Road steeler vrs. session steeler

Leroy Riggs · Post by **Leroy Riggs** » 27 Jun 2001 2:31 pm

What are the restrictions of a singer preferring to use their own road steeler on a recording as opposed to a steeler that does mostly session work. Just a union fee?

Leroy

Bill Terry · Post by **Bill Terry** » 27 Jun 2001 3:26 pm

I've heard it's not usually the singer's choice....

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Donny Hinson · Post by **Donny Hinson** » 27 Jun 2001 6:19 pm

If the singer doesn't have it in their contract (the right to designate musicians) it probably won't happen. (Producers call most of the shots.) I'd say about 90% of the chart stuff uses session guys, with the most noteworthy exception being the Dixie Chicks.

Miguel e Smith · Post by **Miguel e Smith** » 27 Jun 2001 8:43 pm

There are exceptions, but usually the producer, assuming it's not the artist, prefers to work with people he knows what to expect from. Although most session players can play some really "hot licks", they are usually called because they can interpret what the producer is hearing whether that is something "hot" or something simple or anything inbetween. This relationship is very much like that of a film director and an actor. Sometimes an artist is given the chance to use their touring players and, if all goes well, that chance may become a habit (and that's how some session players are born!). Chemistry between players and the producer and artist is also a big factor, but that's another story for another day. In general, really great players shouldn't be offended if they don't readily get used in the studio just because they are touring with a recording artist. If they will spend the time the studio cats have getting to know the producers and working their way through the social and pro channels, it can happen for them too.

Jack Stoner · Post by **Jack Stoner** » 28 Jun 2001 3:13 am

One of the big differences between the "road" picker and the "session" picker is creativity. It's a helluva lot different creating and not everyone has that talent.

I'm not taking away from anyone's playing ability, but I've worked with some super pickers over the years (various instruments) but get them in a studio where they have to create and they are totally lost.

This adds to the producers options that have been mentioned.

(My personal session creativity is probably one step above lost)

Johan Jansen · Post by **Johan Jansen** » 28 Jun 2001 6:31 am

Jack , you are right!
If you aren't able to come up with new ideas over and over, and get trapped by your own cliche's it's hard to keep up with producers that want to score all the time and like to be original too, and many times in the same song approach. Hard but nice job!

JJ

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Leroy Riggs · Post by **Leroy Riggs** » 28 Jun 2001 7:32 am

Jack,

What you say makes a lot of sense. I can also see that a producer or singer wouldn't want a style on their record that was already out there and identified with another singer.

Interesting.

Leroy

Mike Cass · Post by **Mike Cass** » 30 Jun 2001 5:37 am

one word: P O L I T I C S .
Most of the really good pickers I know in Nashville aren't goimg to let a young,college graduate,moussed & blow dried producer(in title only) dictate to them how to do something that the "Producer" doesen't even begin to have a clue about.Most any competent Musician can produce a record: just select the tunes, write the charts, hire good players,tell them when & where the date is, call them the day before to remind them

,bring a decent attitude with you,know what you want to hear & let them give it to you....it doesnt take a degree to make a record.I have "produced" a number of projects that I am proud of. Maybe they would not be considered "Radio Friendly" by todays standards, but they all have one thing in common.....a vibe indicative of a number of people in a room playing good music without a mosquito buzzin' around them telling them how to do the thing he hired them to do in the first place....kind of like taking my BMW to my mechanic & telling him how to repair it

....which btw, costs extra

You may want to remember that most of todays"Producers" became familiar with the PSG thru "Teach Your Chidren", "Fire On The Mountain" or some such bit of bad PR for the PSG.
I like what, I've been told, was Billy Sherrills method for record production....he followed all of the above & when they rolled tape he went to the parking lot for a smoke

Gene Jones · Post by **Gene Jones** » 30 Jun 2001 6:36 am

Yes Mike........reminds me of the time a producer trashed 30 minutes of TV tape because of an "unidentifiable noise" that he could hear, but none us could. (It finally was determined to be the "rim shot" that the drummer was playing on some of the material) www.genejones

Joe Smith · Post by **Joe Smith** » 30 Jun 2001 11:15 am

I would like to add one other thing. It's not how good you are. It's knowing what to play on a session. I have heard some really great pickers that just couldn't play good on sessions. Sometimes they play too much. I've heard other guys that were good but not great that really shine on sessions. Mostly becouse they keep it simple and don't step on the singer. Also coming up with a good signature lick.

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Miguel e Smith · Post by **Miguel e Smith** » 30 Jun 2001 8:36 pm

Although I agree with a lot of the stuff being said about "producers", especially the ones who have not had experience working with a steel, there can sometimes be and upside to that. The sessions I've done outside of Nashville are many times with producers that have never worked with steel. Because they don't know the traditional use of steel they also don't know the traditional limits to it. I get asked to play stuff that is far outside of my normal comfort zone (yeah..sometimes silly) and yet it pushes me to venture into uncharted territories...many times with a really cool result.
Some of the early Gatlin albums were like that. Larry would hum a line and say "play that". I'd say that I couldn't and he'd say..."why not?". I was pushed...for the better.

Leroy Riggs · Post by **Leroy Riggs** » 1 Jul 2001 1:44 pm

That's wild to hear that a producer (or anyone for that matter) doesn't know what a rim shot sounds like!!

L...

Franklin · Post by **Franklin** » 1 Jul 2001 2:21 pm

A sidebar to this thread is 99% of the session players I work with on a daily basis were also road players. I would say 90% are not political at all. The importance placed on politics is irrelevant to a successful studio career. Creative road musicians eventually end up making their living in the studio, when a studio career is their desire.

Miguel is one heck of a creative steel guitarist.

Paul

Mike Cass · Post by **Mike Cass** » 1 Jul 2001 4:05 pm

hmmmmmm ??? another county heard from.....So....I stand corrected ...
...a humble man doesnt need to be put in his place.... he's in it..
...unlike myself, apparently

.
I can live with that.
btw, for what my opinion is now worth, I agree,Mr Smith is for sure a very creative & excellent steel guitarist...one of my faves... Tommy White also, I might add.....

[This message was edited by Mike Cass on 01 July 2001 at 05:55 PM.][This message was edited by Mike Cass on 01 July 2001 at 05:58 PM.]

Tom Mortensen · Post by **Tom Mortensen** » 1 Jul 2001 7:05 pm

Politics, seems to be more a part of working ones way up and not so much riding on the top. In any profession.
With todays trend of using a handful of players on most of the music out of Nashville, I doubt if there is even a percentage point of ex-road warriors that currently have recording careers.
I do agree that being able to create on demand is most important.

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Bill Llewellyn · Post by **Bill Llewellyn** » 1 Jul 2001 7:26 pm

This general topic has actually come up before... I even started a thread about it myself perhaps a year ago. My assertion was that it would be nice to hear more road players on today's country music. I have to admit, however, that most of "today's country" which I hear is only what makes it to country radio, which is a limited view of the entire field. And what makes it to radio is usually very carefully crafted to reach a wide audience, and the producers are not likely to take risks with players who haven't proven their ability to land right in the zone when they are asked to. As a result, you hear a relatively limited (and extraordinally talented) set of musicians on Nashville's product today. Frankly, I really like what I hear,

but at the same time I think I'd also enjoy hearing at least some from those steelers who've been working it out with the band(s) on the road.

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Bill (steel player impersonator) | MSA Classic U12 | Email | My music | Steeler birthdays | Over 50?[This message was edited by Bill Llewellyn on 01 July 2001 at 09:13 PM.]

Mike Cass · Post by **Mike Cass** » 1 Jul 2001 10:39 pm

Tom.... after reading your post I realized that thats what I really meant to say.. btw .. if we are on the same wavelength , a bit of advice...you may want to don some asbestos clothing

.I do think, though, that as you said, the way up carries perhaps a more PC responsibility,
I bet maintaining ones post also calls for a little schmoozing & back slappin' now & then??? ...(putting on my flame retardent jump suit,now)

(ps, ...I edit because I care ....)[This message was edited by Mike Cass on 01 July 2001 at 11:42 PM.]

Tom Mortensen · Post by **Tom Mortensen** » 2 Jul 2001 5:06 am

I don't mean to imply that the small handful of musicians that have studio careers don't deserve it. Quite opposite.
Simply stating that there are not many "studio career" positions open.

I personally have had to finance my recording career by being on the road. And, I find that to be very exciting.(Sometimes)

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Mike Cass · Post by **Mike Cass** » 2 Jul 2001 6:28 am

oh, fear of fire huh ???? ok..I stand alone...

btw Tom , just curious....who do you work the road with ???...thanx.

Donny Hinson · Post by **Donny Hinson** » 2 Jul 2001 7:55 am

I imagine that most accomplished steelers that have been playing a few decades have been on the road at one time or another. So the theory that most "studio musicians" are former "road musicians" is pretty much a given, isn't it?

Dave Robbins · Post by **Dave Robbins** » 2 Jul 2001 8:01 am

No politics? Hmmmm. We are talking about Nashville aren't we?

Tom, careful about admitting working the road. That might not be acceptible by the "power elite!" Perhaps those at the top forget what it's like on the way up. Apparently, it looks different when they are "looking down" than it does when you're looking up.

It is very hard (almost impossible?) for those not in the "click" to break in, regardless of how good, creative, or anything else you may be.
I doubt seriously that anyone in that "comfort zone" at the top is going to move over and risk loosing future work to a "newby!"
It seems that there are those who believe that unless you are part of the "click" you can't possibly be any good, especially if you work the road or clubs or anything else. I agree that those who work at their profession day in and day out, especially with the same old group in the studio, are more proficient than the guy who doesn't get the opportunity, but that doesn't mean he don't have the talent or ability if given the opportunies often enough to make his mark.
How do you "get in" with producers, etc, without "politicing? How many got where they are today with out it?
In my opinion (of which I am just as entitled to as anyone else on this open forum), part of the trouble with todays sound is it's "sterileness" from the "same ol' people" being used constantly.
Perhaps if we heard more of a "variety in the musicians" used in the studio we might would hear more "new" country that some seem to claim is so badly needed. Nashville is loaded with great and capable musicians who seldom get the breaks they need but are just as good as those who have been fortunate enough to find success (afterall, we're all reaching for the "brass ring!). It is easy to be the best if you make sure that there is no risk of competition!
And there in lies the problem. Creativity? talent, ability? How would anyone know of your contributions if not given the opportunities?
Many of those who are so proficient in the the studio "started" on the road,in night clubs, etc. But I wonder how many of those who lock themselves in the studio day in and day out can "cut it" playing live anymore?

Ok, I'll put on my asbestos suit from here and await the "flaming!" (Like I really give a "c**p!") but,no matter what, it is still just your "opinion" too!

Let's hear more on the radio from people like Tommy White and Mike Cass and many, many, more great and capable players who are available. Get rid of the "berets", bald heads, and earrings,and "cool school", and bring in some of the one's in need of a hair cut with bills piling up from not getting a break.
How about more "hotlicks" and less "cheese!"
It might give new definition to "new country!" There might even be some of those who dislike the "new country" sound that begin to like it again.

Maybe it is time the "old guard" moved over!

OK,I have said all I'm going to say on this subject, so go ahead and "flame away! It's your turn.

Dave

Mike Cass · Post by **Mike Cass** » 2 Jul 2001 9:20 am

Dave, ... obviously, I totally agree with your post in its entirety.

Thanx for having the guts to buck the status quo & speak the truth. You are correct, I have seen some of those same "Studio pro's" in the clubs(their excuse for being there is to "stretch out"LMAO !!), but they still watch the tip jar with as much zeal as anyone else on stage

.
I have been embarrassed for some of them due to their obvious lack of playing ability & lack of familiararity with the style of music that they profess to excel in.
Its not about the playing or the music anymore,its about posturing.
I seriously doubt whether most of them could hang 4 hours & be familiar with all the material played on a regular REAL country job.Sure, Franklin & Brent Mason could... they grew up with the music...but I want to see Dugmore or Russ Pahl or similar others play a Price shuffle or a western swing tune or some Hawkshaw Hawkins & not show their A**...never happen !!!
Darrell McCall told me there was a reason he called me when Buddy became unable (due to his schedule with the Everlys) to performs some shows with him.I take that as the biggest compliment of my life.
That gig may make me a persona non grata with the cool school but Id like to see any of them try to hang with us .... I can do what they do, but there are lost without a clue doing what I do, or else they would be doing it.
We have been playing the same song for at least 10 years in this town: .... add2 chords(no A pedal thank you) & chiming & padding ad nauseaum.The bar has been lowered & I mean no pun intended.The old joke: "what are the most heard words in Nashville??? Heck, I could'a played that", has never rang more true.
I would be & have been embarrassed for taking $ for playing like that....I might as well dress up like Dave & hit the streets...same difference

Thats why I screen the calls I get for sessions....& if some of you seem to be a little busier now, it may be because others & myself declne some work that are deemed beneath our efforts.
Those of you who dont live here & dont deal with this POLITICAL atmosphere day in & day out cant be expected to relate... but to live & work here & say that politics may only play a small part in a studio career is like saying that Buddy Emmons has sat behind a steel only a time or two.....gimme a break !!!!
Now, flame away big guy .... LOL !!!!

Tom Mortensen · Post by **Tom Mortensen** » 2 Jul 2001 9:59 am

Mike, I'm with you and I don't think the fire or the "power elite" will lose any sleep over my feelings.
I have chosen not to put my life or career in their hands.
I took a couple of years off of the road a while back to pursue studio work in Nashville. At first I was encouraged and seemed busy enough mostly recording what are called "demo's" around here. I also was able to do a few master sessions.
The "master sessions", seemed relaxed, with time to experiment and less pressure to complete a predetermined number of songs per session.
But the bulk of the work I got were demo sessions.
A typical demo session might want 5 to 10 songs between 10am and 2pm. Usually the band is great but formulated, and the singer anything from soup to nuts.
At the rate of 2 or 3 songs per hour my mind tends to start wandering on about song #6.
Also, I find that a lot of the "up and coming" engineers that do demo sessions, are constanly working on their drum sounds so the steel is hardly in the mix for playback.
So for these and a few other reasons I chose to go back on the road, make money and do just the sessions that I am comfortable with.

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Buddy Emmons · Post by **Buddy Emmons** » 2 Jul 2001 10:08 am

I'd say Paul is partially right on this one. That 90% he speaks of are the underlings that can't get their foot in the door.