E s to Fs with first pedal on E9th neck

Keith Hilton · Post by **Keith Hilton** » 12 Dec 2007 5:09 pm

I noticed on the new Dwight Sings Buck CD, the steel player posted his first pedal raised his Es to Fs on the E9th tuning. This was really interesting to me, as I do this change with my left knee left. I use my left knee left with my first pedal, which raises my Bs to C#s. I have never seen a guitar that tunes out to my ear consistenly on the sets of strings when using my left knee left, Es to Fs, and my first pedal, Bs to C#s. There is just something about that combination that has never felt 100% perfect, tuning wise, on any guitar I have ever played. Maybe it is just a mental thing with me. I am wondering if the Es to Fs would feel better being on the 1st pedal, and have my second pedal be my Bs to C#s. This would certainly free up a knee lever, as I have been wanting another knee lever change, and did not want to increase the number of my knee levers from 5 knee levers to 6 on my E9th neck. Something else I noticed about Dwight's steel player's 5th pedal, it raised the 4th string E to F#.
I have always wanted that change, because there is so much of the Mooney suff you need that change on. I guess we are really talking about adding a 4th and 5th pedal to the E9th. Probably the guy who has come up with the most by adding a pedal to the E9th is Fred Justice. He has his copedent on his web site. Fred can get a bunch of good stuff a normal E9th can't with the little extra he has added to his E9th. Does anyone have an opinion about any of this? I also found it interesting that Dwight did not use Tom Brumley on his new CD, "Dwight Sings Buck", even though Tom played on several of the original cuts. Tom has done a wonderful job on past recordings of Dwight's. I thought the steel player did a inspiring job of Mooney picking on the faster songs. The slower songs were average and could have used Tom Brumley. Of course that is just my ear.

admin · Post by **b0b** » 12 Dec 2007 5:20 pm

I often slide from an A+B position to an A+F position. It would be hard to do that if the F change was on pedal one.

I don't see how moving the knee change to a pedal would tune it up any differently. I'd put it on P1 only if no knee lever was available (as on a stock Fender 400 or 1000).

Billy Wilson · Post by **Billy Wilson** » 12 Dec 2007 6:34 pm

I believe that album was recorded on a Fender steel. Which could explain why the pulls are where they are.

Duane Reese · Post by **Duane Reese** » 12 Dec 2007 7:03 pm

From what I understand, Josh Grange is the guy who bought Mark Fasbender's '68 Fender 2000, I guess for the very purpose of using it on the Buck Owens tribute album.

I remember when it was in Salt Lake, it had 10 pedals and 0 (zero) levers, so we came up with the idea of moving the E9 pedals over one, and putting the F-lever function on the now zero pedal, so it could be hit at the same time as the A-pedal if you wanted; also, the E-lever function was put on the 10-pedal so you could get off the volume pedal real quick and make that happen too.

I don't think this was ever supposed to be a permanent solution, but more of a thing to get by with in the mean time. Course, I'm sure Josh Grange has probably moved the copedent around however he wants, so I certainly can't say what it is now. That would be something else again if there was any aspect of that make-shift copendent that he found useful.

My hope is that Josh Grange chimes on this thread... Boy that sure was a good old guitar, that's for sure.

Rick Nicklas · Post by **Rick Nicklas** » 12 Dec 2007 7:37 pm

I'm with you Keith on the LKL raise with the A pedal. I have never played a guitar where it would lock in and feel good like pressing your A & B together. It always has an unfinished feel to me. I always find myself trying to adjust the bar or use a lot of vibrato to get through that particular pull.

Duane Reese · Post by **Duane Reese** » 12 Dec 2007 7:53 pm

Duane Reese wrote:Boy that sure was a good old guitar, that's for sure.

Duane, that was kind of redundant, wouldn't you say?

admin · Post by **b0b** » 12 Dec 2007 8:31 pm

Rick Nicklas wrote:I'm with you Keith on the LKL raise with the A pedal. I have never played a guitar where it would lock in and feel good like pressing your A & B together. It always has an unfinished feel to me. I always find myself trying to adjust the bar or use a lot of vibrato to get through that particular pull.

You have to aim sharp for the A+F position to sound in tune. The root of the chord is on the pedaled string (C#), which is typically tuned flat for the A+B pedal position. If you don't aim sharp of the fret, the major chord formed by A+F will sound flat.

Tony Glassman · Post by **Tony Glassman** » 12 Dec 2007 9:05 pm

You wouldn't be able to hit the augmented chords: A+B pedals + F knee lever.

Dean Parks · Post by **Dean Parks** » 12 Dec 2007 9:47 pm

Here's the thread where Joshua post his copedent.

http://bb.steelguitarforum.com/viewtopi ... 7&start=25

Fred Glave · Post by **Fred Glave** » 13 Dec 2007 9:17 am

I'd think that having the E to F on p1 would not be perfect, however, if you want that change, and you also want to keep your old Fender in original condition, I guess it would be a good way to do it. My old Fender 2000 was already changed quite a bit when I got it. It has 4 homemade knee levers, and the body itself isn't even original. I don't have to worry so much about messing around with a classic guitar. If you want the classic tone and sound of the old Fender, and also have the modern copedent too, you have to do something to modify it. As Tony indicated, there would still be some limitations.

Mike Perlowin · Post by **Mike Perlowin** » 13 Dec 2007 10:23 am

The E-F raise brings up the question of JI vs ET. When we tune to JI, the thirds of the chords, the unpedaled G# strings, and the C# notes made by pressing the A pedal, are tuned approximately 3 Hz flat. So to be consistent, the 3rd of the C# chord, which is formed by the E-F lever, should be approximately 6 Hz flat.

The problem is that when you do that, although the major chord may be perfectly in tune, everything else you do with that lever, the augmented and diminished chords, and any licks or scale passages, will be painfully out.

I deal with this by tuning the F note 3 Hz flat, just like the C# and G# notes. So my C# major chord is more or less tuned ET whole the others are tuned JI.

Not a perfect solution, but it seems to work OK.

Aaron Harms · Post by **Aaron Harms** » 13 Dec 2007 4:39 pm

I'm hoping one of the other more Fender-y fellas will post, but I've found there's a a bit of 2 footing going on under there, with no levers and all. Perhaps that is the way to solve some of the issues folks are bringing up? Again, this doesn't solve the issue as easily as perhaps a lever would...but some of us don't have those;)

Rick Nicklas · Post by **Rick Nicklas** » 13 Dec 2007 9:40 pm

b0b.... Thanks for that info. I am going to start trying that ASAP and see if I get better results. It's not really a problem if I use it as passing chords. It's just if I have to sustain a chord using the A and F that I start gritting me teeth.

John McClung · Post by **John McClung** » 13 Dec 2007 10:01 pm

I used to avoid the A+F major chords due to that slight sourness due to the G#'s being tuned flat in my tempered open tuning.

So now F lever also raises both G#'s just slightly, and the beat-free A+F chord finally sounds sweet enough to play. I don't understand how people play E9 without these compensators!

I think that sourness is what Keith Hilton may have been talking about, I avoided that position for years till I figured out the solution. Compensators rock!

Paul Redmond · Post by **Paul Redmond** » 16 Dec 2007 1:43 am

Al Petty had his so-called E changes on 'heel' pedals and his standard pulls on his 'toe' pedals. So the idea of adding the F change to a pedal is not new, and the logical place to put it would, indeed, be to the left of the B to C# pedal if you had them all racked up on the 'front row'. On a guitar with no knee levers, that would be the way to go for sure. With the heel/toe concept, it wouldn't matter a bit as you would have your cake and eat it too. I'll keep mine on a KL as I do use it for a lot of transitional chords, but the concept is very interesting to say the least. Back in 1980 or 1981, Sierra built a prototype 10-string E9 guitar with only 6 pedals and no KL's. It was blue and was on display at Scotty's at the old Chase-Park Plaza hotel. It drew a horde of comments as I recall. You could 'get it all' with your left foot!!!
PRR

Mike Perlowin · Post by **Mike Perlowin** » 16 Dec 2007 12:21 pm

Paul Redmond wrote:Al Petty had his so-called E changes on 'heel' pedals and his standard pulls on his 'toe' pedals. ... Back in 1980 or 1981, Sierra built a prototype 10-string E9 guitar with only 6 (toe and heel) pedals and no KL's.

Blackie Taylor had that guitar in his shop for a while. I tried to play it, but it was too weird and I couldn't get used to the heel pedals instead of knee levers.

Paul Redmond · Post by **Paul Redmond** » 17 Dec 2007 7:02 pm

The thing that I found a little strange about the heel/toe concept was having to lengthen the guitar's legs and the fact that your foot is actually suspended in mid-air all the time rather than being able to at least rest your heel on the floor. I guess it's all in what you get used to over time. Pipe organists do this all the time. I guess I'll stick with the 'floor' pedals and knee levers. The concept is interesting though and I sometimes wonder what pedal steel playing would be like had it been done that way from the get-go.
PRR

Brad Malone · Post by **Brad Malone** » 18 Dec 2007 7:52 pm

I use my left knee left with my first pedal, which raises my Bs to C#s. I have never seen a guitar that tunes out to my ear consistenly on the sets of strings when using my left knee left, Es to Fs, and my first pedal, Bs to C#s. There is just something about that combination that has never felt 100% perfect, tuning wise, on any guitar I have ever played. Maybe it is just a mental thing with me<<

Hey Keith, It is not just you, it is also me and anybody else that wants to tell the truth because I do not believe it can be done. I avoid using the F, C# and G# together but I do use the F & G# together and the C# & F together..However, the augmented A, F & C# seem to work .I ALSO TUNE MY THIRDS DOWN ABOUT 10 CENTS AND THE F DOWN ABOUT 16 CENTS...this is JMHO

Joshua Grange · Post by **Joshua Grange** » 18 Dec 2007 8:05 pm

Hi,
First of all thank you Keith for your kind words.
I too wish Brumley would have played on the record, that would have been a treat to meet him. I think Dwight wanted to use his band to record the album, just like Buck would have done.

The steel I used on the record was Mike Headrick's 800.
It had only one knee lever, which is why the "0" pedal was used for the E to F change.

On the more modern guitar I use, the Pro-1, I have the E to F on the LKL. b0b is correct, usually fretting sharp (slightly) will give you the A+F chord fairly in tune.
(Isn't that what vibrato is for?)

If the change were to be on the "0" pedal, I would miss the smooth A+B to A+F slide as b0b said, as well as the Aug A+B+F chord as Tony said, and what about the F+B Dom chord 3 frets below open position...
However, I found that I rarely used the volume pedal on the uptempo numbers I recorded on the Fender, so a little soft-shoe under the carriage seemed to work fine....

And I still have that '68 2000, in incredible shape, that I bought from Mark. Great guitar....

Paul Redmond · Post by **Paul Redmond** » 18 Dec 2007 8:28 pm

Brad - Try only detuning the G#'s 4 or 5 cents and cut that F pull detuning in half and you'd probably get closer to what you're looking for without that 'gnash' that seems to be inherent with the 'F change'.
PRR

Rick Nicklas · Post by **Rick Nicklas** » 18 Dec 2007 9:37 pm

Since this post started I ordered the Buddy Emmons Tuning by Chiming instruction and have almost eliminated the A and F combo detuning and also the seventh tone agravation against 5th and 6th string with A/B pedals engaged. All I tune up now is my E String to 442 and chime everything else to remove the beats and it is the best I have ever heard from my steel. Hope this might help someone else. It made a believer out of me. The only thing I might add is that someone posted a way to get the G#'s in tune is chime the 4th string on fret 4 and 3rd string on 5 to get that particular string in tune (you will figure it out!)

Brad Malone · Post by **Brad Malone** » 19 Dec 2007 8:30 am

Paul, I'll give it a try. Do you also only detune you Eb's only 5 cents?. This method of detuning 3rd's 8 to 10 cents works out pretty well for me. The exception is the F, which I detune around 14 to 16 cents.

Paul Redmond · Post by **Paul Redmond** » 21 Dec 2007 12:25 am

I usually tune 440 straight up, then de-tune the 3rd's until they don't gnash at me. Each and every guitar is different in this area, so a one-size-fits-all remedy is not the answer. The Whitney's don't de-tune at all and that in itself poses its own set of problems when looking for the 'non-gnash' tuning. I have found, though, over the years, that 'softening' up the 3rd's makes everything sound a bit sweeter. On the Whitney's, I only drop the 3rd's a few cents. On others, I do what's necessary to 'soften' them up as they are prone to more de-tuning than the Whitney's which have zero. Did I answer that correctly?
PRR

Jerry Hayes · Post by **Jerry Hayes** » 21 Dec 2007 10:04 am

At one point in my musical wheeling and dealing, I aquired a Fender 400 which had 4 floor pedals and no knee levers. It was set up with the standard E9th tuning without the 1st two "chromatic" strings. Pedal one raised the E's to F, pedal two raised the B's to C#, pedal three raised the G#'s to A, and pedal 4 lowered the E's to D# (Eb). I thought it was pretty versatile but I would have liked to have had a high E raise to F# for some Mooney stuff but I traded the steel for a nice Telecaster.

On my steel (BMI S-12, 8 & 5) I tune everything with a # or b to 438 and everything else to 440 except for the E to F changes which are to 438 also. This works very well in a band with multiple lead instruments and fairly well as the only lead....I used to use the Jeff Newman chart but in the open position I always sounded flat. I haven't tried his later thing of tuning the E's above 440 but I might at some point..........JH in Va.

Keith Hilton · Post by **Keith Hilton** » 21 Dec 2007 4:27 pm

Jerry, that arrangement on the 4 pedals of the Fender 400 is not a bad arrangement. Each of the outside pedals are near the pedals they need to be near, to operate with one foot. I have Joshua's CD in my car's CD player-"Dwight Sings Buck". It is presently my favorite CD. I like it better each time I listen to it. This CD has more steel guitar on it than any commercially produced CD I have heard in years. It is wonderful Dwight used his own band on this CD. I am burned out hearing the same old bands with different singers on the records out of Nashville. I wish the singer's band would play on the singer's record. If that happened I think we would hear a lot more variety. If you have not got the CD--- Dwight Sings Buck, go to Wal Mart and get one. It is a HOT CD. If you don't like "in your face" steel guitar, don't buy it. I love "in your face" steel guitar. My favorite song on the CD is the one where the bass kicks it off alone. This CD really inpires me.