Singers vs. Steelers

David Doggett · Post by **David Doggett** » 16 Dec 2005 11:22 pm

I think a case can be made that the voice is the greatest of all musical instruments. The artificial instruments seek to imitate it with their own unique tonality and technical capabilities. I have sat through a 5 hour Wagnerian opera. some people sit through the entire Ring cycle of four of these in four days. I can't imagine sitting through more than an hour of instrumental music, although I guess I have done more than that in a jazz club, but I was drinking and smoking and messing with a woman, which was mostly the point. David Mason has something with his boinkability factor. But how does that explain men, or even women, listening to Pavorotti, or George Jones? The voice is a direct connection with the soul of the performer. An instrument is an abstraction between the musician and the listener. It is certainly more fun to sing, which is pure joy, than to play an instrument, which is very difficult physical and mental work. As an instrumentalist, my greatest thrill is to play good intertwining back up and a brief lead or two for a great singer. If I do it well, I'm the icing on the cake. The singer is the cake.

David Mason · Post by **David Mason** » 17 Dec 2005 3:56 am

You guys have to remember that when you go to a concert or club, you're actually trying to listen to the music, instead of thinking about boinking; that in itself is unusual and perverse. Most people have no idea what's going on onstage, except as some sort of perceived surrogate boinkfest.

There's an interesting autobiography and instruction manual by songwriter Jimmy Webb, "Tunesmith: Inside the Art of Songwriting." He very much considered himself to be coming from the tradition of "American songwriter" that spawned Irving Berlin, George Gershwin etc. He worked really, really hard at themes and word choices. Harlan Howard, the early Willie Nelson (before he became "Willie Nelson"), and Merle and Waylon (before the bottle & the dope) certainly used to at least know how to tell stories, too. In contrast, I accidentally heard a (new?) Rascal Flatts song the other day - it seemed to be about riding Harleys, and boinking, and Being True to Yourself, and Getting Through the Pain, and boinking, and Loving America, and riding Harleys, but it was a completely disjointed word salad*, no narrative thread whatsoever. Though I admire her pluck, Gretchen Wilson's "Redneck Woman" is another one of these, as are the interminable country songs about being country and how country you really are, "I'm So Country", "I'm More Country than You", "I Have Country Dribbling Out of Every Orifice", etc. As are all the songs listing real singers like Merle, Willie, Waylon etc., who you'd probably be a lot better off listening to in the first place.

In short, b0b, it's not your fault and it's not the singer's fault, it's the song's fault - get Bach to where you once belong. Personally, I'd rather shoot the drummer before the singer (or at least hide his friggin' cymbals), but We'll Get Through the Pain, Somehow.

* http://www.fasthealth.com/dictionary/w/word_salad.php [This message was edited by David Mason on 17 December 2005 at 04:06 AM.]

Theresa Galbraith · Post by **Theresa Galbraith** » 17 Dec 2005 5:01 am

It's subjective as to what crap is.

John Cox · Post by **John Cox** » 17 Dec 2005 8:46 am

I'll be the first to admitt that I can't sing. I doubt few people ever really stop and ponder what a good voice for music is to, what sounds medcore to just flat terrible. I find that there are very few artist worth listening to. J.C.

Mat Rhodes · Post by **Mat Rhodes** » 17 Dec 2005 8:55 am

I doubt that steelers who CAN sing and write songs are as critical of singers & lyrics. I used to dismiss singing & songwriting until I actually tried it. When I found out that doing it even marginally well takes more labor and patience than I initially gave credit for, my mind was changed. A lot more people are doing it now and it's a saturated market. No wonder it's hard to sound original or clever.

Matt

Pete Blakeslee · Post by **Pete Blakeslee** » 17 Dec 2005 9:30 am

Interesting and perceptive what Steinar wrote. It is often said of Billie Holliday that the secret of her greatness was that she sang with the phrasing of the great horn players of her day. As Steinar suggests, it is a mistake to limit yourself to music without vocals; as it would have been a mistake for any of the great singer to listen only to vocal recordings.

Pete, Lincoln, NE

Mike Perlowin · Post by **Mike Perlowin** » 17 Dec 2005 10:40 am

Words and music appeal to different parts of the brain. Words contain ideas and even the simplist idea like I love you or let's go for a ride in my new car appeals to the intellect.

Instrumental music is pure sound, and appeals to the emotions.

I like to use my recording of Shostalkovich's "Polka" (from my Firebird Suite CD) as an example. The tune is a musical joke. Everybody can hear the humor in it. Now it's one thing to write funny lyroics, but Shostakovich wrote funny sounds.

It's a different art form, and one which has greater appeal to me personally. Others ovbviopusly feel differently.

I agree that listening exclusively to other steel players is limiting. Personally I listen to relatively few of them, and when I do, it's not to cop licks (although that sometimes happens) but to enjoy their music, just as I do with players of any other instrument.

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"Never underestimate the value of eccentrics and Lunatics" -Lional Luthor (Smallville)

Brett Anderson · Post by **Brett Anderson** » 17 Dec 2005 11:02 am

There's a reason you don't see music only, no vocals clubs. I would say most of us on here are of the country school. It's tough to get your point across to Joe six pack in a country song with no vocals. Dare I say impossible. And if good singers are a dime a dozen, then there must be a shortage of dimes in Arizona.

Bo Borland · Post by **Bo Borland** » 17 Dec 2005 11:31 am

I am with Mike P on this one.. there is music I like and music I don't. I try to not put a value judgement on it. In my truck I have my original Step One Swing series on cassette that I have just flat worn out, and some older George Strait.. I listen to very little radio and then only for the steel. I asked Herby W. once who he listened to, he told me George Shearing, to get some comp ideas..same question to Buddy E., he told me great horn players and jazz guitars. That was in the late 70's. That probably hasn't changed all that much.
I never really pay all that much attention to the lyrics, but I do pay attention to the voice. And I pay alot of attention to the steel..shoot, who wouldn't want to play like Buddy if they could.

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Bo Borland
Once, only my equipment was considered vintage... now I find that I am too!

Jim Cohen · Post by **Jim Cohen** » 17 Dec 2005 12:18 pm

Others ovbviopusly feel differently.

Ovbvioupusly.

Andy Greatrix · Post by **Andy Greatrix** » 17 Dec 2005 12:28 pm

Charlie Parker was said to have known the lyrics to the tunes he played, and that includes the melodies he re-wrote. For instance The chords to "Back home in Indiana" became the chord changes to Donna Lee etc. etc.
PS If you want a radio station that plays instrumentals, as well as vocals, check out CKUA on the internet. The other morning, I heard Barney Kessal, Bud Powell, Connonball Adderley and John Macloughlin. (between 5 and 6 AM). The station is funded publicly and is very eclectic.

Steinar Gregertsen · Post by **Steinar Gregertsen** » 17 Dec 2005 1:01 pm

Ovbvioupusly.

Who you calling an ovbvioupusly!? Wanna take that outside?!

Steinar

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www.gregertsen.com

Bill McCloskey · Post by **Bill McCloskey** » 17 Dec 2005 1:35 pm

I'm with Bob. As a jazz fanatic, I'd say that the majority of my collection is instrumental. Not to say that I don't have vocalists. It is just that I have a tendancy not to listen to vocals as much. For me, boredom sets in when a story is set to a song. It is like hearing a joke more than once. But instrumental music? It's a different story everytime its played. I've probably listened to Kind Of Blue over a thousand times. Can't imagine listening to a vocal album that many times.

Gene Jones · Post by **Gene Jones** » 17 Dec 2005 2:09 pm

I've played literally thousands of songs backing-up vocalists during my 50+ years in music, and I always intended to learn the lyrics to at least one of them.......but I never found the time!

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<img width=100 src=http://genejones.bizland.com/Gene%20Rad ... motion.jpg>
www.genejones.com

Mike Perlowin · Post by **Mike Perlowin** » 18 Dec 2005 1:36 am

Ovbvioupusly.

I ovbvioupusly need to stasrt weariong myu glassesd more when I go in linme.

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"Never underestimate the value of eccentrics and Lunatics" -Lional Luthor (Smallville)

Andy Greatrix · Post by **Andy Greatrix** » 18 Dec 2005 8:00 am

I was listening to Manhatten Transfer sing "Have Yourself A Merry Litle Christmas" on TV last night. They were singing chords that Curly Chalker would have been proud of. Their collective voices are a finely honed instrument.

Tony Prior · Post by **Tony Prior** » 20 Dec 2005 3:37 am

I played two gigs this past weekend..

I can now safely define "Sounds like CRAP"

I think that b0b , and I'm just throwing it out there, had a "REACH MY LIMIT" day recently..

he's not wrong with what he is saying...

Very rarely have I played in bands where the singers did not think it was about them...at some point, eventualy...

In many cases singers do just view the actual real players of Instruments as support people for the big dream of being famous...recognized..popular...
( insert your own comment here)

I look at what b0b has said and it does make me reflect back...I don't claim to be anything more than what I am, but I can cut a gig on Steel, Tele or singing..I'm not Loyd or Paul..but I can get the job done and the phone does ring.

The Steel is probably one of the most foreign Instruments ever developed..to get music out of it that is even remotely in tune or in sync with a band is a major feat all by itself...whereas SOME , not all, bubba singers go get a 6 string, learn 3 or 4 chords , learn 20 country songs ,then sing in front of a band and catipult there egos' to the Sun...and the next thing ya know they are telling you what to play....how they expect it to sound..."This is what I want"...

b0b is not wrong...

me, when this happens, I just get up from the Steel, hand over the Bar and Picks and say.."Show me"...

I also do agree that there are many Musicians that can overkill a song..but that does not make them bad players, it makes them less than desirable musicians...[This message was edited by Tony Prior on 20 December 2005 at 03:41 AM.]

Post by **Dave Mudgett** » 20 Dec 2005 6:43 am

Very rarely have I played in bands where the singers did not think it was about them...at some point, eventualy...

Yes, that's the "star system" I mentioned earlier. I don't like it either - balance between instruments and voices is essential. But I think what many are saying is, "don't throw the baby out with the bath water".

The problem here is that most "non-musicians out there in radioland" generally find it easier to connect to a singer - they can personally relate, because everybody sings - er, well, maybe some shouldn't, but ...

Interestingly, when a famous guitar player comes along (let's say a Roy Buchanan, Danny Gatton, Yngvie Malmsteen, and so on), they often have singers, but the singer is generally relegated to a sideman role. It's about power.

Drew Howard · Post by **Drew Howard** » 20 Dec 2005 7:34 am

YES!!!!!!!!

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Drew Howard - website - Fessenden guitars, 70's Fender Twin, etc.

Charlie McDonald · Post by **Charlie McDonald** » 20 Dec 2005 11:54 am

Playing with a singer is great. There's a single center around which everybody plays.
Besides, if there weren't a singer--particularly a female one--I wouldn't get to do backing vocals. Singing is great.

Except for Wagner. I love all the parts that don't have vocals. Der Meistersinger overture.

Jim Phelps · Post by **Jim Phelps** » 20 Dec 2005 1:08 pm

Maybe we have different definitions of what constitutes a "great" singer.

For most people and most likely also for many musicians, a great singer is one who has a good voice and sings on key. As b0b said, there are millions of these, and they don't do anything much for me, either.

To me, a great singer is one who has something that's really hard to define but I know it when I FEEL it. They have that something extra, in their phrasing, inflections, expression, all the subtleties many people don't catch, that make the difference between just sounding pleasant and ripping your heart out.

That's what defines a great singer to my way of thinking, and there are very few of these.

Funny thing is, some of the ones who can do this really AREN'T great singers.

A good example is Kris Kristofferson. The man seems to have little real technique or control, but his "Sunday morning coming down" is very powerful. Who else could sing that song and get all that hurt and soul into it? Well, to answer my own question, Johnny Cash...

Johnny Cash was another. Not technically great, but had soul. Even the kids say that his version of "Hurt", one of his last recordings, really rips your heart out, and by that time his voice was not what it was in his younger days. If you haven't heard it, search for it online, the video is online free.

Another, Hank Williams (Sr.). Didn't have a great voice or a lot of fancy technique, but his "I'm so lonesome I could cry" sure reeks of emotion.

For someone with loads of expression and emotion and a voice like an angel too, listen to some Eva Cassidy. Play her versions of "What a wonderful world" or "Time after Time".

I've always been into instrumental music, but As Dave said, the voice is the ultimate instrument, when the singer is really great, and not just what passes for great to the average non-musician listener these days.

[This message was edited by Jim Phelps on 20 December 2005 at 01:30 PM.]

Post by **Dave Mudgett** » 20 Dec 2005 6:21 pm

The entire field of instrumental jazz is about great instrumentalists. Bird, Diz, Miles, Wes, and so on through the present time. Mostly the same with classical music. There are people like Buchanan, Gatton, Eric Johnson, Yngvie Malmsteen, and many others in rock, blues, and other styles. There were Speedy West and Jimmy Bryant, Joe Maphis and Larry Collins, and others in a more country vein. I've seen many local instrumentalists co-front bands with a singer, and I've done it myself. Instrumental rock bands like Los Straitjackets pack good-sized rooms.

I do agree, however, that the lowest common denominator for most "folks in radioland" is the singer. But most club owners will book anything that makes the cash register go "kaching, kaching". IMO.

Andy Greatrix · Post by **Andy Greatrix** » 20 Dec 2005 7:17 pm

The voice is a fretless instrument. Some voices are also as soulful as Jimmy Day's steel playing. Ray Charles, Lefty Frizzel and George Jones come to mind.