Steel Guitar in Schools?

Duane Reese · Post by **Duane Reese** » 21 Nov 2006 9:53 pm

I wonder if the day will ever come where the steel guitar, pedal or not, will show up in a public school music program, in some capacity.

Thoughts?

(I hope this doesn't get moved to the "Humor" section)

Glenn Womack · Post by **Glenn Womack** » 21 Nov 2006 10:03 pm

It would be a bit unhandy to march with at half-time ceremonies. Other than that, school people are usually locked in on "music" that doesn't beg to be played on the steel.............or any other kind of guitar without wierd effects plugged in. I've babbled enough, so there is my less than two cents worth.

Glenn

Les Anderson · Post by **Les Anderson** » 21 Nov 2006 11:15 pm

I am not sure a steel guitar would fit in with a school band. For the most part, the band plays march music; secondly, those kids blow into those horns with everything thing they have.

Playing steel with a wind band is not as easy as it sounds. Unless the steeler wants to turn up his amp until the felt paper vibrates, he won't be heard.

Another thing, how many rotations of beginners do you think a steel guitar could handle before it fell apart?

Ben Elder · Post by **Ben Elder** » 22 Nov 2006 12:27 am

Schools still have music programs?

Mike Pace · Post by **Mike Pace** » 22 Nov 2006 5:11 am

Some of my younger students (7-10) seem to gravitate towards the lap & pedal steel. Maybe because there's no pain/calouses involved?!? I've suggested to some parents that perhaps steel is the way to go, but they're the ones that are biased against it..... you know, "how are they going to give me a return on my investment playing THAT thing?!? Aint ever seen one of those on MTV/VH1"

Anyways, just like learning the recorder in elementary school, junior high had an introduction to the guitar. Man, those guitars were setup sooo horrible that we would've been better off playing them with a bar!

-Mike Pace [This message was edited by Mike Pace on 22 November 2006 at 05:12 AM.]

Jim Sliff · Post by **Jim Sliff** » 22 Nov 2006 5:21 am

Considering the limited budgets at most schools and the fact band programs are being cut regularly as "non-essential" I think the chance is zero...or less.

Band programs also feature instruments of wide appeal, easily taught by one teacher (using lesson plans that are widely available and accepted by state and district authorities). That normally includes orchestral and marching band instruments, and sometimes a "jazz combo" sideline project, where a six-string guitar and drumset (rather than individual drums) might might be included.

Steel isn't going to exist in the lesson plans; 99.9% of the teachers aren't gong to be familiar enough to teach it (especially at a sight-reading level) along with all the other instruments; and it's going to be tough to fit it into established materials or groups - it's not going to work in marching band, nor in the orchestra; in the "jazz" combo it would, but the teaching resources that would pass state muster aren't there - i.e. where's the textbook and the "music"?

Not trying to rain on the parade, but it's never going to happen.

Ron Page · Post by **Ron Page** » 22 Nov 2006 5:24 am

Some schools have "jazz bands" as part of the band program. My son played guitar in his jazz band, but they also required that he play in the concert band and taught him the baritone horn. I doubt that they've ever had a steel, but some of the youngsters I've seen at Scotty's could definitely play with the HS jazz bands. We'd just have to tie their A-pedal down.

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HagFan

Duane Reese · Post by **Duane Reese** » 22 Nov 2006 7:03 pm

You didn't rain on any parade Jim; truth is there never was a parade. I figured the chance was probably zero and I wondered if someone knew something I didn't. But it is true that schools have other music programs besides the ones that march.

You know, I think if it ever were to have happened, it would've happened no later than the '40s or '50s (or whenever lap steel popularity was at it's peak - once again, if someone knows something I don't please say so...)

Casey Lowmiller · Post by **Casey Lowmiller** » 22 Nov 2006 9:05 pm

For 1 semester of college I was a Music Major...then they kicked me out of the music program for being a hillbilly.

100% True Story right there!!!

Casey

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Known Coast to Coast as
"The Man with The Plan"

Carter-Starter, Fender Pedal 800, Fender Champion, Guyatone Double-neck, a cheap Artisan & a Homemade Double-neck!

Alan Rudd · Post by **Alan Rudd** » 23 Nov 2006 6:08 am

I teach guitar in a public school here, in a program we call Kids On Stage which focuses on integrating the arts with state curriculum. We have no marching band, but band has been offered as an elective. I have exposed some of the students to the PSG, they all like to try it, but for the most part, there has been little interest in the PSG from 7th graders. They are more interested in learning classic rock, especially "Smoke On The Water". They will probably wish later they had taken interest.[This message was edited by Alan Rudd on 23 November 2006 at 06:12 AM.]

Darryl Hattenhauer · Post by **Darryl Hattenhauer** » 23 Nov 2006 9:21 am

Casey is absolutely right.

In my experience, even if educators had the money and everything else, they would discriminate against what they see is a white male instrument. And sacred steel won't go because it's Christian. If you show them Cindy Cashdollar or Robert Randolph, they get mad at you for showing them their stereotypes.

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"The less I was of who I was, the better I felt." -- Leonard Cohen

Don Walworth · Post by **Don Walworth** » 23 Nov 2006 9:23 am

Smoke on the Water!! Hmm - when I was taking "regular" guitar lessons, the instructor said NEVER play that in a music store!! Always someone there that can really smoke you!!

I also asked at two music stores that teach guitar (and other instruments) if they teach Steel guitar. Both said the same thing: "we have a lot of folks ask if we teach that instrument, but we don't know of any instructors"... So there you go. People willing to learn; lack of instuctors. Or if there are local instructors, the music store does not know about them.

Just my observations. I'm tickled that I have found an instructor. Practice, Practice, Practice.

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Don

West Coast Double 8,
Nashville LTD,
Nashville 112

Stephan Franck · Post by **Stephan Franck** » 23 Nov 2006 9:59 am

Well I know of at least one player who graduated from the jazz program at Cal Arts, here in calif, playing PSG and banjo -- and no one called him a hillbilly.

Darryl: you really think public schools aren't equiped with pedal steel guitars because it's a "white male" instrument????????

Where d'ya hear that? On O'Reilly?????

And the other statement about "showing them their stereotypes..." I don't even know what that means...

Are you implying you ACTUALLY went to an elementary school principal and tried to make a case it was OK for the school to buy steel guitars because a chick and a black guy played it???? Or did you just make that up?

I'm not following...

(Edited 3 times for bizzaro spelling...)

[This message was edited by Stephan Franck on 23 November 2006 at 10:00 AM.][This message was edited by Stephan Franck on 23 November 2006 at 10:01 AM.][This message was edited by Stephan Franck on 23 November 2006 at 10:02 AM.][This message was edited by Stephan Franck on 23 November 2006 at 10:03 AM.]

Duane Reese · Post by **Duane Reese** » 23 Nov 2006 7:31 pm

Stephan, I'm not following you. Your response to Darryl is pretty confrontational, much moreso than your simple second-hand account of a contradictory achievement by a jazz musician can account for.

Are you just jumping at an opportunity for ideological grandstanding, or is there a particular nerve that he touched that we aren't aware of?

Darryl Hattenhauer · Post by **Darryl Hattenhauer** » 23 Nov 2006 9:56 pm

Stephan,

First of all, I don't belong to any party, and there is no party that would have me. And I don't believe in any of the general political categories such as liberal and conservative. I believe liberalism and conservatism (and Democraps and Republihuns) are all valuable but have contradictioms. I like to think about various positions on things. In my long life, I've changed my mind about a lot of things, and I will probably continue to, so I don't want to be too dogmatic.

Casey said he went to college and was treated like a hillbilly. I believe him because I think the education establishment discriminates against working class white males. I'm always happy to see the exceptions, like the one you mentioned.

You are right that most people who say that there's reverse discrimination are conservatives. But some conservatives enforce reverse discrimination, which the Supreme Court made the law of the land, and the corporations generally endorse. Meanwhile, there are some people on the left who believe there is reverse discrimination.

I don't agree much with O'Reilly, but then I can't think of any famous pundit or journalist that I usually agree with. I do find most of them interesting, though.

So I believe that a spectrum of things should be considered, and I believe that education doesn't do that. From my experience, educators (like a lot of other folks) get steamed when you show them their biases. So hypothetically, if you point out the Cashdollars and Randolphs, the general response would be that such exceptions exemplify how the white males control beliefs.

So I don't think you're confrontational as much as puzzled by what I said.

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"The less I was of who I was, the better I felt." -- Leonard Cohen[This message was edited by Darryl Hattenhauer on 23 November 2006 at 09:57 PM.][This message was edited by Darryl Hattenhauer on 23 November 2006 at 09:59 PM.][This message was edited by Darryl Hattenhauer on 23 November 2006 at 10:06 PM.][This message was edited by Darryl Hattenhauer on 23 November 2006 at 11:38 PM.]

Stephan Franck · Post by **Stephan Franck** » 24 Nov 2006 9:33 am

Duane, Darryl got it right, his statement puzzled me, is all.

And Darryl, I think, you're also right in your second post that what we need these days is REALISM, not IDEOLOGY of any sort.

The reality is that our public school system is in shambles, rating someting like 35th among industrialized nations, with shortage of qualified teachers, books, computers, etc, and YES, the demise of art and music programs that are essential to the kids development...

So in that context, why, as a matter of public policy, are public school not equiped with pedal steel guitars??? Uhhh???

And Darryl, the reason why I reacted to your statement, is because you seemed to be dragging what I would call "white-christian-male discrimination fantasies," into the mix.

Are white christian males really persecuted in this country? I'm not going to even debate that, because this is a steel forum.

And last, yes my anecdotal evidence means nothing statistically, but I'll just say this. My daugher is in the school orchestra, where they play a lot of americana pieces, and if a kid played the steel and offered to play it in the orchestra, everybody would find that immensely cool.

I won't discuss this any further, because it's the wrong forum.

Just know that this is in no way personal. Just had to follow up on your statement.

Best.

S

Darryl Hattenhauer · Post by **Darryl Hattenhauer** » 24 Nov 2006 12:28 pm

Stephan,
Your anecdotal evidence IS significant. Those exceptions to the general pattern would show how steel can show up in the schools in some capacity (as Duane asked before I treated everybody to the one true philosophy, "Darrylism"). So could you tell us more about the successes you mentioned? What is Cal Arts? That would shed light on how it might happen elsewhere.

Duane,
I hope somebody here like Stephan has more examples of steel in schools. It seems clear that marching bands are impossible. But talent shows would be a place where steel could appear.

Which leads me to you, Alan. What is this Kids on Stage program? Since steel is accepted suggests that talent shows aren't the only place where steel could show up.

Mike,
What happens with the kids who play lap? That might be the most likely entry point, because they already like guitar. What opportunities do they have to play it at school?

Jim, would a six-string lap and reso get past all of the roadblocks you mentioned?

Ben, could it be that the less funding there is for music, the more more schools will welcome anything students bring on their own?

Another possibility is that some religious schools might catch on to sacred steel and that it might slowly (very slowly) spread to public schools.

As far as the coolness factor, maybe the more that steel shows up on all of the different cable and net programs, the more it will catch on (however slowly). And the more crossover there is (like Franklin with Knopfler) the more it will catch on.

It would be good to know how the young steelers got interested in steel. Anybody got any examples?

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"The less I was of who I was, the better I felt." -- Leonard Cohen[This message was edited by Darryl Hattenhauer on 24 November 2006 at 12:29 PM.]

Stephan Franck · Post by **Stephan Franck** » 24 Nov 2006 2:27 pm

Darryl, Cal Arts is a major arts college here in So Cal. It has an animation program that was created with the Disney studios, a jazz Program, and an acting program, among other things. In term of animation and music, I think that's where Danny Elfman and Tim Burton met -- I think...

In term of how to get the PSG into school/colleges, I think it's never going to be a top-down approach. It's always going to be bottom-up -- someone's with a pre-existing interest in steel (either a student or a teacher) will bring it to the school, and everybody will find that cool and different... and that may or may no spark interest in other students.

Darryl Hattenhauer · Post by **Darryl Hattenhauer** » 24 Nov 2006 3:28 pm

Pardon my obtuse inability to recognize that you're talking about the California Institute of the Arts. There may be no better college of its kind in the world. The list of writers and musicians there is like a Who's Who of the greatest. They cover everything.

I'll bet they do a lot in the nearby schools. Does anybody reading this know what Cal Arts and other colleges are doing in the schools?

How about hearing about music education from others around the world?

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"The less I was of who I was, the better I felt." -- Leonard Cohen

Paul Norman · Post by **Paul Norman** » 24 Nov 2006 3:41 pm

My MSA would be heavey toting it in a
school parade. And I need a really long
cord.

Duane Reese · Post by **Duane Reese** » 24 Nov 2006 7:13 pm

What caused me to remark on what I called "ideological grandstanding" was the use of language akin to...

Are white christian males really persecuted in this country? I'm not going to even debate that, because this is a steel forum.

You are right in pointing out that this is a steel forum and not the place to discuss that (the place for that is a misandry victim's support forum).

And Darryl, man I wish I would've had a brain that wasn't all rock 'n roll scrambled in high school, or I gaurantee you they'd have seen some steel in those days.

Darryl Hattenhauer · Post by **Darryl Hattenhauer** » 24 Nov 2006 7:49 pm

I just talked to a teacher with her musician son. He's bout twelve and plays in the school's orchestra, and also its jazz band. They say the situation is exactly what several people here say: The whole program is geared toward getting people to that highest pinnacle of achievement, the marching band.

They said that anybody who showed up with an instrument that the doesn't always use would not be allowed to play it. So something that you sometimes find in jazz bands like banjo, mando, or lap would be rejected no matter if you played like Bela Fleck, Tiny Moore, or Cindy Cashdollar.

That situation is even worse than I thought, but it's only one school district.

Don't they have talent shows anymore, where you could play almost anything, even in a trio of cimbalom, sakbut, and kazoo?

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"The less I was of who I was, the better I felt." -- Leonard Cohen

Mat Rhodes · Post by **Mat Rhodes** » 25 Nov 2006 8:38 am

Please pardon my short-sightedness, but how exactly would WE benefit from kids learning steel?

I get the impression that most of the accomplished players in and outside of this forum learned it on their own without the benefit (curse?) of a formal education. I would credit their determination and desire to learn the instrument more so than what they were "spoonfed" via a teacher. I'm not undermining the importance of teachers and instructors: I had an awesome teacher in Susan Alcorn and benefitted greatly from one-on-one instruction from her. I just don't like the creative complacency that formal music training seems to breed. I think a student should be worthy enough to take on learning this instrument and make his/her own discoveries in the process.

There's a complaint among those in the guitar community that there's a real lack of originality and freshness among the newer, younger players and I think some of that has to do with the over-abundance of formalized music training. Too much schooling has produced a generation (or two) of "cookie cutter" musicians that bring nothing new to the table. I'm not so sure I'd want the uniqueness of the steel guitar to be watered down or even standardized.

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Matt
<img width=80 src=http://mywebsite.register.com/db2/00180 ... CN0205.JPG>

[This message was edited by Matt Rhodes on 25 November 2006 at 09:05 AM.]

Stephan Franck · Post by **Stephan Franck** » 25 Nov 2006 8:57 am

You know, it's interesting, there was a thread on the French Steel Forum excatly like this one -- how do we get the PSG into schools? Who's the next generation? etc...

And I do agree that most carreers in the arts are vocational and self motivated in nature. None of the things I do, I was taught in school. I was always the weirdo for playing guitar, drawing and writing... And now I work in the movie business as a writer/artist and also work as a musician...

So I'm not sure what trying to teach the jocks how too draw Mickey or play the PSG would have accomplished...

Don't get me wrong, I'm all for teaching music in school, but maybe, as far as the general population is concerned, it's OK to keep it generic.

We're artists -- we're the odd ones out. Let's not be that kid who dyes his hair red and angrily asks the people on the bus what they're looking at...

Duane Reese · Post by **Duane Reese** » 25 Nov 2006 7:27 pm

Hey hold on guys; I wasn't implying that we should try to get it in schools, or asking how we can - I was just wondering out loud if it'd ever happen, or if it already had and someone knew about it.

But aside from steel specifically, I have to say that as far as the worry about kids not producing fresh and original material due to too much education... You know when I was in my teens, I had the same idea (I was playing rock guitar then). I figured that if I learned music theory, like scales and standard progressions and things, suddenly my whole train of creative thought would be forced into conforming to unoriginal tendencies, and all the hit material I felt obliged to come up with would never come to fruition. So indstead I decided to throw the basics to the wind and go my own unique direction with music, as the only possible way to break the new ground necessary to break through to musical greatness (or whatever)...

And you know what the result was? Everything I came up with was RUBBISH. To write any music that sounded decent was basically impossible because I didn't even know how or where to start, and anything I did start was so devoid of any kind of direction or hook that it was either never finished into a piece, or came out so bizzare and unlistenable that it was useless; I mean, putting lyrics or a melody to it was out of the question. Much of these "song ideas" were the result of cobbling together chords, often played as arpeggios, in a random and incoherent manner; the chords themselves were often made of notes that were also selected randomly and/or without any sense. It was only when I learned what the heck I was doing that I was able to write music.

I totally disagree with any idea that too much education in music thwarts creativity. You have to know the rules before you can break them. If you don't, forget bringing anything to the table, new or old - that's just how music works (good sounding music anyway). If I hadn't actually got real instruction when I started out on pedal steel I would never have played anything satisfactory enought to have stuck with it.