The Steel Guitar Forum

This is an interesting topic. Kudos to the guy who is taking the time to teach - the students he has- abou the psg- but I think part of the problem in fact would involve, finding ENOUGH people qualified to teach it in the schools-
also what exactly would be the best age to set up the learning curve? I think it ought to be, at least, when the child's legs are long enough to reach the pedals to start out with- Although there's some evidence for prodiguous learning on many other instruments, violin, piano & guitar probably most popular- steel is one of those instruments that it takes some theory to play well, and so, interest in the instrument should be completely "by elective" in order to actually be relaly effective, I would think.
Add to that that the kids have to have plenty of opportunity to see grown ups using it in
situations they will be welcome in (I.e, no smoky barrooms for classrooms)- and actually, how little popularity (in relative comparison to the 6 string) in national cutlure, and you have some huge hurdles to overcome to get it into the curriculum.
But- good luck, folks.
It maybe just takes that one guy to take it into a school where that ONE kid will be turned on to it enough to say "yeah, I want to do THAT" - to give an example that someone would care to emulate-
perhaps, to make it worthwhile.

"You have to know the rules before you can break them."

That was a great slogan I remember from the ads for MI or GIT in Guitar Player Magazine in 1986-87. I wonder how many of those graduates ever recouped their investment over the years. What's more interesting is whether they could have learned it from buying their favorite heroes' instructional videos or tablature.

Darryl, you ask many questions, most of which I suspect are Socratic and rhetorical, so I'll try to answer the ones to which you want a serious answer. My point is that the Internet and the proliferation of musicians' trade rags (especially Guitar Player, Guitar One, etc.) have made it unnecessary to bring steel into a classroom setting. I don't know what it costs (if anything), but I'll bet you music teachers in a public school system have to get some extra compensation or budgeting for teaching steel. Someone's got to pay for it - as long as it ain't me. A real teacher could probably shed light on that subject.

"Who is ""WE"?

The steel guitar community in general. And 100 kids buying literature from a select few vendors and individuals isn't helping me or the ninety plus percent of the players who don't sell anything. It's actually cluttering up the session and gig marketplace with upstarts who are playing for nothing and, thus, bringing down the already low rates that I would charge if I made a living doing sessions & gigs.

"Some here also benefit by buying and selling instructional materials..."

That's right - some. Not the majority of us, though. I'd be interested in knowing whether those same individuals are paying a mortgage off or putting the kids through school. I doubt what they actually make is anything of significance.

"What do
you mean by "formal education"?"

I mean exactly that - one done at a brick & mortar school (K-12) that taxpayers and parents have a hand in. You can include college level where a degree is the goal. This is in opposition to the one-one-one instruction that I favor where you go to a teacher's house or studio. Only a teacher can tell us where they make more money as it relates to steel guitarists.

I attended both Berklee (summer of '87) and University of North Texas (got a degree there, but not in music). With the exception of maybe 3 theory and ear-training classes, the rest didn't help me out as a player. Emphasis on player. I felt that I knew more than most of my classmates at the time because of independent study and reading that had nothing to do with the class. I won't say it was a waste of time, because you obviously need those (and the more advanced ones) if you're going to be a teacher, arranger, or perform in a symphony.

Please correct me if I'm wrong, but here are a few musicians who didn't necessarily depend on institutionalized education for their advancements and/or success: Jimi Hendrix, Stevie Ray Vaughan, Charlie Parker, Alan Holdsworth, The Edge, Johnny Marr...


"...would it be good to minimize complacency by minimizing formal training?"

As it relates to something as special as the steel guitar, I think it would.

"How widespread is the "complaint among those in the guitar community that there's a real lack of originality and freshness among the newer, younger players"?"

More than you might think among professionals. About every other issue of Guitar Player magazine echoes that sentiment regularly in interviews with established players and songwriters. Off the top of my head, Brian Setzer, for one. And that guy who plays for Los Lonely Boys. Look at some of the interviews in the old Steel Guitarist and Steel Guitar Player magazines and you'll read exactly the same complaints.

"Are there any other factors besides schooling that have increased crap production?"

Sure, if you mean the commercial pressure exerted by labels to be successful. But that's a different topic.

Anyway, I'm ranting. This discussion is about a general interest in playing and kids, not necessarily survival and creativity as professionals. The popularity of Robert Randolph and other upcoming popular steel icons I think will take care of that perceived lack.

Matt

Darryl: My wife is an elementary school teacher, and I know from experience that schools have had a lot of cutbacks in the San Francisco area in music programs. A lot of it depends on the music teachers and their dedication. When my eldest daughter was at Bishop O'Dowd High School in Oakland, she played the flute and their music teacher was very open minded. In addition to the usual classical music curriculum he also had a jazz band and a pop band. Students were encouraged to bring along whatever instruments they wanted, and there were several electric guitars and basses in the jazz band. I'm sure he would have found the steel guitar welcome. Again, it's all a matter of the personalities and dedication of the teachers. Most put in long, unpaid hours after school.

Even Hendrix and the rest of those guys had to start somewhere, as do the rest of us. Not everyone has the luxury to live their lives without a day job and dabble in the instrument 12 hours a day. I never had any "formal" training in guitar or any other instrument myself, but I didn't get the opportunity to make it my life either. I had to learn what I know from experience in whatever bands and nightclubs I could get jobs in on the weekends, so I feel an obligation to give someone else a boost if they want it. If not, I don't have the time to give them and won't take their money if they haven't got the interest and don't progress fairly quickly. I also offer private lessons if I think a kid has potential or desire, but I need to see them progress or I'm done.

<SMALL>I wonder how many of those graduates ever recouped their investment over the years.</SMALL>

Hey Matt, I know how someone starting out can be assured of not recouping on any music-related investments: by fumbling around, not knowing what they are doing. As far as your list of 6 people that made it out of the basement without the help of "institutionalized education", how many more people do you think are successful at music and could not have done it without the help of such institutions? I'll give you a hint: it's more than the ones that didn't. Futhermore, even if interviews in Guitar Player magazine echo the feeling among professionals that there is a lack of originality and freshness among new players, I'd like to see where one could find, in any of those interviews, professionals indicating that kids learning to be HACKS is the solution to the problem.

Sure, I guess if the only possible goal is to become a nationally syndicated punk-rocker, the last thing the a kid should waste his time on is learning proper techique... Course, he'd have better luck if he spent the same amount of money he's bound to lose chasing that dream on the lottery instead. There just doesn't seem to be much opportunity for breaking into a career in music where know-how doesn't count for anything.<font size="1" color="#8e236b"><p align="center">[This message was edited by Duane Reese on 28 November 2006 at 11:24 PM.]</p></FONT>

The best analogy I can use is the growing popularity of a hot actress. You loved her and her work when you first saw her. But when she became too popular, she wasn't special to you anymore.

Duane, I never said don't seek out a teacher. This discussion isn't one of "you're either for or against me" like so many other threads on this forum. I simply said don't bring it into schools at someone else's expense. Don't cheapen or erase its mystique and allure by making it too accessible.

The 'ukulele is enjoying immense popularity now due to all the efforts by manufacturers, educators, and cultural preservationists in Hawai'i. You hear it on Rice Krispies and car commercials. But be prepared for the inevitable backlash. It's been turned into a fad.

If you want the same thing to happen to the steel guitar, go right ahead and whore it out. Make it accessible to everyone so we can have another Oahu Publishing Story for this century.

Matt, I never wanted to see the steel guitar [sold] out like that; I initially just contemplated the idea, sort of a 'what-if' scenareo. In fact, I think that right now the supply (instuments, equipment, instruction materials) is probably close to consistent with the demand (seekers) at this time, without further promotion.

I only took exception to the idea of what I perceived as the discouragement of music eduaction in general; no matter what the instrument, someone who wants to learn should be encouraged to learn the right way, and not get the false impression (I think it's false) that there is a demand for innovation by the "pros" that only blazing one's own trail can accomplish.

But that aside, if the steel is something that not enough students would take an interest in and benefit from in a school music program, then it probably shouldn't become an addition to it *at the taxpayers' expense* - yes I have to agree. If there were a high interest, due process of deciding programs by the school boards can (and will) work that out. That's the only thing I wondered about in the first place, the actual status of that.

Matt,
You've finally revealed the truth behind your assertions. Your primary assumption is that what is not a benefit for you is wrong. Your secondary assumptiom is that something is bad if you have to support it with taxes. Everything else you say is a rationalization in defense of those assumptions. All of your categories mask the fact that your real categories are what costs you and what doesn't.

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"The less I was of who I was, the better I felt." -- Leonard Cohen<font size="1" color="#8e236b"><p align="center">[This message was edited by Darryl Hattenhauer on 29 November 2006 at 09:58 PM.]</p></FONT>

http://steelguitarforum.com/Forum13/HTML/001325.html

If you want to do something to bring steel to more people, please see this thread above.

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"The less I was of who I was, the better I felt." -- Leonard Cohen

OK, Darryl. Prove me wrong. For grins, please list for me 10 PhDs in the literary field who have made any significant leaps in creativity and style. Hell, try 5 who have matched the sales of someone like Robert Lewis Stevenson. And they can't be books that criticize and analyze other authors' works . You can email them to me personally so as not to waste bandwidth.

If you can do that, you'll convince me.

In fact I'm curious to know if any of you who are professional teachers in the music field can do the same with Bachelor of Music graduates. Double the bonus points to those who can find the same number of graduates in Pop, Rock, or Country whose influence was as profound as those I've listed above.

This should be fun.

Matt

Matt,

So that's your defense against having your argument exposed? You can't defend your ludicrous argument so you start another one equally ludicrous.

If your assumption that RLS is the measure because of his sales, then most of the greats aren't as good as he. But most of the hacks are. And Garth Brooks is greater than 99% of musicians. If profit in the private sector is the measure, then Mother Theresa was downright evil.

Name ten PhD's in political science who have changed the course of politics. Name ten historians who changed history. Name ten PhD's in accounting who revolutionized business. IT'S NOT THEIR JOB. You might as well name ten Hawaiian steel players who changed the direction of Hawaii.

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"The less I was of who I was, the better I felt." -- Leonard Cohen<font size="1" color="#8e236b"><p align="center">[This message was edited by Darryl Hattenhauer on 30 November 2006 at 08:51 AM.]</p></FONT>

So you're saying you can't do it. Fair enough.

If my arguments were as lame as yours, I'd withdraw and claim victory too. Name your ten history PhD's. It's irrelevant.

So the world is out of step with you. Why is it no industrialized nation has realized the truth of your argument?

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"The less I was of who I was, the better I felt." -- Leonard Cohen<font size="1" color="#8e236b"><p align="center">[This message was edited by Darryl Hattenhauer on 30 November 2006 at 09:58 AM.]</p></FONT>

.<font size="1" color="#8e236b"><p align="center">[This message was edited by Matt Rhodes on 30 November 2006 at 12:54 PM.]</p></FONT>

Matt - even though I agreed with your original thesis that I don't think there's any burning need to get steel guitar in grade or secondary school, and I have many issues with the way much formal education is conducted, I think many "formally educated" people do recoup their expense in getting educated, and further, go on to contribute and innovate in their fields. My main education is in engineering and science. The vast majority of field-pushing development is done by Ph.D-level engineers and scientists, both in academia and industry.

But let's stick to music. Go here to see a short list of some of Berklee's more influential alumni:
http://www.berklee.edu/about/alumni.html

A great many of these people are leaders in music, especially jazz or popular. Tell me that great players like Joe Lovano, Gary Burton, Joe Zawinul, and so on, are soulless technicians. I'm pretty confident that a similar breakdown can be made at other serious music schools like New England Conservatory, Julliard, Eastman, N. Texas State, MI, and others. One makes what one wants out of an eduction. The fraction of real innovators is always small, regardless of formal education, IMHO.

Unlike engineering and science - where formal education is usually prerequisite to be able to practice in the field - music, writing, and other arts don't necessarily require it. Great - there are multiple paths to the same goal. I still don't think this diminishes the value of a formal education for those who want it and know what to do with it. Myself, although I have no music degrees {I have too many degrees now }, the time I have spent formally studying music has been useful to me. It's all about motivation. IMHO, of course.

I don't hear any logic there. EXACTLY.

Just personal criticism. I CRITICIZED YOUR ARGUMENT. YOU DIDN'T DEFEND YOUR ARGUMENT. INSTEAD YOU ATTACKED MY PROFESSION AND MY ABILITY TO DO IT WITHOUT ANY EVIDENCE.

The fact is many professors can't or won't create anything other than students who are technicians and little else. AGAIN, EVIDENCE?

But somehow, I DID IT BY BEING IGNORANT AND LAZY. you've managed to secure a position in academia, no doubt tenured, OF COURSE, BECAUSE IT'S SO EASY, AND EVERYBODY MAKES THE GRADE. GETTING TENURE DOESN'T MEAN YOU CAN'T BE FIRED. NOT GETTING IT MEANS YOU ARE FIRED. that allows and enables you to judge, criticize, and analyze the creations of others AND INVALID ARGUMENTS THAT JUDGE, CRITICIZE, AND ANALYZE MY CREATIONS. without contributing anything new yourself. AGAIN, EVIDENCE?

You've become AGAIN, EVIDENCE? NO PERSONAL ATTACK? pretty much a symptom of the academic world's self-importance. A DEFENSE OF EDUCATION ISN'T SELF-IMPORTANT. AN ASSERTION THAT EVERYBODY IN THE WORLD IS WRONG BUT YOU IS SELF-IMPORTANT. ON THE OTHER HAND, YOU'RE RIGHT THAT CACADEMIA IS FULL OF SELF-IMPORTANT HYPOCRITES, LIKE THE ONES WHO LET CASEY KNOW HE'S A HILLBILLY, AND ALL OF THE OTHER PC PROMOTERS OF REVERSE DISCRIMINATION--THE ONES WHOSE PHD STANDS FOR PILED HIGHER AND dEEPER.

The surprising thing is that I'll bet you RIGHT and many other professors didn't start with those intentions. WRONG. MANY OF THEM SEEM TO BE BORN SCHMUCKS. ESPECIALLY THE MILLIONAIRE ADMINISTRATORS WHO ARE JACKING UP TUITION.

HERE'S THE SURPRISING THING. IF I HAPPENED TO CATCH YOU IN PERFORMANCE, I'D PROBABLY LOVE IT (BUT THEN I LIKE EVERYBODY'S PLAYING EXCEPT MINE AND SRI CHINMOY'S). AND I'D TALK TO YOU AFTERWARD, AND WE WOULDN'T THINK OF THE OTHER GUY AS A WIENIE.

In any case, Darryl, you've certainly given me and others something to think about and this has been a great discussion. I'm afraid I have nothing else useful to say about this topic. I AGREE, AND I DON'T HAVE ANYTHING USEFUL TO PLAY. I'LL BET YOU CAN PLAY CIRCLES AROUND ME. WE JUST HAVE DIFFERENT TALENTS. BUT I MUST ADMIT THAT THERE'S SOMETHING I DO THAT YOU DO WELL. AND THIS ISN'T B.S. BECAUSE ANYBODY IN ED WOULD THINK THE SAME THING: YOU'RE AN EXCELLENT WRITER (LIKE ALMOST EVERYBODY ON THIS FORUM, BECAUSE IT TAKES BRAINS TO PLAY STEEL). Thank you.

MORAL OF THE STORY: DON'T TALK ABOUT POLITICS AND RELIGION.

GOD BLESS YOU, YOU DAMNED REPUBLICAN.

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"The less I was of who I was, the better I felt." -- Leonard Cohen

Professor Hattenhauer,

My deepest apologies for angering you. They're just opinions and don't necessarily need to be supported. If I was in your class trying to earn a grade, I'd say otherwise.

But nearly all of your responses had what felt like a personal dig, so I replied in kind. Then I thought the better of it 10 minutes later and retracted it. I was hoping you wouldn't catch it, but I was too late.

I'm not a vindictive person and never thought I'd let myself use the forum to make such a response. But I slipped and it was an unfair and uninformed jab.

Sincerely,

Matt

Believe it or not, I voted against Bush last time

Matt,

I was just jiving about the Republican bit. I actually defend them and Christians because ed is so biased against them.

I know what you mean. After I sent the last one, I thought, "Why am I so hostile?" I got into a beef with somebody else here about a month ago, and I came away thinking, "What a waste of time." And there was a real corker about tone that went to nine pages, and finally bOb stepped in and said, "Cool it."

By the way, call me "Gramps." That's what my friends, students, and profs call me now. It used to be "Rockin' Doc," but them days is long gone.

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"The less I was of who I was, the better I felt." -- Leonard Cohen

When I was a kid in Conservatory (Vallejo, Cal.), there were 9 other youngsters in my class. When we had progressed from tab to beginning notation, 1/2 of them dropped out. I remained. Even with adults today, that little bit of arithmetic that is associated with reading music scares many away. !! ---j---

So are you saying you had 4 and 1/2 kids in that class??

Wow guys - that got WILD MAN.

Hey, I think I've got my answer to this puzzling question of mine, regarding the prestent or future status of steel in the school...

THINGS ARE GOOD JUST THE WAY THEY ARE.



Hey by the way: I actually didn't vote for Bush either, but I sure as heck didn't vote for Kerry!

Bye!

A sidenote:

Dr. Jeffries, you might be surprised to know that, because of one of your "Letters To The Editor" (Steel Guitar World Magazine) in the mid-to-lated 90's, you put me on a three year course of classical steel guitar studies. Your method of playing without picks works very well for that genre. Thanks again.

Matt

Duane: As I said: 9 + me = 10. 1/2 of 10 = 5. Like I said---that little bit of arithmetic scares many away.
Matt: Thanks for letting me know that. I've been surprised at how many of my (correspondence) students got into Classical. Some of the examples I used back then were from classical pieces. ie, Muzio Clementi, etc. They are beautiful and fun to play. One gentleman in Dallas does nothing on steel but classical---great sounds. ----j----

Dr. Jeffreys,

When were you in Valley-Ho? I grew up in Sack o' tomato (Sacramento) and used to go to the Bay Area to see what life was. You could even fish on the edge of the marshes just north of Vallejo without catching something that had two noses, three eyes, and four ears.



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"The less I was of who I was, the better I felt." -- Leonard Cohen

Darryl - I was there 1944-46. My dad was employed as a civilian on Mare Island Navy Yard there in Valley Jo. My brother and I drove to Sacramento to buy a Gibson E-5 (lap steel). I saw one like it in DC at the Smithsonian. Not long ago we spent 3 weeks in Hawaii, flew back to San Francisco to rent a car and drove over to Napa Valley and Vallejo. I did'nt recognize much---many changes. I've heard that Vallejo is bad now. We lived on Hobbs Ave. which is now "re-positioned." We took photos anyway. HJ