what you already have, and maximize your technique, first!

I fully confess to being one of the latter.

Greg Cutshaw · Post by **Greg Cutshaw** » 14 Apr 2008 9:02 am

Will someone please go back and tell Ralph Mooney, Lloyd Green and Pete Drake etc. that their pot pedal sucked all the highs out of their recordings for over 3 decades both in a recording and a live setting. You can get all the highs out of any pot pedal you want with adjustments in cords and amp settings.

I use both the Hilton and the pot pedal and both work just fine. I'd give the pot pedal a little edge for the kind of tone I like best. Reliablilty is a toss up if your pot pedal has a good conductive plastic pot in it, it will likely run over 10 years with no problem and certainly will outlast even the old design Allen Bradley pots. The Hilton and the Goodrich pot pedals do produce different tones and dynamics so their signature sound is a little different. At the PSGA show I recently attended, there were lots of pros with awesome sound using pot pedals and no buffer amp. It just isn't needed to get a good sound. There were also pros there using the Hilton and getting awesome sound.

Either pedal will do a fine job. Try both and pick the one that gives you the tone you like best.

Greg

Brint Hannay · Post by **Brint Hannay** » 14 Apr 2008 9:47 am

I agree with you, Donny and Greg. The treble reduction with a pot pedal is slight, and is nothing that can't be more than compensated for by amp settings.

I slightly prefer the sound of a pot pedal myself. But I use a Hilton because of the problems with pot quality a few years back. I haven't yet experienced the new plastic resistance path pots.

Jim Peters · Post by **Jim Peters** » 14 Apr 2008 12:15 pm

I've had guitars with the cap on the pot mod, and hated the way the treble didn't roll off by lowering my volume. You can negate almost all of the tone changes on pedal steel very easily, by putting nearly any Boss or Ibanez pedal between your guitar and volume pedal. The buffer amp in the effect pedal negates any impedance problems. The 3 chord setup used with PV Nashville amps also eliminates most issues of tone degradation. I use an Ibanez delay right out of my steel,or the 3 cord method, or both. Not only is my tone consistent, the little bit of scratchy pot noise is almost completely eliminated. The buffered pedals also negate the tone loss caused by poor cables. Buying a buffered pedal is an inexpensive way to regulate your tone. JP

chris ivey · Post by **chris ivey** » 14 Apr 2008 12:20 pm

in the past, plug in volume pedals used to be way more bass-y and edgeless.....is the hilton better about that. i use a goodrich w/10k pot pedal...sounds fine and low impedance line level...

David Hartley · Post by **David Hartley** » 14 Apr 2008 1:13 pm

Dont you think though that if these Hiltons were available in them early days, the steel players you mentioned would be using them? ANSWER IS PROBABLY YES..

It is without a doubt an unbeatable unit IMO (as they say)..

You will never get the modern recordings like them old records again. I just love the way you can hear either Lloyd's or his drummers stool squeeking at the end of most of his instrumentals on the HITS album.. MONO TOO

And GREG, many thanks for the .xls file you sent me, it is VERY much appreciated and I will have a play around with it soon..

David Hartley

Bill OCallaghan · Post by **Bill OCallaghan** » 14 Apr 2008 7:18 pm

Wow, thanks for all the responses on this. I never cease to learn something here. I am glad I held off on an impulse to buy a used EB bol pedal and will take a little more time in making my decision.

thank you all for your insight, much appreciated.

Bill

Doug Seymour · Post by **Doug Seymour** » 15 Apr 2008 7:33 am

I don't believe anyone has mentioned the height of different pedals? That was always an issue for me. I always used the low models, your results may vary.

Gabriel Stutz · Post by **Gabriel Stutz** » 15 Apr 2008 2:41 pm

I will say that I prefer my Hilton tonally over any pot pedal I've played. I prefer the highs to stay basically the same throughout the travel.

In the end, the reason I didn't like the pot pedals wasn't so much the tonal change itself, but the inconsistency of the tonal change. As the pot wore out the amount of change went up and up until it became scratchy and needed to be replaced. So it bothered me that basically every time I used the pedal it sounded a little worse (to me) than the time before. I also got incredibly tired of changing pots.

The one thing more specific to the question that I've noticed is that the VPs made for guitar seem so have a longer throw than the ones for steel (in some active pedals, the throw is adjustable). I takes a lot more motion to go from full on to minimum volume. It was very uncomfortable for me when I was using a guitar volume pedal.

Gabriel