The Steel Guitar Forum

Ok this one may get the blood going..

taking the other side...Devil's advocate...

maybe some Steel players play softer than others because they do not want to be heard ? ( tentative )

Maybe they are in a band with a really savvy Guitar player ?

Maybe they are unsure of what they are playing ?

Maybe they actually don't know how to play HWY 40 Blues ?

Maybe the guitar player hears a LAG and picks it up on purpose ?

Maybe the band leader told the Guitar player..play strong because without you the song will fall apart ?

Maybe the Guitar player has a TWIN and the Steel player has a N112 ?

maybe the Guitar player doesn't care what everyone else thinks, especially a Steel guy who gets to sit down all night ?

just having fun

been on both sides of the fence, still am...

Actually, whats worse than a Steel player complaining about a loud Tele player ?

Another Tele player complaining about the same Tele player in the same band !

maybe the Tele picker is a member of a secret society to rid the world of soft playing Steel players ?

just having fun..

tp ( tele picker)

PS:

remind me to write myself a note

Dear Self, turn down when on Tele, Turn UP when on Steel ..uhh..or vice versa...

A very topical thread going along, but one obvious thing that hasn't been mentioned... the condition your ears are in, compared to everyone around you. Age and 'diminished capacity' in certain higher frequencies may cause a player to 'compensate' just to hear himself/herself adequately. You want someone to flame? Try telling them they need to get their HEARING checked!

I have to agree with the comments made by Dave M and Jim S about drummers. It seems that the drummers always raise the level of volume, and the guitarists turn up the amps in order to be heard over them.

Here's a radical thought. What about the idea of a semi-acoustic band with no bass player and drummer?

I know it's heresy, but I bet such a band would not have a volume problem.

Here's a radical thought. What about the idea of a semi-acoustic band with no bass player and drummer?

Sometimes we do play drummerless. It definitely is easier to keep the volume under control. But I'd usually rather play with a good drummer who has great time and can keep it under control.

I've only had the opportunity to play my guitar with two steel guitar players this year Dan Tyack,and Tommy Dodd,We all had Major fun so I guess that I don't ever need to play with any of you whiners,I was just getting ready to order a Hilton volume pedal Nah!!!forget that.

A Tele on the bridge pup through a twin is definitely something that can rip the top of your head right on off. Tele's are just plain bright guitars, which is why I love 'em! It seems that a lot of steel's are being set to be darker and fuller, which translates to less cut on the stage. Add a volume pedal into the mix and there you are!

You want to compete with that bright Tele without causing internal bleeding from excessive volume on stage, get that steel tone brighter!

I play in a band with a guitar player who uses a Guild Starfire and a Fender Jag through a Marshall JCM 800 combo. I use a little Fender Princeton Recording Amp or even a Pro Jr. and I cut right over the top, zero problems. In fact, I've more that once had the other players, including the drummer ask me to turn down The Hammond player has a 40-watt leslie which he'll peg and he can still get washed out by the other players. It all about how the tones mix together.

Timbral balance is a key to good stage volume and I wish more bands would spend more time on it.

well, Tele's certainly are bright but did you all know that it has a Treble KNOB which actually does turn ? And a MID PUP selector switch ?

Maybe the REAL answer is for Tele pickers to bring a Strat instead ! But we would need a new thread

Last night I just happened to mention to my band mate Tele player as he was adjusting the countless pedals on the floor for a NON BRIGHT tone..I just casually mentioned..why don't you just roll back the treble pot say 1/4 turn ? He looked at me like I was from another planet..maybe I am...

Just for the sake of conversation, I play Steel and Tele thru my 2x12 Hot Rod Deville , I never change the amp settings..I set it up for the Steel. I use an AB box and the only pedal I use for the Tele is a Sparkle Drive...I generally play in the middle PUP position for solo's and the front PUP for chords. The Sparkle drive can really tame the HI end of the Tele if set up appropriately. I recommend one to ALL Tele pickers.

tp ( also a Strat picker)

Tony Prior wrote:I use an AB box and the only pedal I use for the Tele is a Sparkle Drive...I generally play in the middle PUP position for solo's and the front PUP for chords. The Sparkle drive can really tame the HI end of the Tele if set up appropriately. I recommend one to ALL Tele pickers.

Yup, all tube screamer type pedals truncate the signal, both on the top AND the bottom. A Sparkle Drive, of course, lets you blend in the clean, non-distorted signal with the distored signal so you can get some of the bottom and top back (after a fashion.) I like the idea of the Sparkle Drive but I'm not fond of the 808 tone, so...

Another good box along these same lines is the Xotic BB Preamp. It's like a hot-rodded tube screamer with a good 2-band eq (bass/treble.) No clean signal blend, but it's a pretty hot tone with a Tele, and you can control the high-end spike quite effectively. It's not a cheap pedal, but it might be the last tube screamer you buy! A cheap version is the Digitech Bad Monkey, well worth owning.

I wonder sometimes if pickers don't realize what they are doing to the mix. Over the many years,I have worked with steel players, fiddlers, harmonicas, guitars, and pianos who played ALL the time (except the kick offs) and never stopped. Sometimes I believe these folks think they are playing "backup". There is nothing more annoying to me when I am trying to play a lead on a song than a steel man playing the melody at the same time, or "chiming" loudly, or a fiddler scraping away the whole time to some tune that only he knows. When I am playing guitar, I often dont play ANYTHING while the others are playing, except possibly some very quiet chord work. All the guys in the band I am currently with watch each other and make an extended effort to make sure the OTHER guy sounds good....I.E.....NO stars. It makes for a superb sound, but obviously we tromp on one another occaisionaly, or NO one steps in to take the lead because we were waitin' fer "the other guy". I also think a lot of this "working together" comes from what kind of music you were raised on, experiance, and just plain old age. In later life, it just ain't as important to get attention, it's more important to appreciate and contribute to, the beuty of the music we love to play. (or not play sometimes)

Banjos....see jaw harp and kazoos

There is a band called "American Made" that used to have 6 pieces. lead guitar, keyboards, bass, drums and one person who tripled on fiddle, mandolin and guitar (both lead and rhythm,) and a steel player who also played sax, banjo, and Harmonica. And all 6 members of the group sang.

And the members NEVER stepped on each other. The reason? They rehearsed, and they worked out who played when. Their steel player told me they made written outlines of every tune, assigning each fill or ride to one member of the group, or sometimes 2 members who would work out some sort of harmony or call and response thing, and all the other members either laid out or supported whoever was playing at the moment.

The result was that not only did they not step on each other, but their music was more interesting and varied because different instruments would be featured at different times within the same song.

They also took the same approach with vocals and harmonies.

They still exist, but they are down to 4 or 5 pieces now, and only 2 of the original members are still with them. They play a lot in Nevada.

The point is that a little rehearsal can go a long way to solving these problems.

Yeah the real reason is the steel player is playing through a wimpy NV112 ....get some balls guys and get a big grunty NV1000 --- or an more powerful rack system and smoke those Tele players.

They rehearsed, and they worked out who played when. Their steel player told me they made written outlines of every tune, assigning each fill or ride to one member of the group, or sometimes 2 members who would work out some sort of harmony or call and response thing, and all the other members either laid out or supported whoever was playing at the moment.

When I can work with people on that level, it is sonic nirvana for me. But the last time I tried to get anyone to take this approach, I got a unanimous catcall of "Why don't you stop being such an uptight &()$*@%# engineer and just play your ^+#)*$ guitar."

I completely disagree with that assessment. Having this stuff well worked out and well-practiced in advance allows band members to really relax and stretch out at a deeper level, without the usual bar band BS.

Tony, I completely agree - the treble knob is there for a reason, and on a typically bright Tele, "It's a good feeling to know." Only other Tele players think that a Tele can't be too bright. Van Halen just removed the tone control from his Frankenstein - "Hey, nobody uses these things."

Do not get me wrong - no musician who knows me well will tell you I can't part a greasy pompadour at 100 paces with my Tele tone if I want to. But there's a time and a place.

A Super Twin through a couple of 15s will do it.

the treble knob is there for a reason

Hey, mine has a volume knob too!!! And I just found a bunch of knobs and stuff on my amp !!! Don't let this get around, but all of those knobs turn both ways.

A Super Twin through a couple of 15s will do it.

Oh, yeah - it will alright. But unless it's a real big stage and room, I'd rather get us to turn down some. By using just a little restraint, it is possible to play with a reasonable stage volume but still plenty of fire and energy.

I'll use earplugs if I have to, but I hate 'em. When the crowd is all wearing earplugs, you know there's something wrong. I see this way too often. What the blazes is the point?

Hey, the other thing is that, where I am and in larger cities I've been in lately, clubs are increasingly intolerant of high decibel levels. Customers gripe, people in the neighborhood complain, noise ordinances start getting enacted. Why not deal with it before a federal case gets made?

Alan Tanner is right. Some pickers need to just NOT play sometimes. This is very true in regads to fiddle players and steel players. Nothing fatigues the ear more than the constant presence of these two instruments. As a steel player I love laying out and listning to the vocals. When I come in I have some thing to say. A lead player who also plays rythmn neads the preriquisent sense to know the difference. Don D.

Dave Mudgett wrote:I'd rather get us to turn down some.

Me too. But there are some groups and rooms where I have no say in anything. You either bring what's necessary to be heard, or you might as well stay home.

In smaller rooms where the band is trying to keep the volume down, it tends to be the drummer who causes the most problems. Apparently many drummers just have never learned how to do anything but play all out all the time. And their hearing tends to be shot. They usually have a rock background, but I've even encountered some jazz drummers who play too loud. There is no volume control on a set of drums. So if they refuse to back off, there is no hope.

I play a Tele sometimes, and a Strat, and a Les Paul...
NEVER through anything stouter that a Super Reverb, and usually either a Vox AC30, or even an AC15. I have actually been told by a steel player to TURN DOWN---and he's playin' through one of them Peavey 400's. Not my fault, though. The guy had every tone knob on his amp set at "0," and his right foot sat flat on the floor, NEXT to his volume pedal.It's all about dynamics, and girls.

Dave - believe me, I've been there. When I get into a free-for-all blues/jazz/rock jam situation, I'm generally tearing my hair out at the volume and people stomping on everything. The country jams are completely different. I'm pretty lucky to be playing with people right now who get it.

I have a project starting up, which is a country-soul thing with Tele, PSG, B3, bass, drums and a singer who can sing the range - you know, O.V. Wright, Al Green, Conway Twitty, Syl Johnson, James Carr, George Jones, Sam Moore, Delbert, some Ray Price and Ray Charles, and so on. The plan is for me to do both Tele and PSG, no other guitarist. I've worked with the B3 player for 10 years, he and I have a system to stay out of each other's way. I think I have a rhythm section that gets it. We wanna leave lots of open space for the singer, do some cool instrumentals, check egos at the door. To make this work, we have to deal with this issue, which is probably why I'm yackin' so much about it here. We'll see.

The last problem tele player I worked with was great until the whiskey kicked in. His volume was directly proportional to how much was left in the bottle. I never had a problem being heard,though. Peavey Session 500's have a way of cutting through any noise with the volume around 4 or 5.I won't put up with that anymore. I use my Nash 112 and never have to compete to be heard. The tele player does not drink,is the main singer and has been a bandleader most of his career. He is always looking for the best total band sound. It is easy to play good and an added bonus: I can hear at the end of the night

Twayn Williams wrote:
Another good box along these same lines is the Xotic BB Preamp

yes excellent preamp.., I prefer the Xotic AC ( the yellow one ) and the price is way up there , but at the end of the day well worth it. I think the Sparkle Drives come in at around $125, I traded an AMP for mine.

These pedals make the $50 pedals sound like..uhmmm

$50 pedals !

On my last trip to Nville, I was in a small guitar shop with HI END gear and I was plugged into a Badcat (Hot Cat 30) with the Xotic AC pedal..good thing I didn't bring the Credit Card with me !

tp

excellent clip above , but it wasn't loud enough !

Back in my earliest years in Ct, one of the leading Guitar players in the area, Link Chamberlain( RIP) well know East Coast Guitar Guru, Jazz, rock, blues..
played only a Tele...

I have a theory.... try this one on for size. Your amp on stage is your monitor to hear yourself. If it is positiioned correctly (i.e up on a stand, aimed at your ears) and you can hear yourself clearly that should be sufficient volume. This is provided you are thru the mains either via a mic or DI box to mixing board. Why does everyone think they have to carry the job from stage...not necessary. If you can hear yourself clearly then that should be enough volume. If all on stage lived by this credo would not have a problem. Louder is not prettier nor better......get it through your heads loud players. IMHO.
Regards,
Wayne-bob

Wayne Wallett wrote:I have a theory.... try this one on for size. Your amp on stage is your monitor to hear yourself. If it is positiioned correctly (i.e up on a stand, aimed at your ears) and you can hear yourself clearly that should be sufficient volume. This is provided you are thru the mains either via a mic or DI box to mixing board. Why does everyone think they have to carry the job from stage...not necessary. If you can hear yourself clearly then that should be enough volume. If all on stage lived by this credo would not have a problem. Louder is not prettier nor better......get it through your heads loud players. IMHO.
Regards,
Wayne-bob

Gotta agree with this...