RECORDING DETAILS FOR THE CLUELESS

Gary Lynch · Post by **Gary Lynch** » 28 Jul 2007 2:41 pm

I am interested in finally recording myself on lap steel and Spanish guitar. I started reading about all the difficulties some on the SGF members have trying to learn how to operate the equipment. It seemed like a crap shoot to me. If one does not know anything about recording, it is almost like learning an instrument for the first time.

Even when I search the web, there seems to be no complete info on all the items you would need to record simple tracks. Most assume you have basic knowledge.

I own a newer PC and it appears BIAB may work but then I see you need additional software and items like, "where the heck do you plug in your guitar? And so forth.

Can anyone point me to a web page or a item for sale that explains every detail of what you need and what is the most affordable equipment (user friendly) for simple recordings?

I notice on eBay many brand new recorders being offered because the buyer could figure out how to use it.

YIKES!!!

Dave Potter · Post by **Dave Potter** » 28 Jul 2007 5:30 pm

"Recording myself" to what, exactly? To what media? What format? Insufficient information.

Gary Lynch · Post by **Gary Lynch** » 28 Jul 2007 5:41 pm

"Recording myself" to what, exactly? To what media? What format? Insufficient information."

I have no information except what I posted. No clue what I need? Keep it simple. Probably computer to CD. I have five lap steels, one non pedal console and two Spanish guitars (one acoustic, one electric) That's it.

Papa Joe Pollick · Post by **Papa Joe Pollick** » 28 Jul 2007 8:08 pm

Gary,I've sent an E-Mail to you.

Gary Lynch · Post by **Gary Lynch** » 28 Jul 2007 8:17 pm

Thanks!

Tony Prior · Post by **Tony Prior** » 29 Jul 2007 1:36 am

Gary, to me it appears that you are saying that you have NO experience with a Tape recorder which basically is the " page 1 step 1 " part of the process.

The new small gadgets, digital 4 tracks and such, do all have a common characteristic, they have the basic requirement that the user has at least a minimal knowledge or perhaps some previous tape recorder experience.

There are basic generic books on the recording subject ( EBAY ) which talk at 10,000 feet rather than right in front of you. These books are very good at defining the different tasks at hand, EQ, effects, Mics etc...They will at least give you some definition of the elements of recording. And you are correct, it is a new language, and pretty much some of it must be learned.

Here are two titles that I keep around for reference..

Home Recording Made Easy, by Paul White ( small book)

The Musicians Guide to Home Recording , by Peter Mclan and Larry Wichman ( large book)

My recommendation, go to a local Guitar Center, speak with the rep about an entry level 4 tracker, find an employee in the store that is very familiar with them, PAY extra for a tutorial lesson.

Tell the rep SIMPLE SIMPLE SIMPLE...

each of these new units are filled with features that are menu driven, not hard to use but may seem confusing.

OR

there may even be a few Tascam 4 track cassette recorders still available which are very basic, no extra menus and such. These are very easy to learn to use, simple to operate.

the concept is exactly the same.

record on track 1, don't overload the signal

Play track 1 and record on track 2..don't overload the signal

play track 1 and 2, record on track 3 , don't overload the signal

Play tracks 1,2 and 3, record on track 4

Most of the issues that new users come across is that they are overwhelmed with the extra features and completely overlook the basics.Then they give up.Then they sell it.

A friend in town not long ago went to the Guitar Center and came home with over $3000 worth of stuff, he was going to record a full HOME GROWN CD. He had zero experience with recording.After about 3 or 4 trips back to the GC for assistance he threw in the towel and sold it all probably for half price.

Before he purchased the stuff I had recommended he purchase a small BOSS unit and get some exposure but he decided he needed top of the line right away. He was going right for the Hi Quality Home CD.

I think if you are willing to hang in there, get a small unit with minimal features , take your time and learn to use it in the most basic modes, you will be fine.

Boss and Fostex both make some very easy to use recorders, either the small digital 4 tracks or small 4 track cassettes. the Digital units will be more confusing because they will have more features and more menus.The Cassette units are very basic and have no frills. The Boss Micro BR , although very cool, small and cheap, is NOT easy to use out of the box, forget that one. It is completely menu driven with very small buttons and a very small display.

Forget the units that have CD's on board or PC connectivity for now. Go for the basics. Once you get the basics down you can always upgrade.

Think ONE track at a time. Keep recording on ONE track and playing it back. Do this over and over. DO NOT try to record a project the same day you bring the unit home.

Start simple, go slow.

Search the internet for basic recording techniques.

it's not difficult but it does require some new knowledge.

All of these units require that a Musician lives in TWO worlds at the same time, the Music world and the TECHNICAL world. It's up to the Musician half of the brain to merge them together, at the same time.

go for it I say...

tp

Gary Lynch · Post by **Gary Lynch** » 29 Jul 2007 7:35 am

Tony,

Thanks for the information. A musician spends half his life getting his chops together, then has to learn the recording side of life! That's like learning a brand new type of instrument you have never played before.

I agree, simple is better for now.

Alan Brookes · Post by **Alan Brookes** » 29 Jul 2007 3:30 pm

Tony:
Everything you say is right, but I have to sympathise with Gary. I started multiple-tracking using multiple reel-to-reel tape decks in the 1960s, and as Tascam/TEAC introduced the PortaStudio concept in the late 70s I bought several, plus the Reel-to-Reel 8-channel PortaStudio, the Tascam 388
Studio 8, of which I have two, which has been my favorite machine for many years.

In recent times I've bought a Yamaha MD-8 Data-MiniDisk recorder, and a Tascam Portastudio 2488, which has 24 channels hard-disk recording. But I still find myself using the 388 Reel-to-Reel, because the 2488 has too many options, and has an enormous learning curve, which you have to buy the instruction DVD to even begin to comprehend.

O for the good old days of pushing the record button and watching the reels go round. At least with reel-to-reel you almost never ended up with no recording, and you never suffered hard-disk crash. A tape can break, and you tape it back together, but if a digital recording gets corrupted you can lose hours of work.

Ron Randall · Post by **Ron Randall** » 29 Jul 2007 5:47 pm

FWIW

There came a point in time where I had to decide: was I trying to be proficient on steel guitars, or proficient in recording.

I have just enough stuff now to record my practices when I want to, and record a small band. I gave up the recording side of this deal. Musicician is where I want to be.
Ever notice that it really takes at least 2 to get good results? An engineer and a musician.

There are several books, friendly folks at Sweetwater.com.

To make an ok recording one will need a good dynamic mic or 2 or 3. A good preamp(s) separate from the computer, and a pair of active near-field monitors to mix and balance sounds that will be heard in a realistic world.

Tony Prior · Post by **Tony Prior** » 30 Jul 2007 3:16 am

I certainly agree with what Alan states above, but heres the deal..

yes too many options...24 tracks..etc...difficult manual..

that is all true...

If you have swept right over the basics of the machine then yes it will be difficult to use, maybe even impossible.

When I purchased my Yamaha AW2816 I was excited as all get go..until it arrived...and this coming from someone who has been fooling with recorders since the age of 12 or 13, I even figured out how to get my MONO tape recorder to overdub back then. My sister and I were singing harmonies and overdubbing on our mono tape recorder ! We rocked !

We look at things the way others want us to, we go by there way of thinking, many times that is a conflict. We read a manual that someone else perceived as being the correct approach. One shoe fits all. The manual is about the unit, not the user.

Kinda like Music lessons, if you have a teacher who is blind to your level and comprehension, you will fail at your Music lessons. If your teacher understands you and has the ability to modify the teaching format on the fly, you will succeed.

just like school, just like college....

Here's what I did with the Yamaha Aw2816 which has a manual the size of Funk and Wagners volumes I, II and III all together.

I decided the manual was useless, at least for now.

I wrote down what I wanted to accomplish..

made a list of about 10 things..

such as:

assign inputs

record track 1, play it back
play track 1, record track 2...etc...

basics..

After that

add reverb track 1, add reverb track two etc...

then add delay or effects track 1, then track 2...

then SAVE song

then

recall song

then EDIT or record OVER one of the tracks

I basically wrote my own manual by understanding what I wanted to do, I used the big stinkin' book as a reference rather than Instructions.

I took the AW2816 on a business trip with me along with a MIC and headphones .

I recorded to each of the 16 tracks, one at a time, played them all back one at a time then all together.

I wrote down the process in simple form. I also made notes of the ref book page numbers where I got the information.

I did not attempt to record multiple tracks with effects and such right out of the gate, it wasn't gonna happen.

I took what I knew about recorders and figured out how to do just that on this new machine, leaving all the other stuff for another day.

From this, I built my knowledge base, adding features as I needed them one at a time. even today I really don't care about all the stuff it does, I only use it if I need it and then go back to the book to learn how to do it.

I got this unit down to the lowest common denominator, record on all 16 tracks, add effects, mix it all up..save it, edit it, send it to mix down.

If we are coming home with a 24 track beast and are expecting to turn it on and record our first home CD that night..it ain't gonna happen.

Those of us that have multi track experience from years back have the knowledge needed to understand what you need these units to do for you. Start there, simple, basic. DO NOT FOLLOW the manuals approach to getting started, it may be in direct conflict with what you already know.

I still use the AW2816 and it has more stuff on it than I will ever use in a lifetime. It's the 80/20 rule here, I only really needed to know 20% of the features to get started. Quite frankly there are features on this unit which I know are there but will never use because I don't need them and probably never will.

these units a very hard to use if you are looking at them as a complete package..everything at one time.

they are all very simple to use if you treat them as simple basic recorders and forget all about that list of 100 features that made you buy it.

they all do the exact same thing as those multi track tape recorders from years back, they can build tracks one at a time. And, if you are recording on a single track, it's just like that mono recorder we had back in the 50's. Forget the frills, learn to use them in the most simple mode.

Randy Reeves · Post by **Randy Reeves** » 30 Jul 2007 3:41 am

I found this site to be informative.

http://www.tweakheadz.com

this site explains the process, has pictures of gear, and even examples of setups for many levels.

be careful with the GC guys. I have been steered wrong by their good intentions too many times.

Alan Brookes · Post by **Alan Brookes** » 30 Jul 2007 5:07 pm

Tony is absolutely right. I made up "idiot sheets" for myself, for the functions I need to use all the time, which basically said things like "turn button A to record, B to monitor...", etc. In recent machines they've tried to produce one that can be used for everything, and they've given the customer the option of setting all the parameters, but most customers don't want to set their own parameters, they just want to push the red button and record.
When I first came to record with the 2488 suddenly I had to set the microphone paramenters, and a whole lot more parameters that I had no idea at the time what I needed. What the machine needs is a default, but there is none....

David Doggett · Post by **David Doggett** » 30 Jul 2007 6:46 pm

I disagree with the idea of getting a cassette tape recorder. One of the main things you will want to do with your recording is to put your tracks on a CD. Just trying to tape practice sessions so I could practice the songs alone I was frustrated with a cassette player. It was too much trouble winding and rewinding to find the song I wanted. Putting multiple tracks on a CD is much more convenient, and others will also have an easier time listening to your CD. Also, you can send your digital tracks by computer to someone else, and can post them on the Forum. So even if you never want to mix and do overdubs, a digital recorder saves you having to get hardware and software to convert tapes to computer files and CDs.

Something like the Zoom H4 is very easy to record with. Like a tape recorder, you just push the record button. Each time you stop recording and start again, it automatically starts a new track or file. If you stop and start again between songs, you have all your songs on separate tracks, just like a CD. When you plug the USB cord into your computer, it automatically prompts you how to play the tracks or how to save them as files on your computer. Windows Media Player or any other audio program easily stores the files on your computer and lets you transfer them to a CD. You never have to do any complicated mixing. The two mics built onto the recorder are very good. Just point them at your band, or at your speaker. No need to invest right away in expensive mics, preamps, or analog to digital hardware and software. The only adjustments that might need to be made are the mic level (a switch gives you three easy choices and auto) and the fidelity of the recording format (CD quality wave, or MP3). You can play back through headphones, or through a line out to the aux input of your home stereo system, or through the USB cord and your computer.

There are some internal mixing capabilities, or you can take your tracks into the software program that comes bundled with the recorder. But you can do all that later. I have recorded my band in practice sessions and gigs, and myself solo, and put the tracks on CDs, and have yet to use the mixing program in my computer. I just use the recorder like I would a simple cassette deck, but it is all digital. After I record, I plug into my computer with the USB cord, save the files to the computer, and print the ones I want onto a CD. It really is easy as pie. When you are ready to get your feet wet with mixing and overdubbing, you already have everything you need to get started, and are already comfortable with the basics of working the unit. For me, the cassette recorders I fooled with were a waste of time, and no easier to use. And when it came time to play back and listen to what I had done, the cassette recorders were much more inconvenient. We are well into the digital age. The water's fine. Jump in.

Tony Prior · Post by **Tony Prior** » 31 Jul 2007 2:28 am

The mention of the cassette unit is to eliminate all added frills and be forced to focus on basics, and certainly if you are experienced and understand the technology they can be cause for frustration as mentioned above, but you can learn the process easily and forever. It was mentioned as reference point.

Each of us who learned or fooled with recording early on started with a no frills unit. We had no choice.

Once we had the basics down going the next step was not an issue.

Each of the small units mentioned above are very fine units, but they are all MENU driven with very small displays and can be confusing to a very NEW inexperienced user. I love those units and own two of them.

"These units are very easy to use and after you record your song you can mix it down, send it to your PC , master the song with the included mastering Software , transfer the file to your song folders, convert it to an MP3, burn it to a CD , send it in an EMAIL over the Internet and send it to an Internet site to share your Music"

This is exactly how they are selling millions of these things..and in many cases why there are half of them on EBAY a few months later.

The problem for many is in the first sentence, they never get passed ....

"After you record your song"

The biggest problem I see with manufacturers is that they assume that everyone understands what they are talking about in the SPEC/Features war.

They assume that every musician is also TECHNICAL or at least aim there products at the those who are.

David Doggett · Post by **David Doggett** » 31 Jul 2007 9:31 am

Well, I don't really disagree with much of what Tony says, but I will never go back to tape. I do hate the small screens and tiny switches with unreadable labels on digital recorders. Tascam seems to have the most conventional type knobs and user friendly operation according to user reviews.

Dave Potter · Post by **Dave Potter** » 31 Jul 2007 2:47 pm

David Doggett wrote:Well, I don't really disagree with much of what Tony says, but I will never go back to tape. I do hate the small screens and tiny switches with unreadable labels on digital recorders. Tascam seems to have the most conventional type knobs and user friendly operation according to user reviews.

I agree - tape (analog) is whipping a dead horse. Digital is the only way to take advantage of existing technology, and what will come in the future.

My personal home recording is done using an Edirol UA-25 external audio input device into a laptop via USB, managed by the software application Adobe Audition 2.0, capable of unlimited tracks. It has lots of audio editing/effects. I only record one track at a time, but I can hear multiple tracks already recorded as I record a new track. It works for me.

Any of the tape formats, cassette, VHS, etc, are nothing but impediments to be overcome, far as I'm concerned. I have a lot of "training" tapes in those formats, and they're a pain to try to use, compared to the Tommy White DVD I recently bought. It's the difference between night and day.

Alan Brookes · Post by **Alan Brookes** » 31 Jul 2007 5:03 pm

David Doggett wrote:I disagree with the idea of getting a cassette tape recorder.

Me, too. Being a reel-to-reel user for all those years I could never understand anyone trying to cram as much as you can into 1 7/8" per second, with 1/8" tape carrying 4 channels and no heavy flywheel. It's a formula bound to fail. The only reason I carry a little recording Walkman around with me is in case I come up with a new song, or an arrangement, which I want to keep in my memory till I get home. Then I just sing a few bars into the cassette recorder so I don't forget. (And at 62 that's becoming a problem !) I would never use a cassette recording and add extra tracks...

I would rather use a Minidisk recorder, but the ones I have don't have built-in microphones.

Tony Prior · Post by **Tony Prior** » 1 Aug 2007 3:08 am

If you are comparing the 4 track cassette units to todays technology, NO CONTEST.

Alan, it was the portability factor which made the Cassette units so desirable. Just like today..back then you got a MIXER, EQ and 4 track recorder in a small plastic package..you didn't have to drag around your Reel to Reel and an 8 channel board...I recall that my Teac 80-8 weighed around 70 pounds, I could hardly move it across the room let alone bring it to a gig !

I am reading that many of us learned the technical end of recording on these cassette units which is what gives us the ability to join the current party because we already have the basics stored in the cranial region.

I still have a Tascam 424 / 4 tracker around here somewhere . Every now and then I think about selling it on Ebay and when I search there are always a few selling with BIDS on them for around $100 or more. One of the features that these units offers is the 4 tracks at one time with a MIX console , 1 fader for each track with a Stereo send. The unit can easily be used as a 4 channel sub mixer..even back when this unit came out it had a pretty good feature set.

I bought a Tascam 144 when they first hit the scene back around 83 or so. I think it was $900. I thought, just like many others just the opposite of what Alan says above, we couldn't believe we could get that much onto a 1/4 inch tape at 1 7/8 ips !

And, I still have a dozen or so recorded 4 track cassette tapes somewhere around here that someday, when I have nothing to do..I will transfer them to the new medium using the 424..

And don't forget that thru the 90's Tascam had the 488/8 track cassette..we did two Church Choir projects using that little unit when I had one ..8 tracks on a 1/4 inch cassette but it ran at 3- 3/4 ips.

The technology of the Cassette era is hugely responsible for where we are today.

Now we even have MP3 players that are so small if you put them in your pocket you can lose it !

Gary Shepherd · Post by **Gary Shepherd** » 1 Aug 2007 8:02 pm

If you want to talk to a person on the phone about recording, feel free to give me a call. Send an email and I'll return it with my phone number.

Of course, that goes for anyone wanting to get into recording.

Alan Brookes · Post by **Alan Brookes** » 2 Aug 2007 4:06 pm

You need to keep those old cassette Portastudios so that you can play your old recordings. I've taken all mine, and the 8-channel Reel-to-Reel recordings, and backed them up onto Data MiniDisks. I've taken all the 2-channel Reel-to-Reel jam sessions from the 60s and 70s and copied them onto CDs.

Ben Jones · Post by **Ben Jones** » 3 Aug 2007 3:45 pm

to record multitrack to computer you need:
1. an interface to connect your guitar to your computer, usually via usb or firewire

This interface (Toneport UX2) comes with really nice amp modeling, effects, phantom power, and "zero latency monitoring". Amp modeling is great for a home studio.

2. a host (also sometimes called a sequencer or DAW)

This host (Tracktion 3) is very easy to use, costs $99 and comes with soft synths, drum machines, loops and even quicktime videos on how to use it. But i would suggest trying out all the free demos to find the host that best suits your workflow. (Cubase, Acid, Ableton, ProTools, Reaper..theres alot of hosts and they usually have a free demo to download and try)

You might also need some microphones if you play acoustic instruments or want to add vocals to your recordings.

hope that helps some.

Gary Lynch · Post by **Gary Lynch** » 3 Aug 2007 5:50 pm

Thanks for all the advise. I have learned a lot. Now I have a basic grip and will assemble my simple recording gear this week.