The Steel Guitar Forum

the mindset of where to play and when not to play is the important factor. Yes, we can all sit at home and woodshed with AJ, GS etc..and that is a great practice tool, not just for where to play and where to lay back..but for the music in general. This is something I do very often as well...

But keep in mind , this is a studio planned ,produced cut..if you are playing out and the band just happens to play one of these " rehearsed " tunes, your rehearsal time only counts if the band plays it just like the record, which in most cases, they will not...

for me, I happen to be very blessed with these types of tunes, I will get a call from my 2 bandmates ( brothers) and they will ask me to learn USA Today ( example) exactly like the record..meaning ..I should play similar phrases in the same places..Matt on Tele will do the same..Very often we play these tunes cold with never before playing them as a unit..and most times they come out as some of the best tunes we play. The only thing we may discuss ahead of time (I mean like 10 seconds before we play the song) is who covers the Fiddle parts, seeing we have no Fiddle, generally it is me...

But it requires other bandmates to have the exact same discipline...

Learning when not to play is an ART..it requires steadfast discipline...especially when there may be another player who is stepping all over YOU even when you are supposed to be playing. Just because we can play it like the record and know where the Steel Parts are does not mean we know where to play and where not to play...it just means you know that song just like the record.

Most singers and Guitar players..( not the seasoned ones) are not thinking Steel Guitars..They are thinking.."We got a Steel Player"....

they are thinking from another place..Knowing when to play and when not to play offers us the challenge of understanding just that..where are they coming from...and you really do not have much time to think about it...

When I work with a band as a sit in player I generally use the "You take it" rule with the Guitar player...you will learn in the first 2 or 3 songs where this player is coming from..At some point he should point over to you and say "Take it"...when that happens , communication has occured...

this isn't just for solo's but for backing the vocals as well..which for the most part is where Lead Instruments get cluttered anyway...

Ok..now on to the Keyboard player..

Beginners courses will not and cannot teach this stuff..there are players who have been playing for decades, obviously not beginners, who have never learned this stuff..It's kinda like what Larry mentions above, you have to find a way to join the conversation.. learn when to speak UP at certain times, and SOFTER at other times..

It's an ART..and sometimes not a pretty picture !

happy Sunday

t

<font size="1" color="#8e236b"><p align="center">[This message was edited by Tony Prior on 15 January 2006 at 04:30 AM.]</p></FONT>

James, I didn't read through all of the posts, but Jeff Newman had a course out called something like bandstand back up which taught these techniques very well.

Wayne Baker

I heard Jimmy Day say, 'what you don't play is as important as what you 'do' play.' Usually there is at least 3 sets per nite. The people will hear what you know before the nite is over. It's good not to be a 'hot dog' or 'ham'. That's one of the things that separate the pro's from the amateurs. All this is the same simple learning of proper educate. Give someone else a chance to talk (or play).

Personally, I always felt that, short of playing with real people, the best training was just to play over regular CDs, as if you were part of the band.

Sometimes, there's enough room on the track for you to be one more piece in the band, sometimes, it's already full and you have to become one of the players' shadows... In all cases, it teaches you how to blend in.

Whenever I feel like I'm getting rusty, I put my i-tune player on "random", and let it run for a couple of hours, just playing over whatever comes next... No pause, no retakes.

Just my two cents...

I attended Jeff Newmans' last seminar at the TSGA show and one of his comments was; The more you learn (know) the less you play.
At another seminar he said Pete Drake was famous for three BIG licks, slide up, slide down, and his best was when you anticipated something, he did nothing at all.
I wish I could do it all.
RG

.<font size="1" color="#8e236b"><p align="center">[This message was edited by James Morehead on 15 January 2006 at 04:48 PM.]</p></FONT>

James,
After some sleep and a bite to eat I re-read your post. I think I didn't initially get the point that you were focusing on "beginners" who only used rhythm tracks to learn to. This was my fault, as you really expressed yourself pretty clearly. I agree that it shouldn't be the only learning tool, but I'm not sure if it's the primary reason why some people don't know when and when not to play. Hopefully, each person will realize that just playing along to backing tracks, doesn't qualify them as a well-rounded musician, in most cases, and there's still plenty more to learn and experience to gain.
Bottom line -- I agree that it's not the proper training if it's the only training, but if it's just one of their learning tools, I think it can be OK.
-- Marc

James, IMHO you nailed IT!
CUSTOMER SERVICE IS WHAT IT'S All ABOUT.
BE happy and enjoy!
RG

Is anyone familiar with these courses by Herby Wallace? He has 6 different courses where he teaches you to how to back up a singer.

Andy, Can you tell me more or should I contact HW?
RG

That article by Jeff Newman I still remember, because it is part of what got me thinking about this issue very early on. And that thinking also got me through my first gigs, when I didn't have a whole lot in my bag of tricks. A modicum of silence is the best trick in the bag. The sooner you can learn that lesson, the sooner you can safely clamber onto the bandstand.

Still, learning to play long melody pieces like some of the courses get you doing is a great thing, because it builds your knowledge of how to find the sounds you are hearing in your head. Just don't do it on the bandstand.

Rodney, I don't have his courses but they sound like the ticket. His courses are available right here on our Forum, just click on my underlined link above.

Andy, Thanks for your reply. I did check it out. This is what I need. This FORUM and MEMBERS like YOU are what I like about these efforts. Thanks to b0b for starting this site.
RG

I totally agree that learning long melodies and learning positions is a great thing. I also think it teaches the student to be aware of what groups of notes belong in a certain place to a create a desired phrasing. I think prolonged exposure to these types of methods might be where the problem comes in. Just from having played guitar with a fine fiddle player on the bandstand, I learned a while back that there is a time to play and time to be silent or simply strum chords. But, as I was playing a song a couple of days ago on steel, I suddenly realized I was actually playing the singers part and when I should have been playing fills, I was doing nothing, because the melody line was not doing anything at that point. I began to really examine what I was doing and realized that I was actually teaching myself to play when I should not be playing. I think I can still take those melodic ideas and make them useful for fills, but I am going to be careful in the future not to get to caught up in playing all the time and be more particular about where I am playing. Some of the suggestions here have been well taken and I plan to look into more tracks with vocals on them like I obtained from Billy Phelps..Thanks...James

James
I'd also like to recommend to everyone on the forum Scotty's book "Mel Bay Presents Backup Steel Guitar by DeWitt Scott." Don't know if it's still in print, but Scotty probably has copies.

No teacher can address all of the many varied problems that relatively inexperienced players may have in a single course, and each producer of steel courses, as I said in another thread, makes certain assumptions about what his constituency would like to learn. Invariably, some players' problems or questions aren't addressed.

Being unsure about what to do while backing up a singer is certainly a problem to some players. A more basic problem, IMHO, is the inability to hear, find, and play a clean melody. This is definitely a problem many players experience quite early in the learning process. By teaching the melodies to classic songs, a teacher like me hopefully is giving the student the ability to find the positions whereby he can create his OWN ideas.

The little licks played behind singers are mini-melodies. If a player knows where to find his melody notes, he's got the music part of backup somewhat covered.

I understand where you're coming from regarding playing full songs in a vacuum as opposed to playing in real-life situations.

In my experience finding the notes on the guitar is done best in solitary study, either with a teacher and/or a course.

Learning to play backup correctly is a two part process: part music, part bandtand etiquette. The music part... the mini-melodies for common backup licks... can be learned apart from a "real-life" situation, but stage or performance etiquette is usually best learned not from a book or course but from other musicians the player works or plays with. Most of us learn this etiquette by getting on the wrong side of more experienced musicians and getting an angry earful about when to play and when not to play.

The young, enthusiastic player almost always is so happy to be playing and showing "his stuff," he's oblivious to the fact that the rest of the band and the people in the club are not as enthralled with his playing as he is. Again, this is taught more by experience and intent listening than by a course, though courses can certainly address this topic.

Heck, I may do one myself in the future. I have a lecture that I give my one-on-one students about the philosophy of backing up singers and other soloists. But Jeff, Herby, and Scotty do address this topic quite well in their works.

EDIT: James, I see from the post you put up as I was writing this one that we have similar ideas about learning this stuff. The whole accumulation of musical knowledge comes from the entire musical environment we place ourselves in, both solitary and ensemble.



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Herb's Steel Guitar Pages
Texas Steel Guitar Association


<font size="1" color="#8e236b"><p align="center">[This message was edited by Herb Steiner on 15 January 2006 at 03:36 PM.]</p></FONT>

<SMALL>...each member is playing "pedal to the metal...</SMALL>

Yeah, we all know about that. No matter how many instruments are on stage, every one wants to be heard equally! Sad part is, that's not the way it's supposed to be. Thanks to rock and roll (don't slam me for this comment, I played it myself for years), the bass and drums, along with the keys want "equal notice" or equal volume. I say bullhockey. Like too many chefs spoiling the soup, too many loud lead instruments spoil the sound, and drums and bass have become lead instruments. It gets that cluttered, busy, "droning" sound we hear on the radio constantly. There's no space, no breathing room, no millisecond in the entire song that the vu-meter's not pegged.

No wonder the really good, simple stuff that's rarely released nationally, like Norah's "Don't Know Why" sails up the charts so fast. This type of stuff is <u>great</u> to learn backup work with. There's spaces in there that you can add things, and it still sounds good.

(edited addendum) There's plenty of records with sparse instrumentation, and <u>these</u> are ideal for use in practicing your backup work. Back-up is 90% of what we do, and unless you're good at it, you'll never have success in a band environment. When I started playing, I wore out my Jim Reeves albums playing them and practicing backup stuff. He had no steel in most of his hits, so there was plenty space to add complementary licks and pads. It also helped me find key centers playing with keyboards and harmony voices in the mix. I simply can't imagine learning by playing tasteful stuff to a Shania Twain record because there's already too much going on "up front". Much of today's music reminds me of a marching band, with everyone pounding out notes and sound as loud as they can, but no one really "shining" among all the ruckus. Come to think of it, I guess that's why marching bands wear those fancy uniforms, big hats, and have all that choreography...there's just very little else of interest going on. <font size="1" color="#8e236b"><p align="center">[This message was edited by Donny Hinson on 17 January 2006 at 02:14 PM.]</p></FONT>

Quote from Herb: "The whole accumulation of musical knowledge comes from the entire musical environment we place ourselves in, both solitary and ensemble."

EXACTLY my point, I wish I had been able to articulate myself that well. BUT, there has to be a better way to learn that than screwing up on the bandstand, or maybe that is the best way ?...James

I can recommend Scotty's "Back-Up Steel" book that Herb mentioned. I'm working my way through it now and it's good for giving you a feel for playing around a singer. It also has the advantage of being relatively cheap as it's currently available as a download only from Mel Bay. Here's the link. For some reason you don't have to pay for the back-up tracks, just click the Download Audio link. THIS STUFF IS FREE! The tacks themselves are high quality (just ignore the cheesy lyrics) but annoyingly they seem to have been remastered without the original 2 channel split for isolating the backing from the lead. Also most of the course is designed round one song. Still, I can say I've learned some things about when not to play, and a good few excellent fill-ins.

I've often thought there should be a universally accepted language of nods and eyebrow raises between musicians that leaves no doubt as to who's turn it is. Has anyone ever sat down with their bandmates and worked this out?<font size="1" color="#8e236b"><p align="center">[This message was edited by Jonathan Shacklock on 16 January 2006 at 02:47 PM.]</p></FONT>

I actually think "screwing up on the bandstand" IS the best way to learn, because there are CONSEQUENCES for incorrect behavior. You piss off the rest of the band.

When you're in your music room, practicing the backup licks by playing with a Jeff Newman track with Bob Browning singing, screw-ups have no consequences, so they don't get burned into the "don't do that again" area of the psyche.


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Herb's Steel Guitar Pages
Texas Steel Guitar Association

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<font size="1" color="#8e236b"><p align="center">[This message was edited by Gene Jones on 16 January 2006 at 12:28 PM.]</p></FONT>

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<font size="1" color="#8e236b"><p align="center">[This message was edited by Gene Jones on 16 January 2006 at 12:26 PM.]</p></FONT>

Some people excel at non-verbal communication, others don't. The system of nods and shoulder twists (in place of pointing a finger at someone and hollering "NOW IT"S YOUR TURN") works well if everyone looks for it. The system breaks down if you don't look (or choose to ignore yer bandmate...).

It seems to me that if an instrumentalist, in this thread from James, originally about a steel player, is stuck in playing melody lines, they either don't know what else to play, they don't have the confidence to play anything different, or else they think it's the right thing to be playing and want to be heard more. It could be in the training, as is his hypothesis-but in my experience, I have one case to tell you about.

One of the things I participate in is our church band. So this is different, you can't just kick a guy out unless they are obviously atrocious, and someone needs to sit them down and explain that they can come back and give it another shot after a substantial period having lessons and/or practice. A much different situation than a working band.

We have a guy that plays harmonica that plays the melody line on about 80% of the songs. It's not the worst thing in the world, he pretty much gets the notes right-but he should be playing fills and embellishments to complement the vocals, and add something to the song. He gets his solo shots on intros and breaks, so it isn't like he doesn't receive opportunities to be heard. But there are a few of us that take turns leading on the music-selecting songs, doing arrangements, assigning solos, etc. I have to admit that I dread it when I find out he is going to be in "my" band for that week. Not a very Christian attitude, I know, but I'm just being honest.

The harmonica guy has a system where he takes the sheet music and transposes (or maybe it should be translates?) the notation to a form of harmonica tab. So he practices these songs by learning the melody, but instead of having an awareness of the chord changes and just going for it in the properly keyed harmonica-he likes to stick with the melody thing-playing the same thing the vocalists are singing.

I have pulled him aside a couple of times and very diplomatically and with great care, like I'm walking on eggshells, have pointed out to him that this is not what a harmonica should be doing, as the singers already have the melody covered. Our band director has done the same thing-but I think we have almost resigned ourselves to this, because it doesn't change.

He does show flashes of brilliance, though. Amy Grant did a song called "Do You Remember The Time" that one of our female singers does a killer job on, and its a good one to play for the congregation while the collection basket is being passed, and folks are sitting down. The harp guy, once on this song last year, played a solo during the break that would have made Charlie McCoy proud! I don't know if this was Divine intervention or what, but he really nailed it!

So I have brought that up to him a few times, how great that sounded, but he still doesn't, for the most part, play anything beyond the melody.

The dilemma I have coming up is that several of us from the church are forming a side band to play mostly secular music, with a few gospel songs thrown in, for farmers market gigs, summer evenings on the town green type stuff, etc. Because it's open to the church musicians and singers, one can volunteer to be a member. The harmonica guy has volunteered-but now this is going to be a different scenario playing in front of the general public. I'm sort of the unofficial leader of this side band, and I have to figure out a way to flat out tell this guy that his typical style of playing isn't going to cut it out there, without ticking him off too much or hurting his feelings.

But to go back to the original reason for this thread, even more than the training, it seems like a lack of confidence is what would be the reason for some guy, no matter the instrument, in sticking only with the melody-because it's safe, there's no going out on a limb involved.

We have a couple of the finest harp players alive living here in Sonoma County in Charlie Musselwhite and Norton Buffalo. When they are off the road and if they are willing to teach some lessons, I was even thinking of contacting them to see if one of them would be willing to give the guy in my church band a lesson or two, I'd be willing to dig into my own pocket to help contribute to the fee!



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Mark
<font size="1" color="#8e236b"><p align="center">[This message was edited by Mark Eaton on 16 January 2006 at 12:08 PM.]</p></FONT><font size="1" color="#8e236b"><p align="center">[This message was edited by Mark Eaton on 16 January 2006 at 01:05 PM.]</p></FONT><font size="1" color="#8e236b"><p align="center">[This message was edited by Mark Eaton on 16 January 2006 at 01:14 PM.]</p></FONT><font size="1" color="#8e236b"><p align="center">[This message was edited by Mark Eaton on 16 January 2006 at 01:17 PM.]</p></FONT><font size="1" color="#8e236b"><p align="center">[This message was edited by Mark Eaton on 16 January 2006 at 01:18 PM.]</p></FONT><font size="1" color="#8e236b"><p align="center">[This message was edited by Mark Eaton on 16 January 2006 at 01:20 PM.]</p></FONT><font size="1" color="#8e236b"><p align="center">[This message was edited by Mark Eaton on 16 January 2006 at 01:21 PM.]</p></FONT><font size="1" color="#8e236b"><p align="center">[This message was edited by Mark Eaton on 16 January 2006 at 01:27 PM.]</p></FONT><font size="1" color="#8e236b"><p align="center">[This message was edited by Mark Eaton on 17 January 2006 at 11:48 AM.]</p></FONT>

It would take months to get through it, but along with a good steel guitar course and an instructor, if one could listen to the complete discography of Paul Franklin-this would be an outstanding learning tool.

I was just listening to the title cut from Mark Knopfler's album that came out last year, "Shangri-La."

I'm a huge Knopfler fan along with being totally in awe of Paul's playing.

When that album first came out I remember listening to the above mentioned song and thinking, "I wish Paul was more up front on that song, and he had a spot to take a ride."

If you have heard it, then you know that it's a pretty mellow song, and Paul's playing is quite understated. Knopfler's lead work is exquisite.

But Paul's playing is also exquisite. The song has an ethereal quality, and I realize now that his playing fits the song to a tee. It flows around and underneath MK's guitar and vocals. It is perfect.

I took a dobro workshop from one of the very best last month, Rob Ickes. One of the things he really emphasizes along with different techniques is to LISTEN to the song to figure out what you can contribute.

That should be obvious-but apparently to a lot of musicians it isn't. I think Paul could teach a class on listening, and we could all show up without even bringing an instrument and it would be worth every penny!

It made me think of my harmonica player post above. You can be back in the mix, play something to complement the song, and hit the nail on the head. No steel guitar player knows how to play the right thing for the song any better than Paul Franklin!

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Mark
<font size="1" color="#8e236b"><p align="center">[This message was edited by Mark Eaton on 17 January 2006 at 01:02 PM.]</p></FONT><font size="1" color="#8e236b"><p align="center">[This message was edited by Mark Eaton on 17 January 2006 at 01:03 PM.]</p></FONT>

<SMALL>I watched Ricky Davis play last Tuesday night, and I WATCHED closely. There were times I saw him set his bar down and watch the guitar player do a solo.</SMALL>

For me, two events: Ralph Mooney on an old Soundstage program with WJ, sitting with his left hand in his lap and right hand out flat, keeping time gently on the strings (some sort of percussion effect?).

Later, a piano man and bandleader who complimented me by saying "on time, in tune, and you know when to lay out."

Thanks to both.