The Steel Guitar Forum

Posted: **4 Jul 2001 10:56 am**

ROFLMAO!!!!
Earl, yer killin' me

Posted: **4 Jul 2001 2:32 pm**

Mike,
So your saying I'm a whiner?
heh-heh.

Posted: **4 Jul 2001 2:40 pm**

Tommy,
if anybody is a "winner" in my book, it's you!
Oh, you said "whiner"?, OOOPSIE! (Now, hows that for poeple skills?)
Tommy, you know the score here in Nashville as well as anybody, yet you are undoubtedly a "great player". See ya at the Opry. We'll get together and whine a while during the show.

Earl,
as soon as you find a copy, would you locate one for me too? Oh yeah, are there different versions for different "regions?" Just wondering, My original copy ddn't seem to work!

Mike,
I'm with ya 100%!

Dave
[This message was edited by Dave Robbins on 04 July 2001 at 03:48 PM.][This message was edited by Dave Robbins on 04 July 2001 at 03:53 PM.][This message was edited by Dave Robbins on 04 July 2001 at 03:56 PM.]

Posted: **4 Jul 2001 5:47 pm**

Mike, actually I did make my living in Nashville for a few years, but I didn't have my stuff together to attempt to record when I was there (I was a kid in learning mode). If I hadn't decided to leave the music biz in the mid 80s (when competing against some pretty heavy players in LA) I'm sure I would have joined all the LA expats in Nashville and have been in the trenches in the studio. I think I made the right decision, now that I am back in the game full time.

But I do have a number of friends in Nashville who are current or past A team players, and from what I have heard it really isn't a lot different from LA or Seattle. Attitude does matter. I'm not saying there aren't session players who blatantly and explicitly play the political game, but I doubt the majority of them do. Sure you have to scrap to get your foot through the door (in the music biz like any other biz), but I just don't believe that many A team players stay in the game because of who they play golf with or who they fish with. Think about it. If you are doing a dozen masters a week, how much time do you have to play golf?

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www.tyacktunes.com

Posted: **4 Jul 2001 5:56 pm**

To get back to the original question. This has been gone over before, but the reason why producers use session players is really simple, and has nothing to do with golf or fishing.

The major label game is major league. A minimum of a half million for production and promotion of a large release. The producers want to go with the safe choice up and down the line, in terms of the choice of studios, engineers, arrangers, and yes the choice of musicians. Why would a producer want to take a chance on somebody who has never played on a top 10 record (or hasn't played on one in more than a decade) when he could just as easily choose a guy who played on 10 or 30 last year. Or who played on the last top 10 record they produced.

Back in the day, a record was produced for a few thousand bucks (ok maybe $20K in todays dollars), and if the record sold more than 20K copies, it made money. If an artist like Bill Anderson or Ray Price wanted to use road players it was no big deal. Now a major release needs in the ballpark of 500K copies to even break even.

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www.tyacktunes.com

Posted: **4 Jul 2001 8:43 pm**

Dan...i guess my 16 years here(this time), mean nothing compared to the few you spent here

.Perhaps had you, as you said, hung in there in LA & moved here again,you might do a better job than the current batch of transplants.I have enjoyed what playing of yours that I have been exposed to...so I sure wouldnt want to lock horns with you(musically speaking),over this... Im sure id lose

... but I wouldnt allow those who counsel you push to you into something you'll regret, if you get my drift.....
TW.. how do you know i didnt mean you?? make that 2 fellows.. i guess i need to edit that post for you

.....Raggs[This message was edited by Mike Cass on 04 July 2001 at 09:45 PM.][This message was edited by Mike Cass on 04 July 2001 at 10:04 PM.]

Posted: **4 Jul 2001 9:30 pm**

Dan,
When Grady Martin told Bill Anderson and Owen Bradley that they should be using me instead of him on lead guitar on Bill's sessions, I thought it was a big deal. My bad!I am now faced with the dilemma of trying to decide whether you're correct or simply trying to re-write history.Regardless, in my own mind, I will always remember the 1960s and 1970s as an era during which it was possible to work the road and view it as time spent in the minor leagues while honing one's skills, with the prospect of getting "the call" up to "the bigs",when a few of us were fortunate enough to be able to hear ourselves on the radio as we drove the bus to the next road date.Country music definitely wasn't as big a business back then as it is today, but it was a business that we players were drawn to purely out of love for the music.[This message was edited by Gregg Galbraith on 05 July 2001 at 12:06 AM.]

Posted: **4 Jul 2001 9:36 pm**

Dan,
think what you want, you still don't live here and apparently never were actively involved when you did, which was some time ago. You seem quick to try to quote facts about the past recording artist and how they didn't record many albums. However, you must have forgotten how that Jean Shepard was the first "female" back in her early career (around the time you speak of)to sell a million records. That is a far cry from the 20K figure you quoted. Oh yeah, some of those road pickers that played on those sessions you talked about... Does Buddy Emmons come to mind?
It seems to be easy for someone to make unfounded observations from afar about something they don't know or at least know very little about. You can take the word of your "buddies," which may or may not know what they are talking about (since we don't know who "they" are or what their agenda may be), or you can pay attention to those who are actively involved in "this" town on a day to day basis. If a poll were taken, I'm sure you would find that there are a whole lot more "hard working" musicians here who would agree with those who have dared to tell the truth on this topic, than you have "buddies" you claim to be involved(or used to be involved?). You seem to imply that those who have not achieved "financial success" have "bad attitudes". Well, in case you haven't noticed, this is Nashville, a town full of "professional musicians" who no doubt did just fine "back home" where they could be a "big duck in a little pond" but chose to come to Nashville to try to make their mark and try to make a decent living doing what they "know" and love. This is a serious town and has serious musicians of which some are so serious that they will stoop to nothing to try to make their way to/at the top. If you think that once you get your foot in the door that pure talent is going to keep you there, you are fooling yourself. Nashville "is not" ruled by talent! More than anything, it is "who you know", and "what have you done for me today".
To think that those at the top are the only ones "capable" is a farce. There is a whole other world in Nashville besides master sessions.There are great pickers who work there fannies off trying to make a living on "Demos" and everything else as well as anything they can get, who never get there foot in the door, and just as many who after they do get their foot in the door have to settle for the "B or C" list. Yet those who play the "politically correct" game seen to have no problem. And frankly, some of the "politically correct" pickers aren't necessarily all that great players! (no slam intended) Do they do a great job in the studio? Well, I'd say first, the "best" job they do is "kissin' A** and being "politically correct!" Any self respecting and "good" picker who is given the perfect conditions surrounded by those he works with everyday is going to do a great job. However, you don't have to be a great picker according to what "I" hear on the radio today, but you do have to be accepted by those at that level, and to do so is to be "politically correct." You know, use those "people skills" we hear about! As if the only ones who are capable of making it at the top are there because of their people skills. What ever happened to being a great player and excepted as such by more than just a tight little circle of "recording" buddies (or click)?
No time for golf at the top? Ever hear of the "Vince Gill golf classic"? Who do you think plays these things other than the hand full of "stars" you hear about? I don't happen to play golf (bad career move on my part) but I have been asked more than once about playing with some who supposedly were so busy in the studio!
No political game at the top? Of course not if you keep it shut off to anyone except that hand full you work with on a steady basis. There's no political game where there is no competition! Same ol' recordings, same ol' awards shows, same ol' producers, same ol' same ol'! No wonder today's country music (can I still call it country?) is so sterile!
Dan, maybe you ought to take up Mike's offer on that spare room until you can get a "dose of reality" about "this town", not L.A.

Dave

Posted: **4 Jul 2001 10:01 pm**

Fine post, Dave... couldnt have said it better...oh & some more names...
Lloyd Green,John Hughey,Hal Rugg, Weldon Myrick,Jim Vest,......Im sure they appreciated your comments, Dan....
Hey Dave... Im getting a little selective about who I might let stay here

Folks,remember two things... you never know who is lurking on here .. & Paul & Bruce arent the be all & end all of Nashville steel guitar players...

Good luck...Raggs
ROFLMMFAO!!!

Posted: **4 Jul 2001 10:15 pm**

Question from Dan: When do you have time to play golf and fish if you do 12 master sessions a week?
Answer: Saturday and Sunday

With all do respect Dan, you gotta be $hitten me...Quote: Back in the day, a record was produced for a few thousand bucks (ok maybe $20K in todays dollars), and if the record sold more than 20K copies, it made money. If an artist like Bill Anderson or Ray Price wanted to use road players it was no big deal. Now a major release needs in the ballpark of 500K copies to even break even.
Now tell me, what does this example have to do with what level of musicians play on a record to sell 500k copies? I thought the two primary ingredients for a hit record were the song and the artist? If that's the case, I can think of a whole lot of music that should never be heard on the air waves because of pi$$ poor musicianship.
I can also think of a whole handful of session players in Nashville with years of experience in the studio that have never played on a hit record... does that make them any less qualified? Besides...we all know that you can't predict what will become a hit record at the time it is recorded.
So..if I do a session and a song I played on became a number 1 hit...guess what, I'm the hottest guitar player on the block and move over Brent Mason. As far as I'm concerned getting credit for playing on a hit record is the luck of the draw because even guys like Paul Franklin have played on more records that weren't hit records, and I don't think that is a reflection on their ability to perform in the studio.

Posted: **5 Jul 2001 1:08 am**

Gregg....yep, I too play music for the love of it,not the $.
Thats why I started & why Im still at it.Any $ is icing on the cake.
The reason I moved here was that I had gone about as far as i could back home & learned all I could.
Ive never learned anything being the best player in the band,... I learn when Im in over my head & have to rely on my heart,knowledge & years of practice that will hopefully kick in & save my A**.
Thats why Im having yet another in a series of lessons in humility tomorrow...I have to play in front of Buddy & Dave ..& I usually have to follow Buddy!!! Sure, sounds like name dropping, but it is really a privledge, an honor & a responsibility.Try it sometime...
you find out who you are & what youre made of rather quickly.

I wanted to learn & thats what I got....the opprotunity to LEARN.
One good thing, after youve played for E its pretty hard for anyone else to spook you

.
The point here is that learning & application leads to confidence & confidence decreases insecurity & lack of insecurity lessens the need for "people skills" & if friction arises at a session or feelings are stepped on,(which can happen when creative people & their emotions are gathered together), one can act rather than to react & keep ones focus, poise & perspective.In other words, if Im ok, youre ok. If Im messed up, human nature is to try to assign blame for hurt feelings & the last one I like to look at is myself

.
The best people skills Ive ever learned are the ones that keep me in check, not you.
Oh, & if you think that a producer doesnt want you to knock him out with your playing, fine.(I dont mean dominating the session, Im talking the chill bump factor here) .
Just be prepared for him to continue to look for someone who does

.
Id rather work 1 date a year for someone who wants to be knocked out, rather than 300 for someone who expects mediocrity & mediocrity is what we have here today in the County Music industry.
Now Im all through with this thread so any shots anyone may wish to fire across my bow will not be returned. I'll be too busy trying to apply what Im fixin' to learn tomorrow.
Just be careful not to pi$$ me off, you never know,Dave & I may get the keys to the Ferrari......then you'll all be screwed

.its been a hoot....
Good luck to all...Raggs

Posted: **5 Jul 2001 5:09 am**

As for road musicians, back when a country music artist had an identity, it was largely due to having used their key road musicians on their sessions, not the other way around. From Hank Williams to Hank Snow to Price, Tubb and Anderson, using road players was necessary to maintain the authenticity of their signature sound and introduce any new ideas they came up with on the road. Bob Moore, Buddy Harman, Pig Robbins, and Grady Martin all had to tailor their talents to conform to the artist's style. Today, unfortunately, the artists all go to the same tailor.

Regarding the A team B teams in Nashville: I've been on many B team demos that, when I ended up in the A team studio, we would copy that B team arrangement to the letter and sometimes come up short. So the outstanding musicianship around here doesn't start and end at the A team's door. You'd be very surprised to know just how many B team arrangements you're listening to out there.
[This message was edited by Buddy Emmons on 05 July 2001 at 07:09 AM.]

Posted: **5 Jul 2001 6:02 am**

**CASE CLOSED!**

Thanks Buddy

Dave

Posted: **5 Jul 2001 7:51 am**

to quote Eddie Stubbs:"any questions?"

Posted: **5 Jul 2001 8:16 am**

Who in the hell is Steve Holy? Seriously

..Mike Weirauch

...Holly's brother, Mike...

Posted: **5 Jul 2001 8:21 am**

Just one addendum, if all you guys (Dave and Mike) DID finally break thru all the B.S. to be first call guys, would you want to put up with the music?

Posted: **5 Jul 2001 9:10 am**

Buddy said

You'd be very surprised to know just how many B team arrangements you're listening to out there.

I've been the victim of that a couple of times (not in Nashville).

I should clarify. I don't believe that the A team guys are the only ones capable of cutting it. There are probably enough great musicians in Nashville to capably fill the A team a couple of hundred times. Nor do I believe that it is a good thing that Nashville road musicians rarely get to break into the studio like Gregg did.

My two major points were that:

1) you can't stay in the A team just based on politics, you need to deliver. None of us who aren't in the studio really knows, but I would bet the vast majority of current A team spends a lot more time trying to deliver the product rather than shmoozing.
2) for better or worse, the economics of the music business make it harder for a road player to break in. The producers are going to go for what they consider to be a 'safe' choice. And for a producer from LA, that safe choice would be somebody like Dan Dougmore rather than an equally good Nashville player who has been trying to break into the master scene for a decade or two.

And Dave, I am somewhat familiar with 'Dear John' having played that song with Jean Sheppard more times than I would care to remember. Although I did prefer that one to 'Slipping Away', which featured not me (her road player) but Pete Drake.

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www.tyacktunes.com

Posted: **5 Jul 2001 9:32 am**

The odds are slim, but the chance does exist that a "B Team" will deliver the goods on an independent label that just might take off in spite of today's radio airplay. I can't help but wonder if the major money people are suspecting that possibility exists. Could there be a very faint "writing on the wall?"

I agree with The Big E, in fact, experienced first-hand myself what an "A Team" is capable of doing to what would be considered a demo that had gotten completely reversed in the process. One day someone will have the balls and the means to distribute a wonderful piece of work such as Earl Erb's CD, which definitely should be heard, among many others. I for one full-heartedly encourage these talented people to roll the dice in spite of Mr. Big. After all, this is the USA, the land of freedom and opportunity.

For posterity, Ralph Mooney has indeed worked a gig or two with The Cherokee Cowboys, and you know what? It was pretty cool!! ......Pete

Posted: **5 Jul 2001 10:51 am**

I've been gone for a few days (yep...road work! ha)and just read some of the new posts. (BTW, thanks Paul and Mike). I've relaxed by opinions and views a lot over the years (and some I've firmed up too), but overall, what I see is this division among some players based on whether they are a session player or not. You know, "non-session players to the back of the bus" kind-of thing.

I was very fortunate to have been included on some record dates when I wasn't really going for that. Had it been up to my quiet and passive approach, I'd never had gotten any studio work. I still believe that "if" studio work is what you want, even mixed with road work, and you spend the time (sometimes years) and effort (a lot), and given that you offer something worth listening to (I won't be the judge of that), you CAN get studio work.

I think we generally have a bitter view of the word "politics". Producers will hire who they like and who they think will help the project and ultimately, their own career. I do the same thing. I remember when Paul was breaking into sessions. He busted butt for a long time but never lost sight of what he wanted to do. He had his heartaches and turndowns....everyone doing it has. Dang..I've been turned down from producers and even for road jobs...still kinda hurts when I think about it. That's life, keep trying or go in another direction.

Mike

Posted: **5 Jul 2001 10:52 am**

I more I find out about this topic, the
less I wanna know. I spent an evening with
an artist who did a record last year in Nashville, politics to substance abuse,
if half of it is true, pretty sad. Greg

Posted: **5 Jul 2001 11:27 am**

I'd like to appologize to everybody out there who took offense at my comments about artists using road musicians in the 60s. I absolutely didn't mean to imply that the sessions weren't as important or the musicians as good as in contemporary sessions. On the contrary, it must have been some serious pressure to go in and do an entire album in 2 or 3 sessions. And there were some killer records in those days made by 'road musicians'. And a lot of records sold.

My point, not very well made, was that there were a lot more master sessions made back then than now, with less expectations of needing each and every album to sell a half million units. And the time was much more open, with many artists using selected road players on sessions, so it was easier for producers to make that decision.

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www.tyacktunes.com

Posted: **5 Jul 2001 12:21 pm**

Great post, Mike. The only reasons I get any studio work at all is that there aren't that many steel players here, and because I get a lot of repeat customers. I have a similar low key nature. You do need to do some self promotion to get a foot in the door, same as in any other business. I guess you can call that politics, if you like. If I lived in a town with players like Paul and Buddy and a thousand more, I know I would have a hard time selling what I could do.

Also, some of the heartbreaks can come from other players, not just producers. Bobby Black has told me some harrowing stories from his attempt to break into session work in the 70s, where the producer (Pete Drake) was on his side, but he got the cold shoulder like you wouldn't believe from the then A team.

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www.tyacktunes.com [This message was edited by Dan Tyack on 05 July 2001 at 05:24 PM.]

Posted: **5 Jul 2001 3:45 pm**

Yeah Danny and I know you've been there and done that yourself. There are horror stories and anyone who has gone there ("there" meaning not just Nashville) has them. In Nashville there is a very valid and present buddy system at work in the studio scene and it is easy to step on feet. But no matter what line of work you are in, "if" you want to climb the ladder to the higher profile and income producing areas, you gotta accept the stress and responsibility that come with it. It would be the same if a steel player who sang wanted to be an artist himself. Geeezzz, that's setting yourself up for immediate and long-term agony. But...if it's what you really believe you want out of life...

Posted: **5 Jul 2001 3:51 pm**

Posted: **5 Jul 2001 4:05 pm**

Hey, guys I'd like to say one thing: Let's just judge playing ability as such: Either you can play or you can't. Let's just play and listen to each other, and leave it at that. To hell with "names" and how many recordings we've played on, or not played on.
I think we aall are a decent judge of talent. Either I like what someone plays, or I don't. I don't care how many "hits" they have played on. Let me throw a few names at you: Culey Chalker, Doug Jernigan, Herby Wallace, Julian Tharpe, Just to name a few. How many "hits" did these guys play on? Are they lesser players than Pete Drake, Bruce Bouton, Dan Dugmore, Gary Morse, etc.? This arguement could go on and on. Let's just individually decide who we like, like lesser, least, etc. and keep it to ourselves. All I want is more "steel guitar" to be heard everywhere.

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The Steel Guitar Forum

Road steeler vrs. session steeler